Why Do Many People Think Killers Are Weak?
I mostly use dbd's steam forum and most people there think the game is survivor sided. Looks like this forum isnt so different than steam forum because i have seen many people here who think dbd is survivor sided as well. I just want to know why so many people here think killers are weak. Because i think its literally the best time to play killer. Killers have way stronger things than survivors do. I think the only good thing thats left for survivors is SWF. Killer Meta (especially DMS + Pain Resonance) is stronger, maps are weak for survivors , hex totems are stronger than boon totems (I know boon totems can be reblessed but killers can destroy it instantly so reblessing is just a waste of time).. I looked at kill rate stats and its above average, so it proves that killers are stronger than survivors. I think those who think survivors are stronger clearly havent played survivor enough. Soloq is a mess, its a horrible experience.. my mmr goes down because of my teammates mistakes and its not fair. Looping the killer nowadays is too hard as well due to the anti loop killers they have recently released. So, what makes you think DbD is survivor sided?
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It's not survivor-sided or killer-sided.
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Because there are two VERY different games in this game
If you are low level/low MMR, survivors almost always have the short end of the stick. New survivors who don't know the tricks that experienced survivors know are usually getting absolutely curb stomped because they don't know how to optimize what they're doing all game. They don't know how to deal with killer powers. They don't know how to hide effectively. They don't know how to loop effectively. They don't know how to maximize their perks effectively (go into any Dead Hard thread and you can see the noob survivors versus the experienced ones as the noob survivors are the ones who will complain that DH isn't that good because they dodge one killer swing and then go down two seconds later because they have no idea how to actually use DH).
If you are high level MMR, it flips around. The survivors all know the little tricks and strategies to run the killer around like a Scooby Doo villain. When they're not in a chase, they know what generators to do and the best way to get them done as fast as possible with minimal risk to themselves. Anecdotal of course but higher MMR is also where most Bully SWF Squads are going to be so not only will games at high MMR be a curb stomping, the Bully Squad makes sure that curb stomping is as MISERABLE as humanly possible for the killer.
That's why you get such extremely different opinions on which side is stupidly overpowered
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In my experience hex totems almost never last longer than a minute. So I stopped using them. Time after time they get destroyed early game and I got fed up of having 1 less perk slot every match.
Killer is most certainly the weaker role against decent players. 4 perks against 16, 4 players against 1.
Killer is strong until a certain point and it shifts. Drastically shifts. Maps allow players to safely loop killers long enough for gens to get done.
So map design + 16 perks + 4 against 1
Yeah the killer has terrible odds here against decent players that don't make to many mistakes.
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Because some of their influencers (aka killer main streamers) think that killer is "not the power role" for some reason and complain until the stream is over.
Whatever the streamer says guys.
That's why we see everyday threads like:
This streamer said that.
This streamer discovered the best build.
This streamer says swf is busted.
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DbD is 2 different games.
At low/average MMR (presumably your level based on your gameplay), the game is Killer sided due to the fact that Survivors at that level of play aren't good. They don't know how to loop properly, they don't know how to use ShiftW properly, they don't know how to counter tunneling/camping etc.
At high MMR, it's the clear opposite. Survivors hold almost all the power and the Killer is on a timer. Survivors know how to loop/ShiftW, how to cooperate and save/take hits, know how to use CoH/DH to its fullest, uncounterable potential, they're going to know how to abuse each Killer's weakness, use their time as efficiently as possible etc. At this level, every Killer but A tier ones and higher don't generally have a chance, and the ones that do have to tunnel and camp to do so
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Most killers have literally nothing they can do against safe palette/god windows/shift+w, only entity blocking and breaking palette.
Basically, survivors can utilize their own knowledge to make chase longer no matter what, there is no counter for it unless killers can do some kind of anti-loop or extreme mobility.
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Well that's why I never take off bamboozle on my M1 killers. Too many busted windows for that. They removed a few of the legit god windows a while ago but have gone and added a bunch back in recently.
Coup de grace is actually a super nice perk now. A practically guaranteed down on demand is pretty nice, even if you only get a few.
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Not to mention infinity loops have made thier way back into maps...... Midwich has a few that can spawn on the 2nd floor....combine that with all the vaults to the 1st floor chases can be a challenge....but I found out something on Coldwind map....do you know you can see survivors shadows if they are messing around the drop hole....found that out last night when I was heading into the house and saw the light shining on the ground and saw a Claudette shadow....
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Where do we see that? I make my decisions based on what I see from my games. Not streamers.
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My take is that DBD is actually pretty balanced, if both sides are bringing their strongest stuff.
...The snag in that is that the Killer bringing their strongest stuff locks you into one of like, four killers, on top of the strongest perks. Survivors get to bring at least some of their strongest stuff all the time, and while that's a pretty decent (if flawed for non-strength reasons) matchup for, say, a Nurse playing well or a Blight with an adequate build, it's massive overkill for a Clown running average perks.
Since there's a lot of reasons to want to play different killers it leads people to saying that DBD is "survivor sided", when the real issue is that there's not enough consistent power throughout the killer roster. After all, the difference between Clown and Nurse is immense.
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When you said "Hex totems are stronger than Boon totems" and "Maps are weak for survivors", your credibility -- if you had any -- went completely out the window, to be honest. Anyone who's not reaching from a biased standpoint to begin with and who's played the game on BOTH sides for a significant amount of time, recognizes both of those statements to be frankly erroneous, bordering on ridiculous.
Using kill rates isn't an argument either, as those stats aren't given with context. For example, the new player experience at survivor tilts heavily towards the killer, where as when players get more experience, that balance starts to shift.
I get to experience both sides of the game regularly. My escape rate -- and I'm not particularly good at important parts of the survivor experience -- is hovering right around a 60% rate, even as a solo. I don't keep meticulous stats as killer the way I do as survivor, but I get far more good results than bad when playing that role. That said, there are far more games that are essentially "unwinnable" from the killer side than there are when I play survivor (for the record, I almost never play Nurse, Blight, or Spirit, for various reasons, which if I did, might skew that perception).
The people on the forum who claim that the game is completely "unfair" when playing either survivor OR killer are usually exaggerating, or are victims to improperly working SBMM more than anything. Again, there are plenty of things that should be done to help the experience of the killer role -- there's a reason why survivor queues during prime time are lengthy and killer queues are instant -- and there are also things that could be done to improve the solo experience (some of which have been already discussed, like the HUD changes).
This game DOES favor the survivor role, however, the more hours people put into that role, and especially if we're talking about SWF. It's not as one-sided as some want to make it out to be, but it's definitely the less-stressful, often-more-fun, and arguably easier role to play in this game.
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It all depends on from where you watch it.
If you are lower MMR than the game is definitely killer sided because you are still learning, which is why you see many facecamping bubba's.
If you're higher MMR than the game is definitely survivor sided.
There the survivors know the weaknesses of the killers and will take advantage of that, plus they are very optimal on gens.
The problem with BHVR is that they are trying to balance around low MMR, no other developer does this as they all balance around high MMR.
That's because once the people at the lower MMR starts to get the hang of the game there starts to be a balance shift, which happens very noticeable in DBD.
I can understand that it might be difficult when you just start playing, but the way they are trying to balance it now is doing it backwards.
Also i have to disagree that solo is a nightmare as i only played solo and had no problem escaping most of the time.
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I have not seen any on Midwich, and that's my favorite map beyond RPD so I am playing there all the time. Always vault the window after the survivor at the staircases, don't walk down them. It's almost always faster to just vault after them from the 2nd floor. Always kick the doors next to the windows as you are walking around the map.
If you see a survivor way down at the end of the hallway, don't even bother chasing it. Go through the middle and try to cut them off. There's alot of pretty big brain plays you can do on that map, and there's no stupidly strong loops. That's why I send myself there alot as killer.
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So the game is now killer sided due to 4 OP Killers
Who were they again.... Artist, Nurse, Blight and Huntress
The strongest Combo.... PR and DMS
The best Anti loop Perks: Bamboozle and Brutal Strength
And you're saying that you think that others think that the game is Killer sided?
Am I wrong?
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Killers would be stronger if they had as much variation in their style as survivors do. The thing is once you somewhat learn how to play against a killer that strategy seldom needs a revamp. Some killers do have iri addons that do change up their play style but it often is as much of a change as one would hope.
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I can say from my experience that the inability to stop a loop, makes the killer very weak. My games ended even before they started just because of one perk as you know "DH".
The games are quite miserable on certain maps and if the survivors have perks that give them an advantage over it, the game is very difficult.
But the game is not survivor-sided if we speak about solos and not Killer-sided.
Right now we are just dealing with annoying perks that mislead what the problem really is. ׂ(Matchmaking, Maps...)
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Or people can have their own opinions and just because theirs is different doesn't mean that they are sheep that instantly believe everything a streamer says?
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I don't think the game is really sided toward one side or another, but I do know that the game is sided against anyone who plays solo queue.
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Yeah good point, streamers really effect what people think. Many people think DbD is survivors sided because of killer main streamers. I think they should play survivor instead of relying on streamers' opinions.
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The forums tends to have more vocal killer players, and they're also probably alone. Not to say they are friendless or whatever, but most survivors are probably playing with at least another friend.
So if you lose a game and you're chatting with a buddy you're less likely to come to the forums to vent about the loss because you're already distracted with whatever you're talking about.
If you're playing alone and you lose, especially if the loss feels like something you really couldn't have played out any differently, you get to stew in it for a minute and maybe come and get it off your chest. The fact that survivor play tends to draw in multiple people means they're less likely to have to stew in defeat.
You can see oftentime some survivors that come and complain, and if you notice more often than not they are either talking about their experience playing alone, or are new players in general.
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it's entity sided, obviously.
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Oh man you came over here now bruh... Greeting, but are you really the real Borisky? But I do believe it's survivor sided. But not because of what people may think. The reason I believe it's survivor sided is because it's a 1v4, it's only logical for me. It's the numbers game, in video games the team with more players always has an advantage. It's just logical that killers will have a harder time, just because they got to deal with 3 more brains. Now sure different killers will be able to handle it better, but even so the numbers will always be on the survivors side.
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I think it's a complicated answer. Power difference between solo and SWF, matchmaking, the grind/progression system, and the meta for each side all play into it.
I think the first thing that trips killer players up is the power difference between solo and SWF. I'm not arguing that SWF is a problem or that it's OP. I think SWF is fine and if you're a good killer player, you'll do fine if matchmaking did its job correctly. But solo queue is in desperate need of attention and it's ridiculously easy to 4k a solo squad most of the time. When killers run into a remotely intelligent SWF, they think survivors must be OP, when in reality killers just aren't used to having to play well to win early on in their career.
The second point kind of ties into the first one. Matchmaking is often completely out of its mind during peak hours. I've SWF'd with a combined 8k hours and we've been matched with 200 hr killers who didn't hook anyone. That killer player isn't going to draw any other conclusion. This is where I think showing MMR would be useful, if only to lessen the sting of the often lopsided games that SBMM gives when it completely ignores the skill-based portion of matchmaking (which is for whatever reason really often).
The grind/progression system is a big one. Most of the time that killers get completely waxed, I look at their build and see tier 2 perks, random perks like Bloodhound/Unrelenting/Coulrophobia, or off-meta stuff in general. In my experience, it is much more difficult for a killer to win without meta perks than it is for a survivor to escape without meta perks. You're on an island by yourself as a killer. You can't run random stuff and have a teammate save the day with Deliverance/DS and a BNP toolbox. A lot of players won't even have every good perk for their killer unlocked by the 500 hour mark, assuming they spent all the money on the DLC. The grind is obscene. Most players would think they have an informed opinion by that level of experience (and I'd agree that they should), but the reality is that you can't tell where each side stands until you're running meta vs meta.
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Oh dear oh dear
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Dead hard, decisive strike, borrowed time, iron will I bet you can't go 3 straight games without seeing these perks ever. Going ONE game without them would be impressive.
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I'm pretty sure most SWFs or good survivors don't whine in forums because they do ######### wins, and probably because game is actually broken when they come into play.
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I watch most of the really big DBD killer main streamers, and most of them seem to maintain a view that the game is relatively balanced, so I am not sure I agree with the notion that streamers are driving the "the game is soooo survivor sided" narrative.
Maybe some smaller ones, but I'm not seeing it.
On aggregate the game favors survivors (IMO), but it's nuanced. And the survivor role is undeniably less stressful. That said, the "OMG playing killer is so miserable, it's unplayable" meta is definitely overblown. I play killer the way I like to, and I have fun most of the time (though less than I used to, and until string together a few 4Ks and end up in a bad neighborhood).
But as you rise in MMR, the killer game definitely gets way less fun. I could/can still win consistently, but I have to play in such a way that it just saps all the fun out of it. And my win condition isn't strict; if I get 3+ kills or even just 8-10 hooks, I feel like got what I wanted out of a match) The "strength" of the killers isn't the large issue (though like 20 of the killers lose their viability at high MMR), it's that it's becoming less fun due to enhancements to the survivor side.
Like I can still win against a boon healing squad, but I have to abandon any sort of a "hit and run" playstyle, otherwise I risk full reset. There are lots of examples like that which push many killers toward unpopular playstyles, and then surv mains cry when the formula isn't followed, or DC and waste everyone's time. And the relatively binary MMR has exacerbated all of that, with people chasing that invisible ranking.
High MMR play sucks out loud, especially for killers (which is why I drop back down when I get into sweatlord territory).
Outside of the design issues, the biggest problem is that we have a mix of people who just and to have fun, and people to mistakenly think the game can be some sort of skill based competition, and that can make for a really uneven experience.
But at the end of the day, fewer and fewer people are playing killer, and there has to be a reason for it. People who love playing killer don't just quit/switch because the meta told them to.
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Because in order to face the top tier survivors at the tippy top of skill you have to match them EXACTLY for meta scumminess, or you will lose. Period. There is no ifs ands or buts. Anything less and you will lose. If you don't play a killer with strong addons and strong perks you will lose. And badly.
I played trapper last night just trying to do my daily and I had corrupt intervention + dead lock. Survivors STILL blasted through 3 gens before I could even finish setting up. The only reason I got it is because I eventually just quit and stood by the door waiting for the survivors to finish and the survivors TOOK PITY on me and stood in my traps.
Even when you aren't high MMR you find good survivors. Literally the only way to have an 'easy' game as a killer is to try and maintain an MMR of 1100~ so you are most likely to go against babies. Anything more or less than that and you will find good survivors. The only difference is how much they care about escaping, but they'll still happily smash gens and loop you for 1,000 years because of 900 second chance perks.
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But that doesnt mean they are strong. Survivors use them because they are necessary against camper & tunneler killers.
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because they themselves are weak
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I think this game is killer sided at High MMR as well. If you think survivors are good at looping at High MMR, get better atchasing survivors. If you think survivors finish gens too quickly, learn how to pressure gens. Everything has a counter. I think killers already have enough resources to counter everything survivors have.
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Or maybe it's also because the game is flat out forcing players to play a certain way and right now survivors have more pull thanks to the perks being way too forgiving at times
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If that's the case why the do killers have to tunnel and camp now?
If the game was as "balanced" as many defenders want to claim why would the killer need to do that in the first place?
And remember even high mmr players like otz said that they have to camp and tunnel at times.
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So it boils down to "killers don't have actual complaints because they don't have teammates?" Cause skimming through this is what i basically got.
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Then I guess streamers are why a good chunk of survivors are entitles trolling ######### then.
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The game design is blatantly survivor sided, that is really obvious if you do a bit of simple math. HOWEVER, survivors are so bad that I actually tend to agree that the game is, pragmatically, killer sided.
I believe that is why this debate exists even though both sides are 100% accurate. It depends on your perspective.
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