Why shouldn't a killer tunnel?
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while gen-rushing is irritating to play against, there are a few perks that you can use to slow the rush down. this strategy also doesn't stop you from enjoying the different sides of killer gameplay. having the killer chase after you specifically all game basically leaves a survivor helpless as there aren't many perks that can do much for them in that situation. you can't do anything but be in a chase the whole game, eliminating your ability to do gens, unhook, heal, and will leave you very little chance of escaping. it eliminates all other areas of the survivor experience.
i play killer myself and i often use perks like bitter murmur/claustrophobia to help me catch survivors after a gen has popped. i mean, even though i hate to endorse the use of it, NoEd works against gen-rush, too, since no one will be looking for totems.
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You don't need to explain how "big maps isn't a strategy" because that was never something I said. Please make up quotes for me, that's very unpolite.
There is definitely a lot of "exploiting" loops going on when said loops are easily chainable. And if they should be adjusted, then please do so before lobbying for giving even more power to the already easy role. Because undermining "legitimate strategies" only when they are in favor to one side is a good way to make queues even longer.
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You... did, you included "big maps" in a list of strategies, I just double checked.
As for loops, that's not exploiting them, that's using them. They're designed to be used that way, so doing so cannot be exploiting by any definition. Does that mean they're okay? God no, there are some truly nasty setups that can spawn on some maps, but the survivors who use them aren't "exploiting"- those players aren't to blame, the map generation is to blame.
Yes, killer side needs help too. I never implied otherwise, this thread just wasn't specifically about the help that the killer side needs so I didn't think to mention it. Both sides need help equally, in fact, albeit in different directions.
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while gen-rushing is irritating to play against, there are a few perks that you can use to slow the rush down.
And by the same token there are perks that survivors can use to slow down the killer. If those perks are sufficient for the killer, then surely those are also sufficient for survivors as well.
this strategy also doesn't stop you from enjoying the different sides of killer gameplay.
It not only stops you from enjoying the different sides of killer gameplay but it actually stops you from enjoying certain killers altogether, specially killers who don't have the mobility/map pressure to deal with rushes.
having the killer chase after you specifically all game basically leaves a survivor helpless as there aren't many perks that can do much for them in that situation. you can't do anything but be in a chase the whole game
Being unable to get a hook before 5 gens are done does the same thing to a killer.
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I think killer objective is to hook survivors as fast as possible when you hook one survirvor you are supposed to chase survivor two and hook him. Well sometimes when killer does not find anyone quick enough ofcourse killer is supposed to go back to the hooked survivor. But then there is also the option to go for unhooker and usually it's better if unhooked has bt protecting him and ds as well. Ofcourse you can wait bt out, slug him then and wait ds out (which is not effient). Well he can even have unbreakable... It's usually just better go after the unhooker but ideal would be down them both. But quickly tunneling someone out is not even fun for me and then when I watch the end screen and he gets what 3000 bp so did I really play well? Feels almost like cheating.
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That's called strategy.
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I said "exploiting big maps" is a strategy, not that "big maps" are strategies in and of themselves!
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That way of thinking is based around the premisse that the killer has enough time to spread hooks around when if fact if survivors are even mildly competent then going for the unhooker instead of the unhookee is a guaranteed method of enjoying the sight of tbagging survivors at the exit gates 3 hooks in. The game is survivor sided to such an extent that a a 3v1 is a balanced match, so excluding one person ASAP is simply the most reliable strategy unless you're the kind to regularly de-rank.
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You shouldnt tunnel because if you hook 4 unique survivors you get a one use mori. Wait you don't ok well you at least get a haste effect to let you traverse the map faster after hooking a survivour. Nope. Ok an insta down on your next m1 hit? Ha no way in hell. So your telling me there is zero reward or gameplay design to encourage a killer to play in a fun manner. Damn right!
Genuinely you can design bt and dses but has anyone ever thought of using the carrot approach. Give killers a reward for playing in a fun manner. Making complex ways to punish the killer for playing the tunnel camp method will only create exploitable gameplay. A killer who starts dbd defaults to camping/tunneping thats not because the people playing these roles are out to make everyone miserable the game enforces playing like a dick. If there were baseline ways to encourage the killer to hook multiple survivors like to see there killers mori or unlock a powerup, that would be a strong deterent from the tunnel and camp strat we see so often.
Dont get me wrong i do think survivors should have a comeback mechanic as well. Less survivors alive allows for faster gen repair speed, exhaustion recovery and healing. This encourages survivours to push forwards despite the disadvantage. Dbd swings too hard and whilst many purists will say dbd appeal is in its loopsided games I'd argue dbd would have a stronger prescence if it embrace basic gameplay foundational designs like good comeback mechanics.
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Ah, that wasn't clear from your phrasing, my bad.
Same counter applies as to the comment about loops. Survivors aren't exploiting big maps, they're just playing on big maps. They're not at fault, the design of the maps is at fault.
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Lets take an outrageously big map like say Mom's Shack or Crow Painting. Survivors will deliberately do gens at opposite sides of the map so that it's physically impossible for killers without mobility to prevent at least 3 gens from popping before the first hook simply because the travel time from one corner to the other is so long. That's not just playing a big map, that's outright exploiting said map's size in order to make it nearly impossible for the killer to actually secure kills. Should Freddy's teleport be made basekit in order to prevent that from happening? Why is the fact that survivors have to purchase a DLC to get DS an issue but the fact that all but 5 killers in the roster face a losing game from the get-go not an issue?
Have you ever taken the time to wonder what would happen to Trapper or Pig or almost every killer but said 5 (and even out of those 5, Freddy and Sadako are so weak all around they might as well not count) if they are denied the only strategy they have in such scenarios (camping the first hook and hoping the other 3 survivors will leave their gens and come to them instead) if BS and DS are made basekit? Or how much the survivor power budget would increase if they found themselves with 2 extra slots to equip more busted perks?
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Im red rank 1 and I would probably still not derank even if I would try. I have gone for unhooked but that ends up lot of time him looping me long enough that the time when I finally kill him there is only 1 gen left unless he is not good. But when I go gor unhooker I end up getting much more hooks and usually 3-4K. Eventually yes I make my matches 3vs1 then 2vs1.
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That's still not exploiting a map, it's playing the map efficiently. I'm not saying it's okay, I'm not saying it's justifiable, and I'm not saying nothing needs to be changed- what I'm saying is that the word "exploit" implies both that something's working differently than intended, and that people are actively choosing to abuse that thing. If it's working normally and people are just using it as its intended, that is not an exploit, it's just a badly designed part of the game.
Survivors who play on big maps aren't to blame. What's the alternative, should they intentionally play worse and make it more likely that they'll lose just because they spawned into a big map? Even if they're using an offering, the problem is still the map itself, not how people are playing on it- Red Forest wouldn't be okay if survivors clumped up on gens, it'd still be a nightmare.
As for your last comment, if both were made basekit that'd be a tremendously bad idea, and thankfully that's not on the table. Only BT is even in the discussion, and as I've been consistent about so far, I don't personally think making its actual effects basekit is a good idea- rather, the idea of something like it being basekit is a good idea. For the record, my recommendation is a few seconds of no collision, so survivors have the breathing room to make a tiny bit of distance and try to loop if the killer wants to hard tunnel them. Something like that wouldn't be as absurdly broken, and while the killer side would still need help, that doesn't change either way.
...Also, obligatory mention that Eyrie of Crows isn't that big, it's the medium/average size for a map. That's not relevant to the point, but y'know.
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The way the game is built: there is zero reason why you wouldn't want to remove a player as quickly as possible.
If survivors who have been hooked repaired gens SLOWER than survivors who haven't been hooked, killers would have more reason to try to spread the damage. Somebody who hasn't been touched all game repairs just as fast as somebody on death hook, though. So why WOULDN'T you remove them?
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Because survivors are, by law, required to have a match of NO LESS than 10 minutes, before dying. Unless they decide to pop all gens and leave within 5 minutes. Otherwise you have basically ruined their game and didn't let them play.
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Ask the dev's to equalise the objective requirements so 12 hooks is actually possible.
Doing this would require time and dedication, even possibly having to hire people!
Nah.. just take an arvo whipping up a new nea skin and call it a day.
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A killer only has 4 perks vs the survivors 16. They need some basekit advantages or there's no point in playing - it is 4v1.
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Just because they are 'legitimate strategies' doesn't mean its good design.
Yes, you're ALLOWED to tunnel, but that doesn't make it healthy to the game.
Yes, you CAN facecamp, but that doesn't make it fun or engaging to play the game.
Yes, you CAN slug people for literally no reason, but that doesn't make it fun or engaging.
These things are 'legitimate' strategies. But they are unfun strategies. And I say this as someone who mains killer. The problem is that, tunneling and camping are often necessities with playing in High MMR; because SBMM attributes 'escapes' and 'kills' to skill, you're often facing off against the same sweaty builds with heavy tunneling with the same killers.
The current state of MMR necessitates tunneling. But they can't remove tunneling or camping, because doing so would dip MMR of a lot of people and make the killer experience more miserable. But they can't slow gen speeds and still allow camping or tunneling because that would be equally unfun for the Survivors.
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Rework the hook mechanic so camping is difficult to impossible.
The problem is they don't want to spend any time or money changing the base game because they don't want to take any risks.
Add entity pools or something that the killer needs to get to and the survivor will be dangled from a random hook somewhere else on the map.
Rework the hook perks to be used on the pools and just delete sabotage done...
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yeah, we also need a basekit solution to survivors tunneling gens.
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you are underestimating the tools that survivors have at their disposal... play safe (try to catch someone with a killer like legion in a map like the game with all the survivors that play safem throwing every pallet whenever they can), use styptic agent in their medkits and having teammates who bodyblock/use boons are some good solutions (some maps will also make easier to escape from a tunneling killer like corn maps for example)
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you would appear to be pretty biased for what seems like a reasonable comparison
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What is the killer answer to 4 survivors splitting up at the start and tunneling gens?
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Patrolling and gen pressure.
We can't be complaining about survivors spawning together and all jumping on a gen to get it done in 30 seconds, and then complaining about all 4 survivors working on 4 gens separately which takes significantly more time. You might as well just say you want survivors to stand still and let you hit them. What else are they supposed to do? Especially when the game has no in built mechanic to see what others are doing when not on a SWF.
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The fact that the killer side of the game also needs help doesn't detract from or counter the assertion that the survivor side needs help too. We can and should be talking about and advocating for both to get proper changes.
This thread wasn't about what changes killers need, or I'd have mentioned that myself. This is just whataboutism.
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Survivor mains dont understand that at all. They think each of their perks should counter the killer as if it is a 1v1. They don't want balance, they want imbalance in their favor.
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It is an exploit because it leaves the killer no room for success, at least without camping or tunneling. And your suggestion is to nerf precisely the only available recourse for weaker killers. Which is my whole pointm, you are asking for killers to be nerfed without offering an equivalent exchange on their power budget.
And yes, Ravens Watercolor, due to being cross shaped, has the longest walking distance from one side to the other, even more so than Mommy's Home.
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Being red rank tells nothing of the skill of the people you go against. If you can spread hooks around without insta losing then you're simply not going against competent survivors who are capable of exploiting all their 6th chances, survivor sided map designs and overabundace of healing sources.
There is a very good reason why you see nothing but Blight and Nurse at the top mmr, and why they all tunnel shamelessly.
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The best your argument can achieve is that some changes to map size should come at the same time as the changes to tunnelling, because none of this changes that survivors don't have any input if killers choose to down them immediately after they're unhooked unless their teammate brought BT or they brought DS. I understand you're using "exploit" to just mean "unfair", but that's just not what that word means; they're still not exploiting just because it's really strong for them.
You're not going to catch me arguing that map sizes are fine, or that killer needs no changes. That just isn't what was initially being discussed- hell, I opened this by saying that I don't want killers' ability to tunnel taken away, I just want the most egregious and unfair version of tunnelling adjusted so everyone has input in the situation.
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The game doesn't work in a vaccuum. Balance necessary needs to include both sides or else it is meaningless. You can't talk about changing something in one side without also talking about chaging the other side.
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I wasn't saying that, I agreed and said the other side also needs help. Rude.
The thread contains both sides since OP included both sides. So both are valid here, not just survivors. The title is "why shouldn't killers tunnel?", not "Why can't survivors fight tunneling base kit" and they mentioned the comparison to survivors with gens in the OP.
Idk why you're yelling whataboutism when you're doing the opposite and trying to shut out killers needs as a talking point when the thread was about both sides from the beginning. If anything the thread was more focused on the killer portion that being the title and main question, yet now its whataboutism to talk about said portion?
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
I think something like this would be the answer. I suggested something similar a few months ago where if killers also killed someone before x minutes the survivors got a gen speed buff and vice versa with gens and survivors. I'd prefer, after reading your post, to just have the gen debuff come from being hooked
Unfortunately though, I don't think anything similar will ever be seen but I do think it would be the easiest solution. Besides all the other input mentioned above, DS is also behind a pay wall and any new perks will presumably also be. BHVR is a business and needs to make money and, from a purely business only standpoint, the only way base game changes that don't involve revenue would be greenlit would be if it was shown BHVR would make more revenue by doing so or the changes wouldn't take up too many resources
DS could be made a general perk but then BHVR would get blowback from anyone who purchased Laurie just for DS. Between the need to make revenue to survive and how difficult attempting the balancing would be, I don't see anything happening that would resolve this issue anytime soon.
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I apologise, I was a little quick to jump to you countering my argument instead of adding on to it, which is something some in this thread have been doing. My bad!
I do disagree with your phrasing, though. I don't think killers need a method of fighting gen rushing, I think gen efficiency just needs to be lowered overall- be that through nerfing things that increase repair speed, or adjusting spawns so survivors can't be spread out one to a gen at the very start, stuff like that. The problem there is less a tactic that survivors are employing, and more the way the game's laid out in general, y'know?
Definitely, the killer side needs some help too, especially in areas that aren't strictly one-to-one comparable with tunnelling. A lot of it is more like... map size and layout, though, rather than specific tactics, so it'll be a more nuanced solution that'd fix it.
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I've been skimming through this thread and as a killer main I've come to the conclusion that yes, survivors should have BT and DS baseline.
As long as there are still 5 gens to do. In the lore the Entity could be protecting them because it want the trial to last longer.
Most of what I hear is that the killer can just tunnel someone out real fast and that's the same as winning right there. And I agree, if you can somehow tunnel someone out before the first gen pops the survivors are in need of some assistance.
So let them have some extra chances at the start, but as soon as they start popping gens the game starts for real.
That said, it's rare beyond rare that not 1 or 2 or sometimes even 3 gens pop by the time the killer gets one hook these days even if he downs the first survivor he runs into real fast, due to BNP and massive toolboxes.
For this reason the survivors should also suffer from a 30-50% reduction to repair speed until the killer gets their first hook. Again because the Entity want the trial to go on for longer.
There we go, now the start of the trial is drawn out a bit and both sides get an baseline buff to help stave off early tunneling and gen rushing.
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Sometimes I have those kind of survivors and im proud if I can win them but that totally different game than normal match. So yeah I don't think killers should tunnel every game and devs should make it more unviable. I don't think it's good for the game health that one survivor gets taken out first few minutes of the match. I see kot of killers tunnel even if survivors they face are bad or just average.
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You shouldn’t tunnel because it ruins the experience for survivors.
But four survivors gen rushing you, blinding at every pallet, head on stuns, dead hard and BT out the wazoo, that’s just good quality fun for the killer.
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I agree with that as well, as those also address the issue in one way or another. We can either make killers more efficient or make survivors less, both can work as long as its done in a non-problematic way.
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It's also worth noting that stumbling across the recently unhooked survivor by chance is not tunneling. That's just bad luck for the survivor.
I would like to point out that it's tunneling if you're intentionally targeting the same survivor repeatedly. Tunneling is defined by intention.
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No one said killer shouldn't tunnel?
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If you don't tunnel and the survivors don't screw up, you lose. So the survivors no respect, as they'll show you none.
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There is no such thing as survivors tunneling gens. The phrase only exists to oppose survivors complaining about tunneling.
Is it tunneling if you accidentally find the same survivor before hooking anyone else? Not really. Is it tunneling if you wait out the BT to down the freshly unhooked survivor? Absolutely!
Are two survivors working on the same gen without Prove Thyself genrushing you? No. Is it genrushing if they have Prove Thyself and Commodius Toolboxes? Definitely.
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i don’t see tunneling as a problem. Same as camping.. If I see a tunneler killer I run to him and let him kill me. You only lose 1 minute and you can find another match with a fair killer
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Ah, so just throwing the game, then? Sounds like a healthy solution.
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Yes, and? As I said, I only lose 1 minute and find another good match. If the killer wants easy 4k I give it to him
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The lack of empathy for your teammates is astounding.
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I always let the killer kill me if he plays fair and he can’t kill anyone. So I die a lot helping fair killers and teammates at egc. I don’t play to escape, I play to have fun, but I don’t want to play with this kind of people, sorry
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Abstracting away from "fun". "Tunneling" for both sides can be re-defined as maximizing efficiency, for killers the 'best' way to play mathematically(disregarding second chance perks) is to down someone, and stay near them in the area pressuring the closest 3 gen if possible. After the survivor is saved, down them again, and get them out of the game asap. Repeat for other survivors and you have what should be the "best" way to play in terms of minimizing the time you spend on chases and hits being kept low. On the survivor side it is spreading out on gens at the start to knock out 3 asap by the first hook and then splitting/combining to knock out the remaining 2 and get out asap.
Killers are(rightfully, I think tunneling is boring and not fun) shamed/complained about for playing this way. Meanwhile survivors knocking out gens faster and faster is totally ok and to be encouraged because "What else are survivors going to do, play bad on purpose?" Its a hypocritical argument from the survivor side that if they maximize their playstyle its fine because its just a core feature/design of the game, however, if killers do the same on their end though it isn't fair/fun and should be penalized. Both gen speds and camping should be addressed at the same time imo. Neither is fair/fun for the other side.
Edit: The depip squad experiment is a perfect example of how survivors can 'tunnel' even with no perks. Its being as smart/efficient as possible.
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courtesy i guess? idk play how you want but don't act surprised if people get irritated by that kind of stuff.
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Also, sometimes a surv gets tunneled because they are the worst player on their team and their butt is constantly hanging out there.
Sometimes their teammates will unhook them and then lead the killer in the same direction, and both end up getting downed.
As a killer, I will very rarely intentionally tunnel, but if a surv is just constantly wandering into the action or otherwise keeping themselves right in my face, I am not going to keep ignoring them just because.
Unless the BT protected surv is intentionally bodyblocking, in which case they have it coming.
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This. All of this. This is a fundamental flaw in game design that one or the other exploits, for lack of a better term. Instead of either side asking for fixes to camping/tunneling or gen rushing, we should all be asking the devs to revamp main mechanics of the game so that both sides can have an enjoyable time without it being at the expense of each other.
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