Dead hard is mid
Someone has to say it because apparently everyone thinks this perk is god tier.
Most arguments for why it's supposedly god tier always describe DH being used in its BEST case scenario where you're at the perfect distance to dead hard to a pallet, but the reality is that you're not always going to be in position to be in the best case scenario. And there's even a group of people (i think a small group) who claim the perk has no downside as if the requirement of being injured to use it isn't a downside.
- It's useless against instadowns
- The usefulness of the perk drops drastically as the match goes on (because there's less pallet AND because once the killer knows you have it, they just play around it or bait it out)
- If you play injured and are against a stealth killer, you may have to use it before you want to just to avoid getting downed
I personally feel I can get better use out of Lithe or even Overcome than Dead Hard (Spring Burst has always been garbage in my mind and I will never use it).
I know pretty much the entirety of the forums will disagree with this take, but I stand by it. It's a mid perk at best
Comments
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Nah.
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I don't like using the perk because I find using it frustrating but it's definitely not mid. It's absolutely one of the strongest survivor perks in the game, imho, because of the sheer amount of pressure you lose from a single use of it.
It's useless against insta downs- what if you don't have one, or it isn't active at the moment (a la Devour Hope, Make Your Choice)?
It's less useful as the match goes on- yes, but there's one large thing you're missing. Dead Hard can both make the limited resources last for longer, as it enables you to chain tiles you have no reason to chain, allowing you to use a jungle gym into filler pallet rather than jungle gym into jungle gym pallet, effectively preserving the jungle gym for another survivor, as well as just prevent you from being able to get enough pressure to create a situation where you can drag the match on.
As a stealth killer, they make use it earlier than they wanted- correct. However, them using it then prevents you getting a down, potentially allowing them to reach a tile and suddenly you're in a chase around a tile when they could've been on a hook and you could be on your way.
It's absolutely one of the best perks in the game, imho, and even if it wasn't it still deserves a change because of the sheer frustration it brings on both sides of the game.
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To your second point about chaining tiles together (which I agree with), couldn't you also argue that Overcome and Lithe allow you to do the exact thing, but while playing from full health.
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It's not.
It's probably THE strongest Survivor perk in the game.
The only three perks I can think of being stronger were PTB CoH, OG DS and release MoM.
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Dead hard does it better because it is on command. It can also eat powers with the invincibility part.
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While you bring up a lot of great points regarding Dead Hard, you lost almost all credibility from me calling Sprint Burst “garbage”. It’s on an equal level of Dead Hard in the hands of smart survivors.
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Deadhard is good because not only can it extend a chase by making additional distance to a loop, it also provides iFrame a which not only is good against a lot of killer powers, but also forces m1s to not lunge and hold their attack until they’re in Melee range for mind games. 5 extra seconds to wait out dead hard may not seem a lot but multiple DH dragging the game out just by existing adds up to almost a solo gen.
speed boost get less useful in general if you just run out of palettes, good thing so many maps basically let you drop pretty generously and still make it to end game with more pallets to spare.
if you get caught out by a stealth killer and you use dead hard to avoid a swing, how is that even something worth complaining.
I feel like you’re confusing yourself because you think it DH can’t be applied in every situation means it’s mid, but how many perks can get you out of every situation ever in this game? I think DH is actually pretty up there relatively in that sense.
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Except, no.
Overcome you don't choose the timing of. You need to hope you're in a good place when you're hit to proc it and manage to chain the tiles.
Lithe gives you the boost on the first vault. You'd need to run to a different tile then to get the Lithe value. Dead Hard can give you 3x window vaults then into a different tile.
The big kicker that makes DH so good is you choose when you want the distance. That's not possible with the other 2 if you want full value out of tiles.
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There are like 5 killers out of 27 that can insta-down (Billy, Myers, Bubba, Ghostface and Oni).
My biggest thing about dead hard is how it neuters heavy m1 killers. Also, I feel like at this point "just bait out dead hard" is meme because I swear people play dumb like they've never heard of dead harding for distance.
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I did actually acknowledge dead harding for distance (to a pallet) as the best case scenario for the perk actually.....
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You cant lunge at injured survivors.
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This should've been in the hot take discussions lol
I respect your opinion and even have to add to one of your points. There are a lot of exhaustion related perks and add-ons that stop you getting value from dead hard.
However I think the times that it works, whether that be once per survivor a game, is still really damn good. Also I think Sprint Burst is extremely good, especially against the instadown and stealth killers you mentioned.
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I said mid first. Fine, then i go ADC.
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I understand, but just mean general when the topic of DH counters come up. And the thing about pallets also depends on game time. In theory Clown should be a god tier killer because he forces down pallets, but its just that by the time he's eaten away at them, the game can be almost over already.
I still hate that perk, but at same time, looking at BHVR's antiloop killers streak.. I can't exactly blame anyone for running it.
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It's a good perk, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Not everything that is good needs to be nerfed.
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Wrong.
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It's only mid on mid tier survivors.
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Come on man.. That's ridiculous
1. All perks are useless against insta downs (except mettle of man, which to be fair is strong when it's active... But still weaker than dead hard which will be explained).
In fact, we can argue that of all survivor perks, DH may be the closest thing TO a counter to instadown. Why? Because once you recognize the killer who has an instadown, either he downs you, and then from that point on you can play injured (and use DH as a second health state AND distance/speed boost when needed) or, if it's a fluke instadown, like say you put yourself in a bad position against hillbilly, you can feel free to heal after being unhooked and the killer may not even be prepared for you when you start taking them to favorable loops, make a mistake, take a hit, go to another loop, make a mistake, and DH out of it. That will happen on a time of the game where the killer will be completely cucked if he isn't expecting it.
Also it makes absolutely no sense saying Overcome or Lithe are better against instadown. So you mean to tell me a perk that activates ONLY when you lose a healthy health state is a better counter to One-Shot than a perk that can still have value after the unhook? In the same scenarios you just don't ever get to use it. Lithe counters maybe LF, it's not a counter to all instances of instadowns. It's not going to help you against a 1-shot huntress, for instance. DH won't on the first down by the hatchet either, but at the very least she won't have a power against you if you stay injured after the first down. You literally will be wasting not only her single hatchet, but her add-on value (assuming everyone has DH and used it smartly). No other perk can cuck a killer in such a way, and DH does that to multiple killers.
2. The idea that the perk drops in value as there are LESS resources on the map.... Like from what perspective exactly? Because if all the resources are used and you DON'T have DH, then sure, overcome and SB will get you greater distance... But you have to get injured to use overcome, and where exactly are you going if all the resources are gone?
SB will probably be better to get you to a window loop, so in that case it may have a leg up on DH, but that's assuming the game was played so badly on survivor side that significant enough resources were depleted to get to no resources in the first place, and DH wouldn't be that significantly worse in the given scenario.
3. ...Why play injured against a stealth killer tho? That's like saying you like to hold W against Bubba. If it's a stealth killer, they are likely running hit n run style perks, like Thana, sloppy, STBFL, etc. which isn't even strong in the current meta because the current meta is healing asap, especially since a stealth killer was just released. And by the time your injured you will know what killer it is, so even on the initial chase you are already in position to get value from the perk. Again, I fail to see a scenario in which another perk would be better specifically for that, SB just saves the initial uninjured chase, but if it's a stealth killer maybe you run into a bodyblock or waste SB when he wasn't planning on chasing you in the first place and now you have to go back but with a 40 second wait. Hell, SB is generally weaker against stealth killers from the jump because you don't get i-frames when using it so if you're in a tight spot when the stealth killer sneaks up, you might get hit while running away, and then what? You're playing into HnR now.
Need more reasons why DH is probably the single best survivor perk in the game?
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1. Insta downs get you once, after that you can stay injured and have DH.
2. There are always windows, and by the time every pallet is gone all the gens are probably done anyway. You use DH for distance and helps through the whole match.
3. If injured you can DH to the nearest pallet/window, although unless it's an indoor map you arent really going to get stealthed on. This issue you say applies to all exhaustion but SB.
Side notes: you can DH all ranged attacks, normal attacks, towards certain killer powers, over bear traps, through shocks, victor pounces, can be used multiple time per trial per survivor etc.
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It's amazing that Dead Hard can be so incredibly bad but every killer hates it and a good 75% of the survivors run it...
Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.
I get it, survivors don't want their super perk messed with but it would be great if people just said that instead of pretending like it's no big deal and it's merely a fun coincidence that the vast majority of players use it.
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The best case scenario is used because it's the scenario that is seen the most. Dead Harding into a wall is very rare
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Guess i'll jungle, but don't expect me to come gank your lane often
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Except I literally don't use it and don't care about the perk at all
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Cool, the Perk is still the best Perk in the game
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Meh, personally I'd argue BT and We'll Make It give me better value in a match. CoH is on par with it as is Lithe imo.
If we dive in to killer perks, BBQ, Pain resonance, Lethal Pursuer, Thanataphobia (on certain killers) give the killer better value.
Best perk in the game is highly debatable. there's plenty of perks that can give just as much or more value in one way or another
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HA,
BBQ better and more value than DH
I choked on my food
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None of those are remotely close to Dead Hard. The closest one is Circle Of Healing, no Killer Perk is close to Dead Hard.
Wanna know why? Because it let's Survivors reliably 1v1 the Killer with close to no drawbacks, as being injured is something that will happen in every game
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Lots of tasty bloodpoints to reduce the grind XD
That and the exact locations of everyone a certain distance away from you (which also lets you know if someone is close) and on certain killers (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Onryo, Billy, Demogorgon with set portals), that information is all you need to cause a snowball
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So first you say you don’t use Dead Hard then you say BT and We’ll Make It give you more value? That makes no sense. How do you know if you don’t use Dead Hard?
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Your opinion is wrong
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As a Demogorgon main, I'll tell you that the info from BBQ is not that good when it comes to snowballing
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My good fella can you please explain how BT gets you more value than DH;
You talked about killer with instant down will negate DH, what about killers with a brain that just hits the rescuer..
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I guess what I should have said was more consistent value. Using WMI as an example, the 8 second heal after pulling someone off a hook with We'll Make It means you and the unhooked survivor can get back to working on something almost immediately which saves you about the same amount of time as dead hard probably would in a typical chase.
Chase time saved by a dead hard would roughly be the same as the time saved by a quick heal and getting two people back on gens, just in a different way.
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Lithe has saved my ass more times than I can count and the best thing about it is no one expect you to have it like they expect you to have dead hard.
- Let's say I take a hit before I can use Lithe. I get the speed burst from being hit and then I can use the speed burst from Lithe to gain even more distance. Against a fast killer, that distance won't mean much but against the rest of the killers that could easily mean me getting to an extra safe tile I normally wouldn't be able to reach (which is what everyone is saying Dead Hard is good for)
- Like I said earlier, no one expects you to have Lithe so there have been time where the killer has tried to mindgame me at shack for example and they double back to the window and swing at me which under normal circumstance would've connected, but because of Lithe, I made them miss the hit and continued the loop for another solid 30 seconds to a minute.
The only thing Dead Hard really has over every other Exhaustion perk is the invincibility frame. Without that, it'd would literally probably be about as good as smash hit (that's a joke, I swear XD) But seriously, it wouldn't be all that great
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Yes, finally someone who don't Just complain about this perk
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It's as cheap as they come.
Sure sometimes they mess it up and it can be baited in the open but when they gain the distance to another loop it takes valuable time from the killer.
Like how many times do I have to mindgame someone just for a down.
It's that bad how did it even get released is my question?
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okay, lets do this one by one:
Most arguments for why it's supposedly god tier always describe DH being used in its BEST case scenario where you're at the perfect distance to dead hard to a pallet, but the reality is that you're not always going to be in position to be in the best case scenario.
You absolutely dont have to be at the "perfect distance to dead hard to a pallet [or window]" to use the Perk effectively. Dead Hard for distance is a thing you can use at literally any point in your loop, given you have to travel in a straight line. it doesnt matter at all whether you are 5m or 15m away from your desired goal, the free distance the Perk gives you lets you reach it when you otherwise wouldnt.
And there's even a group of people (i think a small group) who claim the perk has no downside as if the requirement of being injured to use it isn't a downside.
it has no downsides. the only actual downside to this Perk is that you cant go and stack it with another Exhaustion Perk after using it once. But thats not necessarily an issue, given that most Exhaustion Perks dont have an actual downside to them (except for Sprint Burst), the issue is that it is the only Exhaustion Perk in the whole game that doesnt have an activation requirement you need to fullfill as a Survivor, meaning you can use it at any time you please. Being injured is neither a downside (in fact staying injured can even be more beneficial to you than healing, as you A: can have Perks that can give you boni for being injured (such as Resilience), B: can have Perks that can negate the risk that being injured comes with (such as Dead Hard) and C: dont have to waste any time healing up, which in return is time you can sink into gens to escape quicker), nor is it an actual requirement, as you are guaranteed to meet this in 99.95% of your matches (the only exceptions being matches where you never get into contact with the Killer, get insta downed and die on your first hook (e.g. facecamp or abandoned by the team) or a Tombstone Myers)
It's useless against instadowns
it's not useless against insta downs. All insta downs achieve against this perk is to get you on a hook once before you can use it once - all you need to do now is to simply not heal and you got access to it for the rest of the trial. In other words, insta downs merely reduce its maximum amount of uses by 1.
The usefulness of the perk drops drastically as the match goes on (because there's less pallet AND because once the killer knows you have it, they just play around it or bait it out)
technically speaking correct, but not a realistic assumption to make. DH helps Survivors so massively to extend early chases, which are the most important chases of the match, that you will hardly ever reach the point where the Survivors chase extension ressources are used up. Its not a secret that the amount of time wasters Survivors have for the Killer stand in no correlation to the time it takes them to complete their objective, in other words a trial that ends with a majority of pallets and loops used up is a rather rare occurance.
If you play injured and are against a stealth killer, you may have to use it before you want to just to avoid getting downed
stealth Killers either dont have access to basekit instadowns (negating this point entirely) or their insta downs are heavily restricted and come with an requirement they need to meet first - take GF or Myers stalking for example, which costs them valuable time and, in the case of Myers, ressources. As a result hit and run is usually the better call for them, which brings DH back into the picture. also this: "you may have to use it before you want to just to avoid getting downed" - what is your point here? The perk still saves you from an otherwise certain down.
there is only one time where this Perk is actively worse than the other Exhaustion options:
in the hands of an inexperienced player that doesnt know how to use this Perk effectively yet.
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1- Out of 27, only 5 have instadown,and half of these have to earn it (oni and myers),and the other half the killer is that good to begin with (billy and ghostface),Bubba is average
2 - Deadc Hard is ######### design because it rewards poor gameplay and bad decision making.
Dbd is the first game where playing bad is justified,also,its not fair to do a skilled play as killer,especially related to looping,and get no reward for it.
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I actually don't mind that Dead Hard is a strong perk. Strong perks like BT and Unbreakable are fine. It's the fact that Dead Hard is so FRUSTRATING to play against. It makes the killer player feel useless and that their skill at the game is meaningless.
Kind of like NOED. You make every right call, go on good chases, and the gens are done and you go to the exit gate... only to get slapped once by Usain Bolt and face camped to death while the killer default dances in front of your lifeless body. It's simply not fun to play against, and that's the true core of the issue.
Post edited by BenOfMilam on1 -
BBQ..?
BBQ...?!
BBQ...?!?
BBQ doesn't work if they're nearby.
BBQ doesn't work if there's a generator in the way.
BBQ doesn't work if they have a single braincell and simply change directions for 4 seconds.
BBQ doesn't help if you already know where the next chase is.
BBQ doesn't help if the survivors are far enough away that they can reposition long before you get there.
BBQ is good because of bloodpoints. Without that it'd be a lower efficiency Thrilling Tremors with a short duration.
Post edited by EQWashu on5 -
Certainly until DH's current bug eating killer's powers when it shouldn't (the Nemmy tentacle not breaking a pallet as a classic example) it's definitely OP.
The devs have confirmed that it's a bug but until it's fixed, DH is just too powerful to skip for most.
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Disagree at literally every single point even the one shot part bc every single good player just dont heal bc its mostly a giant time waste or you just use iron will so zero down side at all for being injured
I agree with the part that everyone disagree bc its true af everyone eith couple thousands hours will do especially for the sprint burst part
Two Situations why before bhvr decided to buff DH , sprint burst was by far stronger than dh was you need less time to reach a gen thats heavily helpful if you want to rush gens Quicker but the main reason is what good players do the they time it so after the gen you sprint burst is 99 in that way you can counter every one shot in game and bait the killer in a bad position to run for an another loop
Since Dh works now literally always so long the killer isnt laggy it kicked sprint burst far away from place 1 bc it allways works now gives a good player to creed dh to the maximum really good against the current top tier killer nurse,blight bc a good nurse will try to wait dh out same does blight and both have not unlimeted dashes and blinks thats good time they lose then
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It’s not as bad as many make it seem.
There are certainly people who don’t know how to deal with it and so they use that as their “argument” for why they think it’s god tier.
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1) There aren’t many insta-down killers, none of them can insta-down all the time, and even if they do manage to pull it off, you can just stay injured.
2) It doesn’t matter because DH steals so much pressure from the killer, by that point in the match, the advantage has already been decided.
3) Staying injured just means that you get to use it on demand, or to make it to a pallet/window before the stealth killer has a chance to hit you.
The main issue with DH is that it’s near guaranteed value with little counterplay, rewards you for playing poorly, and allows you to undo a mistake or steal well earned pressure from the killer. Just one DH can turn the tides of a match by negating a vital down at a vital moment, and it can be used any number of times by up to four survivors.
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Survivors: Dead Hard is mid and flashlights are weaker than keys and maps
Also survivors: Runs Dead Hard and flashlights every game (with map offering to Badham of course)
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That may be your experience but I legit have only used Dead Hard when I went for my David King adept. Outside of that, I don't use it. I only use flashlights for challenges, and keys are legit useless now after their nerf and after the hatch nerf where it only spawns if one person is left alive.
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Dead Hard is Mid,sure. And the sky is Green. Literaly allows you to make a mistake and win the Chase. The survivors have a lot of second chance perks and all we now why. Because 80% of players that play dbd are horrible and are majority and need perks to help because they dont want to learn nothing
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The fact that you still get use from it though even in less favorable situations like dodging a stealth killer shows it is still useful. Without it in that specific situation that would be a down for the killer, but it is delayed. Instadowns are also very situational and are often overrated. It does way too much for pretty much no cost.
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10k hour player here. I consider myself a killer main, but honestly, 75% of my time is likely survivor.
Dead Hard is the best perk in the game. This isn't even a matter of opinion. You're just flat out wrong.
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