Putting the HEX back in Hex perks
Simply had an idea that would make Hex perks and Hex builds a lot more viable. My new idea is to upgrade Hexes in one simple way. That whoever cleanses or blesses the Hex perk is afflicted with the backlash of what that perk did for the remainder of the trial. For example, if someone was to break Huntress Lullaby then that person will no longer be able to hear skill checks. A more practical example would be Hex: Ruin. The person that breaks Hex: Ruin will have any generator that they are working on regress if they stop working on it if they were working on it alone.
Just a unique spin on what they could be to add some spice and not always have it be an automatic bless/ cleanse issue.
Comments
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Me on my way to get instantly mori'd for cleansing Devour Hope.
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Only if it had 5 stacks when you cleansed it. A way for it to be fair and give Hexes a much needed power boost.
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Yeah, that's a bad idea.
I don't know how to fix them, but I know you shouldn't PUNISH players for making the right play.
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I am selfish enough that I just wouldn't cleanse hexes. Bring on the Mori's.
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How is it a bad idea. The Mori would only apply to the person who cleansed it if it was cleansed with all 5 tokens. If cleansed before then the person that cleansed will only be afflicted with Exposed for the remainder of the trial. In a way it makes you think of doing what is good for you be what is good for the team, an aspect that is surprisingly lacking in a death game.
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If you can't understand how putting players into a lose-lose situation might be a poor idea, idk how to help you.
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We’ll watch the world burn.
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I dunno, BHVR seems ok with that when it comes to certain killer powers.
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I think Killers should just be able to rekindle them as long as they're happy to take the time to do so.
Killer rekindling should take half the time of survivor cleansing because 'black magic stronger thwn light magic' or whatever.
It's only the same as Pentimento anyway.
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Another "let's make my side even easier than it already is" thread.
Hexes are powerful, and their trade off is, they can be broken.
There's nothing to fix.
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So if you cleanse noed your still exposed?
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So basically you want to punish the player for cleansing the totem they are supposed to cleanse? They are supposed to be strong perks which can be removed.
Literally the only problem with hexes is the actual totem spawns and survivors spawning on top of them.
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I understand just fine about lose-lose situations but I find that it would be better to elaborate on what situations you would see as lose-lose in the case of Devour Hope instead of just base criticism without further explaining why.
My idea stemmed from what the word Hex itself means, which means to curse or bewitch something or someone. I adapted the idea of a single person being hexed when it is broken or cleansed due to a need to provide some spice for Hexes other than the decision to either bless or cleanse them with no downside. Even Devour Hope under this idea wouldn't even do anything unless the Killer had 3 or more tokens as if it was cleansed beforehand it would do nothing.
However, I do understand that having a permanent status effect for the whole game is quite punishing for some players. Maybe having it effect you until you are put into the dying state might mitigate some of the more problematic perks.
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I like that idea as well as it would also be like a tug of war between hexing and blessing if it doesn't sink to much time into it.
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Or just have the hex re-light itself after 60-90-120 seconds if there are any unbroken totems around (including hexing booned totems). Makes survivors want to cleanse all the totems, gives killers some protection from survivors spawning on top of hexes (while still giving survivors considerable benefit for winning the early-game lottery), and gives a very minor anti-boon effect for the less mobile killers.
Easy peasy.
But no. Hexes will stay garbage and boons will stay broken.
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Just trying to start a discussion about how to improve Hexes but didn't take long for someone to assume I'm "maining a side" just because the discussion is about the Hex mechanic. We all know the saying for those who assume so lets skip that bit.
Honestly out of all Hex perks only a few see consistent use while others are either niche or ever rarely see play outside of the a designated "meme build".
As to them being powerful that would depend more on map and spawn location, which the Killer can't control, and as there are no protection outside of Hex: Undying or spawning in good spot I would say that there is at least one thing to fix. In my opinion I would just make either the Killer say some input about where it goes or at least not spawning near a Survivor objective would go a long way.
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It would only be the person that cleansed it but that honestly would probably help as if they are not camping the NOED or if they don't hook a person near it that would actually be smarter to make yourself exposed and taking it off the team.
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That's also a great idea and would actually carry some synergy regarding old Undying without the aspects that made it broken. Also a way to spice up some games as both Killer and Survivor vie for control of the overall game state and not just the same stale gameplay.
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Well, but following that logic, 95% of survivor perks should be buffed. Because the meta has been the same for 5 years, since the same perks are always the strongest, because the rest are just trash.
Hexes being certain map-favoured and situational is normal, just like a lot of builds for survivors are very situational. Honestly hexes don't need any more buffs. In many occasions and especially playing with randoms, hexes are even too strong.
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I could agree with the argument about playing solo as asking for it in this current climate might be a bit much. Also agree with your argument about buffing Survivor perks but would also say to buff Killer perks as well as for both sides about 90% of the perks are utter garbage or again designated to the "meme" section. Although I wouldn't necessarily call it a buff as it would go from the entire team to just one person, and even then as I stated to @Pulsar earlier it probably would be better to just have it go to they are put into the dying state to have it not linger.
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to be fair, there is a lot of lose/lose design in this game. Stuff like god loops, breakable doors, cleansing vs plague, healing vs legion and so on come to mind.
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Haunted Grounds + Retribution
nope
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Boons are powerful, and their trade off is, they can be snuffed... and re-Blessed??
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The core problem here is most hexes do not fall into the "powerful" category for a variety of reasons. You could turn most hex perks into perks that had no way of getting turned off and the vast majority would still not be run because their effects range from "too weak, too ineffective until late game, too niche" and the like . Picking on huntress lullaby, by the time you get 5 hooks against a competent team there should be 1, maybe 2 gens left with some serious progress made on those. Outside of ruin, devour hope, and undying to protect those two, most are pretty garbage/relegated to meme builds.
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This would make the gap between solo q and SWF even larger, since no one would want to cleanse the hex
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Hex perks shouldn't glow for survivors, they should all look like dull totems to them. This makes them harder to find as they wont hear them crackling and they'll start wasting more time cleansing all totems since they can't tell which is the right one.
If we're not gonna fix totems spawns this is the next best thing and saves you having to go back and tweak every map.
I don't think your idea of punishing the cleanser is the right route to go.
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Doesn't mean they should spawn right at the survivor's face,also not every hex is "powerful" only 3 of 10+ are good
Devour Hope
Ruin
Undying
And maybe pentimento but that's it
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Survivor should not be punished by cleansing Hex. But Hex should be reworked as force multiply time buying for killer, because Hex's spawn placement & survivors randomly spawn near a Hex is not fair.
Hex should work like Plaything, taking hit or hook will turn a Dull into Hex that applies only to that survivor. Which mean, you can pick a single Hex perk and you can create a whole 2nd objective on survivor side (because a Hex perk applies on 4 Dulls instead of 1), but requires some work.
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While I'm not sure about that applying to existing perks, it would make an interesting new hex perk that tricks you into cleansing it, kind of like Haunted Grounds except it's for the rest of the trial like you suggested. Or maybe it could apply to existing perks, but as a secondary hex you have to bring to pair with other hex perks, similar to Undying and Thrill of the Hunt.
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IMO hex perks should just have some kind of weaker effect when cleansed so that if they pop 30 seconds into a match you aren’t just instantly down a perk. Like if Ruin gets cleansed, gens don’t autoregress anymore but when kicked they regress a little faster than base. Something like that.
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Their trade off is, they take forever to be blessed, time you don't spend repairing, healing, or unhooking.
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That's not true. The Third Seal, NOED, Retribution, Haunted Grounds... all of them are powerful given the right circumstances.
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They take 14s, exactly how long it takes to cleanse a totem. That's not really a trade off, because it's exactly the same cost as cleansing the totem anyway. (it's actually less of a cost than cleansing, because you don't lose the totem entirely)
For example compared to Inner Healing. You spend 14s cleansing a totem, you spend that totem (it doesn't come back) and you get to heal yourself in a locker, once. Maximum 5 uses per game, IF no one else touches totems.
CoH however, you spend 14s blessing a totem, everyone can heal up in a comparable amount of time (finding a locker + 8s to heal, compared to ~16s to heal yourself or ~8s to heal each other), multiple times, and on top of that, if the killer disables it, you can repeat it an unlimited number of times
Even if you couldn't rebless a totem multiple times, you'd still get 5 uses per game, each of those having multiple heals on multiple survivors. It would still be significantly more powerful than Inner Healing.
I'm not agreeing that Hexes should be more powerful to compensate, but if boons spent the totems they used by way of being destroyed on snuffing out, then they'd be far more balanced in comparison.
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Cursed totems should just have immunity for the first 30-60 seconds of the match. That would be fine
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Third seal ? You serious ?
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This would work. Or, the penalty for cleansing a Hex scales with this early game countdown.
So if you cleanse it within the first 60s, you still suffer from the Hex for the remainder of that time.
Not sure how Ruin would work for that though. Maybe each Hex simply has it's own unique penalty for cleansing in the first 60s. Ruin's could be your repair speed is reduced by 30% for the remaining time.
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Absolutely, a hit and run slugging killer can do a lot of damage by inflicting everyone with blindness. It also protects itself, as any perks or items that reveal the aura of totems won't work.
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I don't think that would work since Haunted Ground, Plaything, Retrobution, Undying and Pentimento work differently than the other Hex perks.
Don't get me wrong, it's a really interesting idea and would make the games spicier. But it would probably cause a lot of problems, one of them being that no one wants to cleanse Hexes. And I honestly think that Devour Hope could be a bit problematic.
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Understandable. Also a very good idea because they should at least be like NOED and only light up once their activation requirement is met. For example, Devour Hope not lighting until first rescue from hook of killer is far enough away.
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A very fair point as it could be problematic with the way some Hexes work. I also understand about the Devour Hope fear. Would having it last until you are put into the dying state mitigate some of the issues that would be problematic.
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I think its a great idea.
Maybe not the hex effects but definitely some kind of curse for cleansing them would be awesome, you either leave it up and suffer its effects or you risk cleansing it and bringing some terrible fate to yourself.
Hex's go from being a group wide effect to being a single target effect.
Rather than having all these defensive hex's like retribution etc., the nature of hexes just makes them inherently dangerous to interact with. Are you willing to pay that cost as survivor to help your team?
Hard choices make for interesting games. Lose-lose situations are at the very core of survival horror. Providing they don't result in your immediate elimination from the game then I think its a great idea.
The current cost element to hexes is you lose time cleansing them, but lets face it if you are pressed for time as survivor in the current meta you aint doing very well anyway.
I don't get why people are so militantly opposed to any kind of attenuated net loss game element. A very on theme damned if you do damned if you don't scenario were you are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils could be a very exciting game mechanic.
I don't get this mindset of all's fair everyone should feel empowered in the horror realm of DBD in the name of competitive fairness, in what is already an asymmetric game experience based on horror survival.
The idea is a good one, maybe not the specifics of how the OP wanted the mechanics to work, but it would definitely make hexes and gameplay more interesting.
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Easy Fix;
- Add hexing mechanic where the Killer can hex dull totems (same time it takes to place Pentimento).
- Hex Totems no longer spawn on a dull totem at the start of the match. Instead when the Killer has a hex totem available all dull totems are revealed by a yellow aura, and they can go up to one of these dull totems and hex it with their perk instead.
- Cleansing or Booning a Hex Totem removes the Hex, and all stacks on that hex.
- Killer can hex other dull totems with their hex so long as their is an available dull totem. (Only one instance of that hex can be up at the same time - I.E you can't hex multiple dull totems with the same hex).
This makes it that the Killer can get more use out of Hex perks instead of just getting 20 seconds of use at the start of the match. It also means the Killer has to spend a few seconds or more to hex a dull totem. It also means the Killer has more control over where their hex is placed so they can place them more strategically than being a glowing orange/red beacon atop a white hill on Ormond.
Survivors will have to use Boons with the understanding that if the Killer snuffs their boon they can hex that totem right after, and deciding if they want their infinite boon and deal with an infinite hex perk, or cleanse the dull/hex totem from the match (and having to cleanse all 4 other totems to remove possibility of the hex entirely).
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Is that really an easy fix? Forcing a killer to spend even more time setting up before searching for survivors? Where they can also stalk the killer, seeing where they decide to place their hexes?
Methinks you'll need to go back to the drawing board on that one.
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If the Kill Your Friends mode could implement more special rules, this would be a pretty neat one to have!
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