Why does Circle of Healing have the Self-Care penalty?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m okay with CoH being nerfed but the perk’s wording suggests that you can heal yourself at the regular rate and at an increased 75% rate.
I’m pretty sure that self-healing is 16 charges and not 32 charges by default. Before the nerf, the fact that self-healing with CoH took 16 seconds suggested that base self-healing took 32 charges and the 100% bonus doubled your healing rate.
Wouldn’t that imply that med-kits also double your self-healing speed without saying it?
Again, I’m okay with the nerf, but shouldn’t it be working properly to then find the sweet spot to balance it?
Comments
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Time = Base Speed / (1 + Modifiers)
Base speed is 1 c/s making healing (16 charges) take 16 seconds. They just modify c/s
Self care/boons reduces base charges per second to 0.5. Self care penalty is done before any bonuses are applied.
Medkits just heal at 1 c/s I believe when self caring besides the green medkit.
Normal self care
16s / (1.0 - 0.5)
16s / 0.5
32s to self care
Boon self care before nerf
16s / ((1.0 - 0.5) * 2.0)
16s / 1.0
16s to self care
Boon self care after nerf
16s / ((1.0 - 0.5) * 1.75)
16s / 0.875
~18.3 seconds to self care
Boon self care before nerf + Medkit
16s / (1.0 * 2.0)
16s / 2.0
8.0 seconds to self care
Boon self care after nerf + Medkit
16s / (1.0 * 1.75)
16s / 1.75
~9.1 seconds to self care
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This should be how they work if I'm not mistaken and seems to match up
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that's the maths behind it, but OP is asking why circle of healing applies the 50% debuff before increasing all speeds by 75% when it isn't stipulated anywhere in the perk description it works like this.
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Completely missed that part so I think they just forgot to add it to the description or assumed people would know because it's the same wording as self care perk.
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i hope they just forgot to add it, but its also possible they just copy/pasted the code for self-care, forgot to remove that aspect, and decided they liked it so kept it. we won't know without an official statement, sadly.
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No healing always took 16 charges. Self care doesn't "add charges" it just makes it so you heal at 0.5 charges per second. Now that that's out of the way imagine the title of the post without the healing speed penalty with the 75% increase. Yeah it would be busted to have 9.1 second self heals with just a single perks, items and other perks not included.
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Essentially it comes down to the fact that they worded and/or coded the perk badly when it was added.
According to the wiki, they just made it so that anyone in the boon's buff just has the Self-Care perk invisibly, and a healing speed modifier. I'm guessing when they wrote the description they overlooked that the penalty to healing speed is a part of Self-Care, not just some innate fact of healing yourself.
The perk originally should have read "Survivors within the boon totem's range can heal themselves without needing a Med-Kit, and gain a 100% healing speed bonus when healing others."
Now it's more complex as you don't heal yourself at 100% speed, so it should say something like "Survivors within the boon totem's range can heal themselves without needing a Med-Kit. Decreases the speed that you heal yourself by 25% and increases the speed that you heal others by 75%."
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Yes, but that's what I mean. The perk should be working properly so it could be rebalanced appropriately.
I'd be okay with nerfing CoH to 50%, but remove the self-care penalty so it's just a flat 50% buff to all healing speeds. That way no matter what it's roughly a 10 sec heal. I think that's more reasonable.
Actually, a 60% buff makes the heal take exactly 10 seconds. In my opinion, that seems fair.
Post edited by Kaioken99 on1 -
Thanks for the math. It's weird that CoH has a penalty to self-healing without saying it. It kind of implies that all self-healing actions have an inherent 50% penalty when that's only exclusive to Self-Care healing.
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CoH uses residual code from self care. However, you benefit from CoH's healing buff while incurring the penalty.
Initially, the 50% debuff and 100% buff would cancel out, so the final outcome would be 16 seconds. The previous tiers of 90/95% had red bars to reflect this.
Now, the buff has been lowered to 75%, so the 16 seconds are now 18. The difference is negligible, mostly, especially if you do the smart thing and use the perk *with* a medkit.
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That would make CoH even stronger than it is now. Fast and accessible self-heals are the main reason CoH is so strong, less so the hyperspeed heals on other survivors.
The reason why self-healing takes twice as long is because it removes a person from the equation. Essentially, when you use the perk Self-Care, your heal takes the 16 seconds you would sit there being healed as well as the 16 seconds another survivor would spend healing you. A basic heal may take 16 seconds to complete, but it takes 32 seconds of team time. CoH before today used to halve that - 16 seconds to heal yourself, 8 seconds to heal someone else. Now it's a tiny bit longer, but the double/half time remains.
Making healing someone else take the same amount of time as self-healing means there's never any reason to heal someone else. That just takes twice as much time from the team as that person self-healing would.
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So what you're saying is remove the self care penalty but keep the self care. Nah that would be busted. In no world would 10 second SOLO heals for everyone be balanced. Like the perk is working properly idk how it's not. It gives you the perk Self care inside its radius but meanwhile it increases ALL heal speeds by 75%. so the 50% penalty you would have (0.5 charges per second) turned into a 0.875 charges per second which is still an 18.2 second self heal.
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But then shouldn’t the perk be properly worded as “the speed of healing other survivors is increased by 75% and survivors can heal themselves without a medkit”? Right now it’s worded in a way that suggests that all healing speeds are buffed by 75% and that’s kind of misleading.
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I honestly don't get how we got from:
COH has strange wording
to:
We should change it so it takes 10 seconds to heal no matter what.
Why would one of the most free perks need a buff in the first place?
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Shouldn’t the perk tell you that you have a 50% penalty to self-healing then? Because the 50% penalty belongs to Self-Care.
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Just BHVR things I guess
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It would make it easier to rebalance. The buff could be lower. It could even be Botany Knowledge numbers. But it would make it clearer what the boost should be in order to keep it from being overpowered. (If you even want to give it a boost to healing speed. The perk could’ve just been “allows all survivors to heal themselves without a medkit” and it would still be good.)
Technically, the perk is worded in a way that all survivors would be able to heal in 8 seconds (before the nerf) no matter what.
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People will still be running it pretty consistently after the nerf. A good medkit w/ botany and you can get really fast heals to reset for hook saves making tag pressure even more useless. People will rarely be injured on gens or in the open. It might take some pressure off gens, but on certain maps it's a serious problem where the entire main building and edges of it are covered on the second floor. It's a nerf to a lot of the weaker killers who can't convert injures into downs consistently and quickly. RPD library is the worst of them all with a time waster vault at the top and it being far in the corner. The sad part of it all is the counter is to just tunnel survivors out since if you waste time in chase and you let them get away 2-3 gens pop for no benefit possibly even a boon up to heal off of too.
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Maybe that's just my take on it, but it makes sense to me that all instances of you healing yourself without a med-kit are slower than with one. I somehow never questioned that CoH would work the exact same in that regard as does Self-Care.
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wwwwwwait, are you suggesting COH give you an infinite 10 second self heal instead of the current 20 (16 pre nerf) because even with the lowered healing buff, that'd be ABSOLUTELY insane. i would argue that's far stronger than current coh.
i agree that the wording is bad but all you need to change it to is "75% healing buff to ALTRUISTIC heals" and that's it. then the secondary condition would be "heal yourself at a 25% penalty"
that 75% buff should not be applying to medkits because of how insanely dumb it is, so this would rebalance that and make the description clearer.
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It could be lower but it would have to depend on what the devs want CoH to be. A simple medkit for all survivors, or a buff to all healing speeds that also allows survivors to have a medkit (how it’s currently worded).
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It could simply be survivors can heal themselves without a medkit and it’d be great. The way it’s worded implies that self-healing inherently has a 50% penalty when that penalty is exclusive to Self-Care.
In your opinion, should CoH be simply a free medkit for all survivors, or be a buff to all healing speeds and a free medkit to all survivors?
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Well more like 18 seconds post nerf but yeah 10 second self heal would be stupid to add.
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yup, i have used it every single game since its release and can confidently say COH would still be insanely strong if it only had 1 of its 2 effects. however, if i were to pick one, it's the self-heal with 0 buff to healing speed. bringing a medkit and getting 3-4 heals at more 75% extra speed is ridiculous. medkits on their own are already extremely good, and this is literally overkill, then killing the overkill with bullets made of overkill.
however, to answer your question, i would be OK with COH's buff only being 50% or so and applying o n l y to teammates. an infinite medkit that heals in 16s + 10 second altruistic heals is still really useful.
all the description would need to be is "Gain a 50% altruistic heal speed boost and have the ability to heal yourself at normal speed without a medkit"
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sorry, you're probably right. i was applying the math to base 16 charges, not 32.
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I think we agree then. The reason why I said that it could be a 10 second self-heal and it'd be fair is because I believe the wording of the perk is intentional, so all healing speeds within the boon should be buffed. There shouldn't be a hidden penalty being applied to it.
If it's changed to just altruistic healing speeds being buffed, and also a regular medkit heal. I'd have no problems with it.
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But that is the case. If you look at CoH's code, which dataminers have done, it has a programmed self-healing penalty of 50%, just like SC.
I interpret this to mean that any self-healing not done with a med-kit is always going to have a penalty.
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Because self healing as an action is half as fast as healing. A meditation heals you in 16s because a meditation gives you a 100% buff by default (which can go higher). The way the word things is weird though I agree.
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Back when the game released, Self-Care would heal you at 80% of the regular heal speed. If that was never changed, that would be the norm for self-healing without a medkit.
If that is intended for self healing, then it should say so because to my knowledge, a self-healing penalty was just a Self-Care thing.
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The devs specifically adding a line of code to CoH that says it has a self-healing penalty of 50% would indicate to me that that is the standard they use for self-healing without a medkit.
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