Deranking discussion

@SenzuDuck said:
That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well...

Exactly like tunneling and camping are playstyles for Killers to help them getting their objective done.

While I surely agree that doing gens is the main objective for Survivors, I also understand that getting kills is the main objective for Killers. I've seen you complaining about campers and tunnelers during your streams, which is totally fine but is actually no different to Killers complaining about Gen Rush Squads. If you have the chance to dodge a facecamper (hi MLGA) you will dodge them because they are campers. If a Killer faces a gen rush squad, they'll dodge them aswell. It's an eye for an eye, both sides provide playstyles that suck to deal with for the other side and it's only logical that they try to avoid those.

The problem is that gen rush squads don't just repair gens at a ridiculous time-efficiency, they also use voice communication to "play optimally" in all other aspects. I can deal with gen rush because I can make up for that with map pressure but against 4 survivors that have constant, global map awareness it's hard to get map pressure, depending on the Killer.

@micsan said:

@Orion said:
I'm just gonna address this lie. NOED actually has a perfect counter called "breaking the totems". DS can only be mitigated, but it does not have a perfect counter.
There is absolutely nothing the Killer can do to prevent the activation of DS; it's all on the Survivor hitting a very easy skill check. On the other hand, the Survivors can break totems, which actually does prevent the activation of NOED.
So no, they don't both have "perfect counters". One of them has a perfect counter, the other has ways to mitigate - but never completely nullify - its effect.

I do not agree. Maybe we disagree on what perfect counter is, but we both agree that they are counters.

I still think it's comparable as a survivor has to spend 14x5 seconds to remove said totems. As in you need to spend time for the counter to work. I don't think it's that far off to compare it to DS.

NOED isn't as perfectly countered as you make it out to be.
it still takes 70 seconds to remove all totems, plus you have to look for them. Time split between all 4 I guess, 17.5 seconds on average per survivor to do this task.

But, putting on small game makes that task easy, aka a counter.

Same with DS.
Put on enduring and you still have to chase them again, but they won't get very far. I don't think you would spend as much time chasing a DS then you would do removing all 5 totems. If you play with this in mind and make sure to use that split second to move to a place where the survivor can't get into a good loop right away after the DS hits. Or, you could juggle or slug.

It's the fact that the people who keep complaining about these things and that they should be nerfed that bothers me. I do not believe they are OP, and I do not believe they should be removed from the game.

Perfect counter means "perfect counter". Means "complete prevention of negative effects", instead of "partial mitigation of negative effects".
It does not take 70 seconds to remove all totems. It can take up to 70 seconds (14x5) to remove all totems, if a single Survivor is working on totems, but it can also take just 28 seconds to do it if they all work on totems. Just like it can take up to 400 seconds to repair generators (5x80) if a single Survivor is repairing them, but it can also take just 160 seconds to repair them if they all work on generators - and that's not including progression bonuses from skill checks, perks, and toolboxes.

Juggling only works if there's a hook nearby, and even then it's still not a perfect counter - body blocking will screw you over.

Slugging only works if you slug all of them. It takes very little time to pick up a dying Survivor. There's also no pressure on the Survivors to go do it ASAP, since they take a long time to bleed out and can recover by themselves.

@micsan said:

You are missing the point here...For you it's totally unacceptable to play against a toxic SWF, and that's the problem. A Toxic SWF is in fact nothing other then a group of survivors who communicate and are in fact, GOOD AT THE [BAD WORD] GAME......

Finally, something we actually agree with!

I might be a little harsher by setting it to 5 min, 15 min etc. I never dodge, If I get into a swf game where everyone has flashlights\medkits\toolboxes etc. I will make it a challenge to actually beat this completely out of my odds game. I also often use these stacked games to do Daily rituals on killers I don't like.

I didnt want to quote your whole thing because you are either reading my statements wrong or putting words in my mouth which i wont even bother to comment on. I said these things and ill state it again for a third time.

1) That saying "Why should i be punished for playing with my friends". It is unfun for you to wait for a excessive amount of time and i am sure it is unfun to wait 15-45 minutes. But from the killers standpoint why should they sacrifice their fun for you to have your fun. You said again you get dodged 70% of the time. That means again 70% of killers arent having fun playing against SWF because of the dice roll of either having a fun game or a game that feels like a waste of their time. THE POINT AGAIN is both sides feel like they are wasting their time and one side shouldnt have to sacrifice their fun for the other side.

Saying "Then 70% of the killers should learn how to have fun against SWF."....."If you don't have fun against 70% of your games, why are you even playing this game?"

This is again another silly thing to say and i dont see why you cant see that. Saying the majority
of the player base are having a terrible time with a certain aspect of the game and should just suck it up and learn to have fun or quit is silly. We should be striving to balance this, because doing nothing wont help your queue times and having 70% of players quit isnt going to help your queue times either.

THE POINT AGAIN is both sides feel like they are wasting their time and one side shouldnt have to sacrifice their fun for the other side.

2) It doesnt matter if it only happens in 10-15-20% of SWF games. Because those games are unfun enough for killers to lobby dodge most SWF games. There is a problem here and just punishing lobby dodgers isnt going to help.

You have to get it out of your head that this is a oh i should be playing better or oh i hate 3-4 man SWF teams. That is totally wrong. I even said in my last statement that they should balance showing SWF teams with longer lobby dodging queues. I never said take away SWF in any of the statements.

4) The most important point which for some reason you dont understand. "We communicate, we tell each other where we are and where to go and what killer it is, all that jazz". There is NO REASON the killer shouldn't know they are going up against this before hand.

Just because other games are balanced towards voice communication and killers should suck it up is another silly thing to say and not even close to the point either. I am not saying remove SWF or remove voice communication i am saying.....

THE POINT IS voice communication can provide an advantage and that the killer should know they are going up against that before hand

You have to stop accusing people of being salty or bad or mad about losing or playing better opponents and you have to stop putting words in my mouth or making assumptions.

And its fantastic you agree with having SWF marked with lobby quitting being punished more harshly. But please stop saying the majority of killers (70% like you said) should sacrifice their fun for you or just get better or quit the game. You should be striving for balance between both sides not making excuses why they should punish one side so you can continue to have your fun.

My stance will always be sure punish lobby dodgers but show survivors who are in a SWF group. Dont punish one side for the sake of the other.

PiiFree said:

@SenzuDuck said:
That's not an excuse, it's LITERALLY, without a doubt ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FACT that GENERATORS are a survivors objective, and a killer that is playing well can STOP THEM.

and I didn't mention pressure at all, I mentioned playing well...

Exactly like tunneling and camping are playstyles for Killers to help them getting their objective done.

While I surely agree that doing gens is the main objective for Survivors, I also understand that getting kills is the main objective for Killers. I've seen you complaining about campers and tunnelers during your streams, which is totally fine but is actually no different to Killers complaining about Gen Rush Squads. If you have the chance to dodge a facecamper (hi MLGA) you will dodge them because they are campers. If a Killer faces a gen rush squad, they'll dodge them aswell. It's an eye for an eye, both sides provide playstyles that suck to deal with for the other side and it's only logical that they try to avoid those.

The problem is that gen rush squads don't just repair gens at a ridiculous time-efficiency, they also use voice communication to "play optimally" in all other aspects. I can deal with gen rush because I can make up for that with map pressure but against 4 survivors that have constant, global map awareness it's hard to get map pressure, depending on the Killer.

I don’t get your point, who cares if I complain about Camping & tunnelling? I’ve always said on the forums it’s something I don’t have an issue with but im not going to pretend on stream it’s gameplay that I enjoy? 

Thr huge difference though between camping and “gen rushing” is that camping never really makes sense until end game, you’ll always get less points if you sit at the hook and do nothing, survivors HAVE to do tend to progress, killers don’t HAVE to camp to progress, it infact halts their progression.

I also don’t use MLGA and don’t dodge anyone as killer, I also don’t come on the forums and cry about the speed of a match, I move on and focus on what I did incorrectly.

@PandaChris said:

A whole bunch of stuff

I agree that quoting becomes ridiculous after a while...anyways!

As someone who's both rank 1 survivor and rank 1 killer, have been ever since I started the game. First three weeks of playing the game as survivor only I managed to get to rank 1 survivor. Next reset I started playing killer as well and hit rank 1 on both for the first time, my second season of being introduced to this game. Once you know the meta, it's not that hard. Once you know how to catch every survivor within 2 minutes maximum, it's really not as hard as many killers should make it seem.

To get into a toxic swf game, that doesn't happen often enough to warrant getting SO fussed up about it. It can not be compared to the 45 minute wait time, the odd time you get into a game vs toxic survivors.

That is my point. If you think that getting into swf groups.... OK, let's be real. It's not just SWF groups that you are having trouble against, it's good survivors that play as a group. You do not need voice comms for this. Some survivors just know certain things. For instance, If I'm across the map sitting on a gen, and you get hooked...I'm going to leave you hanging, even if I don't know where any of the other survivors are. Sure, there is a slight chance that you will either go to second phase or even die, but chances are way higher that there is at least one other survivor closer then I. Having voice comms doesn't make or break the game, like many would make it seem. You don't need to be in swf to make the killers day a living hell. The odd game you can get 4 rando survivors that will gen rush as hard as if they where swf, maybe even harder then most SWFs because most SWFs suck. If you still think that most SWFs are toxic genrushing machines, you are dead wrong. You are letting those few games dictate your entire experience with DbD.

If you think it's comparable to be in even 45 minutes of PURE toxic SWFness to 45 minute lobby simulator, you obviously have not played enough on both sides. Either not enough survivor to waste enough time in lobby, or enough killer to actually not get ######### in the ass all the time.

If you really do feel like you are wasting your time, then you should simply stop playing like a lot of people are doing right now. But to put this blame on survivors is completely pointless. I mean, it's not like I'm blaming killers for these queue times, only the dodging part of it.

I believe that there is a although small, but yet important, part of the reason for killers dodging lobbies is simply that they are not that good at the game.

Hell, just yesterday someone made a video about how to deal with every single loop in the game as killer and had JenDenise (Pretty sure most people here know who Jendenise is and that she is insane) play as survivor and play VS him just to show how even a survivor with 7000 hours on the game can be beaten within 1-2 minutes of chasing, unless you suck and get mindgamed at every loop.

Which is exactly what 99% of every single person I've discussed this with seems to keep forgetting, if you are in a chase for longer than a minute or two, you've lost this chase.

I feel like I'm wasting my time when 15 min to get to a lobby then dodged as survivor, so I've quit the game. Waiting eagerly for them to fix. If you feel like you're wasting your time in anything, you should not keep giving them your time.

This is why these forums needed to keep the "LOL" reaction.

@micsan said:
Hell, just yesterday someone made a video about how to deal with every single loop in the game as killer and had JenDenise (Pretty sure most people here know who Jendenise is and that she is insane) play as survivor and play VS him just to show how even a survivor with 7000 hours on the game can be beaten within 1-2 minutes of chasing, unless you suck and get mindgamed at every loop.

2 minutes is more than enough for the rest of the team to finish 3 gens.

So if the killer plays every loop perfect and is never mindgamed, like you said a good survivor will go down in around 2 minutes. Thing is, if you chase someone for around 2 minutes, you already lost the game.

No matter what the killer does or how good he/she is, they cant really win when vsing good survivors.

Except when the killer is Nurse, then its about how good the Nurse is, if the Nurse is good enough, there is nothing survivors can do, no matter how good they are, they will lose.

Just shows how strong survivors are on this game, when there is only 1 killer that can be reliable on dictating the pace of the game.

@Master said:
So its fine that a good killer wins only if the survivors suck?

Depends entirely on your definition of winning. 4k, then yes.

@PiiFree said:

@micsan said:
Hell, just yesterday someone made a video about how to deal with every single loop in the game as killer and had JenDenise (Pretty sure most people here know who Jendenise is and that she is insane) play as survivor and play VS him just to show how even a survivor with 7000 hours on the game can be beaten within 1-2 minutes of chasing, unless you suck and get mindgamed at every loop.

Do you have a link to said video?

Sure do mate, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8u0jRxN2kQ
I recommend everyone to take the time to watch this, survivor or killer doesn't matter. It's extremely useful information.

@inkedsoulz said:

2 minutes is more than enough for the rest of the team to finish 3 gens.

So if the killer plays every loop perfect and is never mindgamed, like you said a good survivor will go down in around 2 minutes. Thing is, if you chase someone for around 2 minutes, you already lost the game.

No matter what the killer does or how good he/she is, they cant really win when vsing good survivors.

Just shows how strong survivors are on this game, when there is only 1 killer that can be reliable on dictating the pace of the game.

If you do chase someone for 2 minutes, and they do 3 gens you are still on pace to win in the eyes of Behaviour who has balanced this game towards getting two kills. Getting a 4k is like getting a flawless victory in a fighting game, by getting 4k the survivors never had a chance.

If you think otherwise, there is no wonder why you never feel like you can "win" against survivors.

@micsan said:
If you do chase someone for 2 minutes, and they do 3 gens you are still on pace to win in the eyes of Behaviour who has balanced this game towards getting two kills. Getting a 4k is like getting a flawless victory in a fighting game, by getting 4k the survivors never had a chance.

If you think otherwise, there is no wonder why you never feel like you can "win" against survivors.

Thanks for the vid, will watch it later.

A lot of 4k's happen randomly due to incompetence or overaltruism of survivors.

I often have matches where I get one hook when the gates are powered and I still ended up with a 4k in the end because they want the 4x escape so badly. It's more that Killers had ONE chance for the 4k while Survivors had 100 chances for a 3x escape but apparently 3x escape is not enough, so they throw the game and end up with no escapes at all. "Survivors never had a chance" is a very rare case in Rank 1, for a 4k it requires 4 survivors to mess up.

@micsan said:
It's just sad that such a huge percentage of killers don't realize this and base their entire SWF experience on those few games where they were vastly outskilled and it being a SWF. Even at rank 1 you rarely have people sacrificing their teammates, and I suspect that is because rank 1 people don't give a ######### about rank and a lot of them have p3 everything so they don't care about BPs either.

Just because the match ends with a 4k doesn't mean it was enjoyable for the Killer. If it takes me 5 gens to get a hook, that match was certainly not a funny experience for me. Yes, I might get lucky and 4k them, this is a very satisfying ending but the overall experience was just ######### because of those SWFs.

I played in and against many different SWFs and they all have one thing in common. They all claim: "We just play for fun!". Thing is, they don't realize that their fun usually comes at the cost of the Killers fun. I'm guilty of this myself, when I played in a SWF with voice communication I always tried to be that guy to run the Killer for ages while keeping everyone updates about their doings and failures. I did it because it's fun for us and I knew that I was playing with competent players that will be there to safe me or push through gens while I get camped. We will win if the Killer tried to ruin our fun. if the Killer was actually skilled and managed to stomp us, we'd get upset and call them sweaty tryhard.

From my experience, that's exactly how most SWFs play like. They might not be toxic per se but they still only care about their own fun, 4x escape is their number one priority and the Killers experience is mostly irrelevant, which is why I understand Killers that dodge them. If the Killer kills them, they're tryhards that don't know how to play for fun ect....

It's my reflection after 2000 hours of playtime. SWFs are more likely to ruin the opposite players experience than the other way around.

@micsan said:
I mean, in what game does anyone care about other people's fun? Especially in a PvP game.

Many players expect you to care, or how do you explain the ~600 comments on my steam profile mainly coming from Survivors complaining about my playstyle? Sounds ridiculous? I've seen Killer profiles with over a thousand insulting comments because the Survivors didn't like their playstyle.

@micsan said:
Some people do think it's fun to be a toxic sabo squad with comms as if they where a SWAT team, but I suspect they are in the minority. I've not spent even close to what you have, I started playing in Oktober and have probably spent 3-4 hours on average every day since then only very recently being turned off due to the [BAD WORD] up queue times for SWF. But, during that time I quickly got to rank 1 and have been playing at this rank for most of my gametime.
My experience with SWFs is the opposite of yours, most of them are just altruistic suicide squads that are farming BP or just goofing around having fun. Also, I play on PS4 so there is no post game chat. This removes a lot of toxicity as people are usually angry or salty after a "bad game"(example being a SWF hugging the hooked survivor and you camp because of this, then they all die because of this) and simply lash out in the post game chat because it's there and available.

Fair enough, that's your experience. I can only speak for myself based on my personal experience and that's what I stated in my post. People have to realize that their own experience is not representative for the global dbd players experience. If people refuse to play against SWFs the yobviously have their reason for that. Maybe it's justified, maybe it's not but one thing I can say for sure: Someone that just started playing DbD doesn't even know that SWF exists. They just play the game andone day they'll notice a huge difference in playstyles, that's when they realize SWFs exist and that's the moment when they start to judge them and avoid them based on the experience they leave behind.

@micsan said:
Also a side-note, If the killer is bad enough I know that some players will turn toxic because of this, simply because they are bad themselves and never actually get to be toxic. Friend of mine admitted to this one time and I told him to [BAD WORD] off with that #########.

You're the good guy that tries to make DbD a better place but trust me, many friends would join in and give the Killers twice the ######### isntead to not piss off their friend(s).

@micsan said:
This is the case for many PvP games though, if you run a cheesy character or a cheesy strategy that generally requires little skill to pull off compared to how effective it is. Fighting games often suffer from this.

This is pretty much what happens to a camper or tunneler.

I'm playing on the same steam account since 10 years and I didn't receive a single profile comment until I started with DbD. I have 3000 hours in Dota 2; 2000 hours in ARK PvP and several hundred hours in other PvP games (CS, CoD,...).

But the toxicity in DbD is another story, not really relevant to the topic (and neither is SWF now that I think about it).

I think we ended up here because people compared "deranking on purpose" with "lobby dodging" which lead to SWF = dodge, which lead to SWF = unfun, which lead to "no one cares about the opposite sides fun".

@PiiFree said:

@micsan said:
This is the case for many PvP games though, if you run a cheesy character or a cheesy strategy that generally requires little skill to pull off compared to how effective it is. Fighting games often suffer from this.

This is pretty much what happens to a camper or tunneler.

I'm playing on the same steam account since 10 years and I didn't receive a single profile comment until I started with DbD. I have 3000 hours in Dota 2; 2000 hours in ARK PvP and several hundred hours in other PvP games (CS, CoD,...).

But the toxicity in DbD is another story, not really relevant to the topic (and neither is SWF now that I think about it).

I think we ended up here because people compared "deranking on purpose" with "lobby dodging" which lead to SWF = dodge, which lead to SWF = unfun, which lead to "no one cares about the opposite sides fun".

If you played Ark official PvP I don't believe that you have not received a single message, lol. Unless you where a super good guy that never killed anyones dinos or raided anyone. That game is literally the worst in regards to other players messing up your progress, which is why I believe that game is so cutthroat and becomes Toxic because of it. That game is the best worst game I've ever played.

I do agree that the toxicity is on a completely different level in DbD, I believe it's because of the reasons you stated but also one more key point, most people don't play both killer and survivor at the same rank. This makes people extremely one sided, and since the difference between surviving and killing is so huge, a lot of hate gets thrown to the opposite side.

Saw a reddit thread a while back, "What game has the worst community". DbD was nr 1 on toxicity...It is known that this game has the worst community by people who haven't even touched this game.

@PiiFree said:

@micsan said:
If you played Ark official PvP I don't believe that you have not received a single message, lol. Unless you where a super good guy that never killed anyones dinos or raided anyone. That game is literally the worst in regards to other players messing up your progress, which is why I believe that game is so cutthroat and becomes Toxic because of it. That game is the best worst game I've ever played.

I do agree that the toxicity is on a completely different level in DbD, I believe it's because of the reasons you stated but also one more key point, most people don't play both killer and survivor at the same rank. This makes people extremely one sided, and since the difference between surviving and killing is so huge, a lot of hate gets thrown to the opposite side.

Saw a reddit thread a while back, "What game has the worst community". DbD was nr 1 on toxicity...It is known that this game has the worst community by people who haven't even touched this game.

Ohh of course there is toxicity in ARK but I didn't get a single profile comment in all that playtime. The toxicity stays ingame, no one cares about your "steam identity". Same in Dota 2 or CSGO, you get flamed in one match but they only very rarely head over to your steam profile to insult you. In DbD it's like normal (almost exclusively for Survivors, I gotta say) to head over to the Killers profile and insult them. A bit cringy imo ...but as I said, that's another story

Interesting, these things aren't really applicable to how we play on PS4 and Xbox. As you HAVE to go through someone's profile to even send a message, there is no way to communicate ingame, no post game chat.

I always suspected that this makes people less likely to send hateful messages, a very small but effective barrier. And yes, it's almost always survivors messaging killers, not the other way around.

I think I only had that happen to me once as survivor, that a killer called me "baby survivor, easiest 4k of my life" or something like that. Thing is, I was also playing solo and I'm certain the killer thought we were SWF, as he mentioned my friends also being bad and that we should just uninstall the game etc.

Getting so mad that you feel the need to go out of your way to trash talk someone is indeed extremely cringy. This is a game and a game where winning or losing really doesn't affect you at all, other then Blood Points I guess. Other games have some sort of incentive to win other than simply being the winner, or getting high rank simply to be high ranked.