What do you guys think of the potential handholding for Survivors?
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I understand that a lot of people have doubts about their competency, but there is no way forward that does not involve improving SoloQ. Whether they're competent from that step forward, it is still the only first step that can be made.
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I kind of like solo queue as it is. Admittedly it is partly because I no longer play in EU region, so the matches I get as survivor are better quality, more altruistic players.
I find SWF harder than solo because of information overload in voice comms.
It might be beneficial but needs to be tested. It;s too early to say how it might impact matches.
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RIP if it's not major changes/buffs
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It's not 'hand-holding' at all, it's simply making solo-queue survivor mode an ounce bit more practical and playable. It's a welcome addition and long overdue.
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Don't see a balance problem between swf and soloQ. Even in a group or solo you're playing against the same killer. In a group you can be more playing comp. but this is not affecting other survivor groups. The only gap is if you're playing as killer vs a swf or solo. But even then your hex totem is gone in seconds if you're not playing a trap killer.
In soloQ it's enough information if someone got hooked or be chased. And if I want more infos I can use perks. The people are not mad at me but I'm watching sometimes streamer walking around and pointing on other survivors while they're not realizing that they are doing the same.
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True but at the moment it needs to be more than just a step one side is lacking players and if they just decided to buff one side without compensation for the other and just have the "wait and see "mentality like most optimist now are trying to do it will cause this game to get its foot further in the grave than it is now.
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It may be way safer, and less hassle, but it also does not fix the massive gap.
It shortens it, by like 10 feet, if the gap were 500 feet wide.
The problem is that SWFS have voice comms, and this gives them so much info that SoloQs just don't have. Even casually playing with a mic is just THAT GOOD. And Killers have to stay balanced for the power SoloQs have, or SoloQ will be unplayable.
But that means SWFs will be the top of the heap, power-wise. Because Killers are weaker to keep SoloQ playable.
And I don't get this 'language barrier' argument. I never heard this argument in DoTA, Lol, Overwatch, Planetside 2, CS:GO. Etc. etc.
But everyone acts like DBD will have this ONE problem that no other teamwork-based game with voice comms has had, and think it invalidates balancing DBD properly.
I'm sorry; I still think we need to give SoloQs the ONE THING they lack that a SWF has; voice comms. Then balance around that. It's the only way to properly balance the game.
And yes; SWFs do have another thing SoloQ's lack; your teammates are mates you've known for months, if not years. You work well together because you think together. But 'teamwork skills' is not something that can be transferred, so I'm sticking to the one thing SWFs have that CAN be transferred; voice comms.
If we don't do this; BHVR will continue to give Killers Stealth Killers and Perks that theoretically work in an information blackout...which SWFs ignore because they give each other information at the speed of sound, literally.
Then those Killers smash SoloQs, and then those Killers get smashed by 2-4 people on mics. And we're back to talking about the power gap between 'The entire damn game' and SWFs.
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Just chiming in to say that while you've never heard of the language barrier problem before, it exists. It was something that annoyed me a lot while I was playing Overwatch and trying to get good at it- all the videos I'd watch would talk about how important communication is and how you should always be joining team chat, but I played in the EU servers, there was no guarantee everyone spoke English and a pretty large chance that at least one person wouldn't.
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So?
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Fair enough. I play on US servers for most games, myself.
I should have said 'I never saw people on the community forums talking about this problem', as I instead made a very short-sighted sounding comment as if it does not happen because I did not experience it. And I may be a snarky jerk, but I'm well aware I'm not the center of the universe. 😁
But even if I had made the proper comment, as you say, it does happen.
Still; I don't see it as an argument against in-game voice comms, because it's not an argument against voice comms in said other games. It's a PROBLEM, sure. But it's not such a massive problem that it should invalidate the fact that voice comms are, literally, the massive buff SWFs have.
Basically; it still works in basically every other team-based game, and this one issue does not invalidate that fact. WHy should everyone else have an unbalanced game just because a few will have voice comms troubles?
If that was the case; voice comms would not be in every game that has voice comms.
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So it exists. That's it. The comment was about how that problem doesn't exist for other games that have voice comms, and I'm saying that it does.
Draw from that whatever you want, it just felt relevant.
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Well, think about it this way: Doesn't that mean just putting voice comms into the game wouldn't fix the problem for a pretty huge portion of the player base?
Sure, you technically have the same ability to communicate as a SWF, but if you're in a lobby as an English-speaking player and the other players are two guys who speak German and one who speaks Russian, that communication is going to be a little bit hampered, wouldn't you agree?
Compare that to the status icon change that the devs proposed. You don't need to share a language to have the game communicate what you're doing to your fellow teammates, who can then use that information to make more informed decisions, thus bridging the gap far more effectively.
I'm pretty sure the devs have said they don't want voice comms for tonal reasons, but that isn't the only reason to oppose them as the solution to this problem- they just wouldn't fix it, at least not on their own.
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People complaining about this are just reaching.
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its elitism, plain and simple
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Good sentiment but explain how it would work without making swfs more of an issue then they are now?
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Hardly. But I guess having to actually think as a Survivor is a foreign concept to the average survivor. How can I listen to music while playing Survivor otherwise?
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Reaching... For that hand to hold?
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Something I don't understand with this argument is how a HUD saying what survivors are doing affects map awareness. As SoloQ myself, I am not aware of what my team is doing unless I actually see it. If I cannot see what my team is doing, that's not bad map awareness. It's just how it is. A SoloQ player will not know what is happening around the map all the time with fellow survivors.
It doesn't stop me from being observant to what I can see, spotting which directions a survivor is running to, etc., so honestly for me this won't have any effect in terms of map awareness. It's just knowing they aren't hiding in a locker.
I'd also consider that, if survivors have that HUD, then could a killer share a similar thing? Not to say where they are, but to say what is happening, at least in terms of who is doing generators. It will create a new type of approach towards the game. Could make it fresh.
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Bro, coming from Overwatch, you hear the craziest stuff about how people perceive what happened. And that is when everyone is grouped and they are often dead able to watch from your perspective. It is legit scary what is wrong with people's minds. Like, there is genuinely something "off" and lowkey it is more horrific than any of the movies we have licenses to in DBD. Lol.
I digress, yeah. No way you could tell what your team was doing unless there are a lot of context clues and/or aura reading.
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I see no problem in implementing mechanics that close the gap even a little between solo and SWF.
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I wouldn’t exactly call it handholding. The gap between solo queue and SWF is so extreme it’s like two different games sometimes, and the devs have a hard time balancing one game as it is. Buffing solo queue means they can buff weaker killers too. Of course there’s the risk that they’ll just buff solo queue and leave it at that which would suck.
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No offence but that sounds like a lot of straw clutching there.
Voice comms are a basic feature that come as standard in the majority of multiplayer games. If everyone else can manage it, I’m sure BHVR can too.
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Killers will never get major buffs. They just admitted that SWF's have a 15% higher chance of escaping (putting kill rates for killers vs swfs between 35% - 40% at most) and they're still nerfing killers. They still nerf them regardless of that fact as well as their intention to give massive buffs to solo q in the near future.
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Except we can't really trust the devs to make reasonable changes to the killerside as to not be left behind.
Many people, me included, are all for changes like this to get the survivor side on one level and then balance killer in accordance.
But the last 2 years don't give much hope for the devs to stick the landing on this large scale balancing act,in a timely fashion for both sides equally.
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The idea isn't necessarily to make survivor easier, it's to simulate something of the coordination of a 4man SWF to close the gap between SWF and solo, and then to buff killers accordingly.
Whether the final part ever happens is going to be the interesting part, but we'll see.
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I'd like to see it to bring a balance between SWF and SoloQ - and it sure might give a lot of information of what someone's doing - but still.. where are they doing it on the map? I don't think the symbols will be able to tell you that..
And I'd like to know how the game will realize IF someone's going for a hook rescue..
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Do you honestly think they'll buff killers across the board to match this? Not a hope in hell.
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Call me mad, but I actually still have hope they will, though I also believe it'll come after an obnoxious several month interim period where killers struggle and they take control-set data despite everyone telling them "this is bad" by the end of the first week.
Luckily, it's not going to make the game worse at the high end, because that's almost pure SWF anyway. Solos will have lower MMR simply by dint of random teammate selection. I think you'll see the most difference at medium MMR.
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How is this handholding? You cant tell if your teammate is being camped without going there yourself unless you run kindred, that's not gamesense, that's you being forced to use a perk due to a lack in gamedesign.
Just because you can guess where your teammate is, doesnt mean you can guess where your teammate is going. Let alone that the killer has access to seeing scratchmarks in the distance, and any crow that flies in the distance is guaranteed to be a survivor. As a survivor, the crow could be the killer, and you dont see scratchmarks. Killers have gamesense of survivors because they constantly survey the map. Killers dont have to spend 80 seconds on a single location.
So you're completely wrong here. Survivors arent being handheld, all they are given, is an indication of what their teammates are doing. You have to figure out where they are yourself.
Seriously, what kind of gamesense gives you the information that a teammate is going for an unhook? What kind of gamesense gives you the difference in both you and your teammate knowing that you are not going for the unhook? You could be on a gen across the map, being further away from the hook than I am, but me already being quite far away from the hook too. Who would go for the hook in this case? I could already be on my way, wasting your time if you also go, especially if Ruin is up, OR we both could stick on the gen, letting the teammate go to second stage for no reason.
What kind of "gamesense" tells you the difference? What type of gamesense, other than seeing someone getting injured, tells you that a teammate is in chase(obsession being the exception, is the obsession mark wiggling also handholding too much?)?
None, there is none, it was hypothetical.
This isnt handholding, this is just confirming to everyone that you both are currently working on a gen. Calling this handholding, is like giving killers Bloodlust handholding. It's like adding a gen counter being handholding. It's like adding injured states to the HUD handholding. You can figure out if someone is downed if they scream, right? So why even have those icons?
The changes arent meant to give you super specific information. The list they have given was an example of what could be, but by no means would they include that entire list. Its too much work to learn, its probably gonna have things like "being on a gen" "being camped" "being in chase" "being healed/healing someone"(aka, being able to tell if someone is being healed or healing themselves) and probably "working on a totem". Essentially everything thats actually important to progressing the game. That's not handholding. It's just filling the gaps that gamesense cannot fill.
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I'm not sure I would call it handholding per say. Most people I talk to would agree that the gap between Solo Q and SWF is a real issue, in that the overall experience shifts dramatically depending on which group you are a part of. The thing that people have issue with, particularly killers, is that Behavior has a track record of making poor balance decisions then leaving said decisions for months on end. Think back on old OOO, a perk that people rightly called unbalanced and unhealthy since day one due to its applications with a group. In many ways it was comparable to the effect COH has today. Behavior flat out refused to acknowledge it was a problem until a year ago and nerfed it to the state it is today. This is what people are afraid of if/when they buff Solo Q. Players do not trust Behavior to make the right decisions balance-wise and they do not trust them to correct any imbalances in a timely manner.
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I get the idea of this information is to close the gap between solos and teams one must always remember this information is power. By giving survivors more information they are basically giving them the power role rather than the killer. This will eventually remove the fight for survival that dbd has right now and killers will not have their power role
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That's not a game design flaw. That's you have terrible game and map sense. God forbid you actually have to think of what's happening around you? You're not supposed to know what everyone is currently doing EVERY MOMENT OF THE GAME which most Solo queue players seem to think they deserve that amount of information 24/7 because discord exist and woe is me for I am suffering with random inexperienced players please bottle feed me I want a smooth match experience!. Me saying you should equip a perk is me saying you have awful game sense not that the game designed is flawed. Game design is flawed but for a different reason and that's balancing territory and a different discussion altogether.
Again it's fine as it is. You can reliable tell what people are doing. You are given a third perspective camera throughout the game take advantage of it. If Killers with a god awful first person camera and bad fov can predict what players are doing without any information perk at all then you can do it to a certain extent. Both killer and survivor are similar like this but survivor is especially forgiving in this aspect. Hook states a WHOLE MINUTE only move when you have to and you can win games and put trust in your teammates. Judge how long your travel time is to the hook in correlation to the hook timer and only move when you really have to at the very last second that you could afford or you judged that everyone in injured and you should drop whatever you're doing and go for the unhook to play it safe.
Again anymore than this is already handholding the players. You don't deserve every information handed to you in a silver platter throughout the game. Work with what you got.
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Where are you getting the '35-40% at most' from?
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Solo doesn't need to bridge the gap since a group of random actually experienced players can play at the level of 4 man SWF. Might not be as efficient as the very top 4 man SWF team but it is enough. Killers can't realistically chase 4 survivor across the map. Just follow the golden rules of. Last one minute in a chase then drag the killer away from the generator getting worked on and don't give unnecessary free hits because that's pressure for the killer then just do generators. That's it you win most of your games. You literally don't need to be on discord to do this.
You also have three chances to do this and never mind the fact that second chance perks exists or medkits. Imagine if survivor actually know how to buy time for everyone? That's it. You don't need information 24/7
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Killers have an average of 50% - 55% kill rate between all MMR levels. The devs just said that SWF at high MMR have a 15% higher escape. If the average of 50% - 55% kill rate carries to the top MMR, which is unlikely, then vs SWF teams the killer's average would drop from 50% - 55% down to 35% - 40%.
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I feel like part of what's going on here is that you don't really understand the goal of these changes. It's not JUST that SoloQ players lack information in general, though that's certainly a part of it- it's that some players have a ton of information and some don't, which makes balancing very very difficult.
The chasm that exists between the effectiveness of soloQ players and SWF players means that changing anything about survivor becomes at least twice as hard as it needs to be, because you have to consider how it would affect a solo player AND how it would affect a team on comms- this also applies to killer balance changes, AND new killer designs.
It's not about whether it's reasonable to expect solo players to overcome the lack of information they have, that isn't the goal. The goal is to make survivor more of a cohesive whole so the entire game can be balanced better, rather than right now, where they're two distinct groups that would be affected differently by any given balance change.
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The feature will certainly reduce the gap between solo and swf, but at the same time, is useless. Not because of the lack information (solo) survivor have, but because of survivor. I always run Kindred for the incredible amount of information it gives me in every situation, and to my teammate when i'm hooked. And i can't count the times the survivor let me go on second stage when the killer didn't camp, hide in proximity of the hook when the killer camp (for at least 1 hook stage), or just everyone run at me to farm the bp. This is not about solo that don't have information, it's about people that don't know how to play optimally.
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The 50-55% kill rate is with swiffers included. It's not a 15% deduction from the overall average kill rate. For example: If solo results in a 60% kill rate and swiffer in a 40% kill rate, and both are played equally, the total average kill rate would be 50%, while putting swiffers at a 20% lower kill rate than solo.
It depends on the solo/swiffer divide, but it's likely swiffer kill rates are higher than 40%. It's also quite likely that solo kill rates are higher than 55%.
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That's not what the stats say.
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Yes because Solos are stupid and that's not a reason to willingly hand buffs to. You should want them to be better players not because they're so dumb that you hand them buffs? And I'm saying at the very top of Survivor play where four random actually good survivor can contest just fine with most 4 man swf.
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Also if you want to use stats so much when it's convenient for you then game would go horribly wrong? Lots of weak killers would get nerfed
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Deathslinger and Nemesis come to mind...
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I don't like Cenobite's kill rate it's almost 60% therefore we should nerf him again and Freddy too. I don't like how his add ons is already worthless but just let's make his power worthless as well to balance it out.
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The data you just posted is considered "bad" data. It's completely archaic in it's findings and doesn't take into account massive variables IE: hooks vs kills. Even during the Q&A the devs said Nurse wasn't the worse killer, but that contradicts what the stats show.
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No way. I have lots of hours in the game, and while i like kindred and bound, i dont run them, because a lot of times i just want to kill myself on the hook if i do, and see what my teammates are doing all the time. In solo queue, there are just a lot of people not doing anything worthwhile. I had 2 games yesterday, one in which all others were dead within minutes, because the just tried to flashlight save one another the whole time (and failing to do so), another one where one guy was afk the whole time, but the 3 remaining players were good enough to all escape anyway. So much depends on your teammates in this game.
While i dont like the change (i like the lack of information and the tention and decisions that come with it), i think it is nessecary, because killer need help vs swf, and that cannot happen as long as the gap between swf and solo is that big.
While i would prefer they just seperate solo and swf (and balance them differently; if killer had a higher powerlevel in swf, there would be no need to dodge them), they will never do it, because whenever a balance change for swf comes, swf-players cry how they are punished for just playing with their friends. So buffing solo is the way to do, and information is the thing where you can buff solos without buffing swf, because swf has this information anyway.
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I don't mind the change, but I don't like how precise the fan concept they featured was.
Like it shouldn't say "cleansing dull," "cleansing hex," "blessing dull," "blessing hex." At most it should just say "totem."
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There is a 15% gap between escape rate for solos and escape rate for SWF.
Now sure, some of that you could attribute to different players (more serious players will tend to look for any advantages, ie. SWF) - but there is a reason for that.
If more serious players go for SWF, that is another indication (besides...simple common sense) that SWF confers some serious advantages. Otherwise they wouldn't bother.
The simple fact that you can share information and coordinate perk selection is massive.
Asia too.
Which is why, I suspect, they are attempting to do it in a more universal manner - with icons.
Or lots of weak killers would get buffed.
I'm saying that there is a significant difference in escape rate between solo and SWF, which means that a system to bring solos up closer to SWF level is a good idea.
Just as I want to see underperforming killers buffed.
Post edited by StarLost on1 -
Perk coordination doesn't really help again all you need to do well in this game is learn how to buy time for your teammates and drag the killer away from important objectives. Ergo Hook and Gen getting worked on. Maybe players need to actually git gud? Give that a thought.
As someone who played with Random teammates and SWF you can do pretty much all of this with Solos again just equip Kindred if you have zero game and map sense. The game is inherently broken by itself. It completely has nothing to do with SWF being the way it is but they do show the game's fault's in its entirety. I played with a Ton of SWF out of curiosity and the team can be entirely dog crap with a one or two guys being somewhat decent loopers but because they know when to hold m1 they can get out alive because again the killers can't realistically chase four survivors. You can do this with Solo again equip Kindred.
Dead by daylight isn't an intricate competitive game that everyone has to be on Comms to win matches, You need to hold M1 and be decent loopers that's it.
Your 'underperforming' killers are balanced according to kill rates so I don't know what you're on about and some known joke of a killers Freddy and Cenobite are arguably overpowered so they deserve to nerf. Again statistics are bonkers.
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Since SWF is pretty much unpreventable cheating, I think this is the only way.
Without buffing solo survivors before buffing killers, they gonna lose like half the playerbase.
And I don't think killers gonna hurt much as they are dealing with all those legitimate cheaters anyway.
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Definitely, game is balanced around soloq but SWFs are ruining it, and then BHVR has no way or bravery to remove it.
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