Survivors allow gen defence/info perks to be viable
Gen defence and info perks aren't really that good on their own. STBFL or NOED would be way better. Trust me. I play a lot of killer. But I still see those kinds of perks being played for some reason, and I think I've figured out why.
It's pretty simple. Suboptimal survivors. BBQ, Discordance, Pop, Pain Resonance. These perks do almost nothing for you if you're facing a comp team, or even a half-decent team who are quick on gens. The true meta was and still is things like Corrupt, Deadlock, Dead Man's Switch, No Way Out, NOED, because those perks actually guarantee some slowdown. By true meta, I mean the meta you see at the top of the top, not the fake info/gen defence meta which is still being propagated to this day. Let me remind you how useless these perks are in the worst case scenario matches, which is every match at top MMR:
BBQ: You see survivors across the map, but you can only go for one, and they'll hold forward anyway once you're near. Assuming a survivor is too near, you can't see them.
Discordance: You go to push 2 survivors off a gen, and in exchange, you have 1 survivor on a gen while one is getting chased. Kind of like you could be doing at any point. Assuming you push both off but chase a 3rd person, they either get back on the gen, or split onto other gens. All outcomes are just as bad.
Pop: You luckily are able to hook someone once, but the survivors can either finish the gen before you're able to Pop it, or they undo your Pop in 10-20 seconds. You have to constantly be hooking people to get this perk's value.
Pain Resonance: Assuming you actually make it to your scourge hook, you're only doing 15% on a gen, which the survivors can undo even quicker than Pop, and they can let off the gen at the last second so they don't scream. You have to constantly hook survivors to get this perk's value.
Ruin: You have to be constantly pushing survivors off gens to get this perk's value. Even if you're doing that, you're not spending time to commit to a down or hook, and when you commit to either of those, survivors can just sit on gens and finish them so you get no regression. It's also a hex, so they can break it.
Pentimento: You'll be lucky to get 1 stack of this perk at any 1 time. It's 30% slowdown on gens, but survivors can just break it, or boon over it so you can never relight it. Or they can push through the debuff. It literally might not be enough slowdown to warrant breaking it if the survivors coordinate that decision.
And yes, Corrupt and Dead Man's and all that are technically gen defence, but they're part of a subset of gen defence I call gen delay, because they don't actually regress the gens. And gen delay is very different from actually defending or regressing the gens, imo.
You may say I'm not at top MMR, and that's fine, because I'm probably not right now anyway. I'm not facing unbeatable teams every game, just some of them. But I have tasted a sample of what super efficient survivor teams are like enough times to where I know what I'm talking about.
So now not only can you tell roughly what MMR you're at by what killer it is (Myers: low MMR, Blight: high MMR), but also by their perks. If a killer has zero gen defence or delay, they're low MMR, and will be high MMR soon where they will assuredly get absolutely annihilated. If a killer has some or all of the perks I've suggested, they know what they're doing so watch out.
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I think the reason why you see BBQ and discordance as killer perks has to do with concept of a security blanket.
some players have very bad sense of direction when it comes to understanding the flow of a match. They're afraid of not having 100% chase-up time in a match as killer, so they run information perks as Insurgence towards finding survivors. They find possible loss of time looking for survivors a greater than reward of gaining more time on generators. I would say information perks are safety net perks.
Another possible reason for running information is to tunnel as killer. instead of explicitly tunneling off hook, its more indirect soft-tunnel by finding survivors that are on death hook towards middle stage of the game.
Pain Resonance is used to trigger DMS without the killer requiring to commit going to a generator. Knocking off 2 survivor for a full 12 second+45 seconds of DMS is increatible perk value. It is really interesting question whether deadlock or Pain Resonance is stronger.
I feel like No way out a bit overrated for a perk. I feel like true power of No way out really comes from NOED and nothing else. In matches that you have won, its fanatic win-more perk for alerting exit gates but I feel like the perk functionally is no better than running blood warden. At most, it gives 1 extra hook in late game. I would describe No way out as Haunted ground of hex builds. Its like Icing of cake. Haunted grounds can often snowball Hex:Ruin or Hex:Devour hope builds rapidly. No way out can escalate NOED.
I run stbfl a lot on vast majority of my killers and the reason why I run it is because my greatest fear as killer is bodyblocking & shift-W gameplay on m1 killers. My other fear is dropping safe pallets but there is no perk that is viable for punishing safe pallet drops. If only coup the grace cough cough was more useful cough cough(no token system please).
In the end, the best perk build is the one that works best for you and complements your strengths & weaknesses as a player.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
All you've told me is that "normal" strats don't work on comp players.
Thank goodness there's like 200 total competitive DBD players. You aren't getting that caliber of player every match. You'd be unlucky to get them once every 2 months. They are FEW and far between.
The game isn't unwinnable just because you play Killer. Even before I quit, I was still managing a Kill Rate near 90%. The issue is that it's not fun for the Survivors when you play like that and it's not particularly fun for the Killer either, it was far too stressful.
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This
Also Pain Resonance's value is that it explodes the gen with the highest progression (without kicking it either, that's why I assume it's weaker than pop) which more often than not will be around or more than 50% progress meaning that survivors will try to push it (regardless of whether they untap to avoid the scream)
What I'm saying is that it gives highly valuable information on what area to pressure next (or not pressure at all? Ex: the gen that explodes is house of pain basement one - for all i care they can take it)
So yeah, as you said these perks don't really work much on comp survivors. Luckily, they're like 12 on a 50k average playerbase, and mostly playing custom matches
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Comp as a measuring stick is problematic. Yeah, BBQ doesn't do much, but it also doesn't make sense in comp because comp survivors tend to do sensible things that are mostly predictable. BBQ is better in a public match because, while it may make zero sense for survivors to be in a particular spot, there's a good chance they're in that spot anyway.
Comp is kind of its own thing. And high MMR public matches aren't a direct 1:1 comparison because you're often playing against builds and power creep more than optimization/coordination. A good pub SWF still pales in comparison to a half decent comp team.
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If your kill rate was 90%, your survivors must have been half asleep or something.
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But you don't have to be a comp player to beat a really good killer. You just have to do gens fast.
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But you still lose to those less coordinated teams.
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Some of them, sure.
Not all of them. I had to sweat in 30% of my games, I think.
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No offense, but when I hear people aren't sweating that much when I'm almost always sweating, it leads me to believe that my survivors are better on average.
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Well it's a good thing nobody in the history of this game plays against the sweatiest of the sweaty survivors every single game. We need not worry too much.
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I put far far far too much time into Killer.
If I wasn't better than most Survivors I played, I'd be embarrassed.
Most Survivors are pretty bad and can be manipulated fairly easily. Plus, I never gave Hatch nor did I ignore an opportunity to tunnel or camp.
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The reason why you see BBQ is the extra points
, you over-optimizing psychopath!In all seriousness though, I'm pretty sure you nailed a lot of solid reasons that people run those perks!
... Wow, I almost called you a Handsome Devil as a joke and then I read your username. Eww, puns.
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But the fact that those teams exist is a problem. You can be doing well at high MMR, through your own skill, and then suddenly one of those teams, or a team who's just quick on gens, comes and gets a free win on you. Doesn't feel like you could do anything to change the outcome. That is what you will lose to at high MMR.
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Im used to use End game focus perks (Noed, BW, STBFL, Rancor, No way out). Im sure that 4 slow down stand superior than any build.
Longer the match, the less resource survivors have, and the game is slowly easier even if you're an M1 killer.
Using End game with no slow down, Gen done in less than 5min. Noed is useless when 15 pallets are still around because you were only able to make 2 chases. Survivors can recognize end game build and they would just simply left 1 and make 3 escape.
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Gen regression just needs to be relevant. More damage done from a kick, and survs need to spend longer time to stop the regression after a kick.
Might even help the current meta which is to tunnel like hell.
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- SBMM and/or MMR in its current form is unreliable at best (It feels like a sick joke tbh)
- BHVR could choose to remove group/team play at any time (I don't think the game would survive the aftermath of such a decision)
- Plenty of groups are just as inefficient as solo players
- The real problem is multifaceted, so the solution(s) will be just as complex
- You managed to capture a portion the overarching problem when you said, " ... and gets a free win on you. Doesn't feel like you could do anything to change the outcome."
- Certain maps, perks, etc. are so egregious that we aren't even remotely close to a balanced game. The disparity between certain maps and perks is so vast ... it's like they've managed to colonize another planet, and laugh at us from across the universe, while we toil away on Earth.
- At the end of the day, nobody wants to play an unwinnable game. Even under normal circumstances, there is a snowball effect that occurs during the match. There are just too many perks that serve to multiply that snowball effect. (You win harder/win more.) When you stand to snowball a victory from the single use of a perk, it can very quickly become an unwinnable game (for either side).
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And the devs have tried and failed to do this by introducing more gen defence perks. But the thing is it isn't working, despite survivors crying and saying "killer keeps getting more gen defence!" Wrong. Just because there are more options for gen defence doesn't mean they're all good to use. I don't think any of them are good enough to use, not against gen rushing teams. You simply won't get to use them.
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or theyre just good at the game lol
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Base Gen Regression needs to be increased
That's the whole point... We keeps getting perks when the answer is simple... change the base game
It isn't working cause Survivors are expecting it... Like Ruin "gen tap and see if you get cursed", Different colored sparks or the amount of sparks when a Gen is kicked that's Pop... so on and so forth
We would like to get more Regression other then using a perk
Plus good Survivors can chew through Gens due to the amount of Great skillchecks they can hit and be able to loop the Killer for however long
Take away perks... play a custom match with friends perkless and see what happens
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Or you're worse than average?
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No, you don't understand how DBD works. It's survivor-centric, in balance and in gameplay. If survivors don't play well and you slaughter them, you look like a god to inexperienced eyes. If they play well, you're losing that game, unless a miracle happens and they throw. The outcome of the game is based off of how well the survivors are playing, not the killer. The only exception to this rule is Nurse, and arguably Blight.
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The average doesn't know what perks or add-ons are good on the different killers, except if a content creator has told them which is the best. I come to my own conclusions.
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Source: trust me bro I've thought of my own builds therefore I'm a god
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Am I wrong, or is everything wrong?
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I think gen tapping just needs to be addressed, maybe when a survivor interacts with a gen it starts gaining progress after 2 seconds. That way they can't tap it mid chase.
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I can agree that whole thing needs to change but again increasing the Base Regression in the game can help to
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Not exactly.
The only thing you said on this entire post, is that those perks will not be as powerful as they usually are when Survivors play the game as effectively as possible.
The thing is, no one, NO ONE, gets trials like that every time. Unwinnable situations are extremely rare scenarios, and that "extremely" deserves a huge emphasis.
In conclusion, those perks will give you the effect you need on the absolute majority of your trials.
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I cant tell if this is an ironic response
but go off king
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Not what I said.
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Don't forget there is only 4 perk slots as well. Sure it's cool we got 25 different gen defence perks but you can only have 4 perks at a time plus they are balanced around the idea you can have multiple gen perks so it then makes it so you have to equip multiple gen perks for then to be effective.
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No, you will not get to use them a majority of the time. Survivors that are below top of the top also know how to finish gens in your face or destroy hexes. My complaint is that you don't have to be an unbeatable team to beat a really good killer. Just be quick on gens.
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Yes. Survivors make it sound like there's a new gen defence perk, so suddenly killers get a 5th slot. No, we have to swap out an old perk to use the new one.
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It's not a good design for a glaring flaw plus it makes the whole perk system flawed because now good perks are really just band-aid fix that are limited by only having 4 perk slots.
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Discordance: Once someone is dead, you know exactly where to put pressure. Hook a second survivor and you know just how fast the game is going and potentially where the other survivors are. This perk is much better than you give it credit for because you arent thinking of the proper ways to use it. Its equally about where survivors are as to where they aren't.
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So you think that once a survivor has been hooked twice, killers should never chase them again, ever? Are we allowed to chase them in other matches, or do they get to be untouchable forever? This is so ######### stupid, it's not our job to help survivors win. When is a survivor expected to go easy on me so I win?
Nobody uses BBQ for the info, we use it for the points. It's not a security blanket, it's a reason not to camp.
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How are you gonna capitalize on it though? You're acting like killing a survivor off early is a granted. When there's 4 survivors, or 3 even, what's it matter if you know where they are if the inevitable chase is gonna cost you the game anyway? You guys don't give survivors near enough credit.
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I do not think BBQ does anything to deincentize camping. I have seen killer camp using BBQ. when I say tunnel in this context, I am referring to tunnel-vision. picture this situation. if you have a survivor on deathhook and you have 1 hook state on two other separate survivors with 1 generator left, The killer wants to chase the survivor on death hook.
Survivors that are on death hook typically want to hide away from the killer so that the killer spreads hook states across entire team. Information perks help the killer focus hook states on a single survivor. I hope this clears up any confusion.
@Mat_Sella post explains discordance in broad detail. in short its pseudo game delay perk with tracking.
arguably speaking, Danielmaster87 point is that you do not need information perks as killer because good survivors are so efficient at objective that they serve no use and you can use your own skill to find survivors in general. This refers to @CryptFriend comment of BBQ being a BP boosting perk.
Pulsar has 90% kill-rate, you just need to get better. Nothing to do with survivor calibur. My experience is similar to yours. My theory is that some regions like Otz region are not very good at DBD while other regions are very competitive. Otz for example was doing 4k with every killer with no perks, no add-ons, 30 second afk.
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