The worst endgame perk
I've seen many complaints about killer perks for endgame like No Way Out, Blood Warden, NOED, etc. and while I've seen plenty of arguments for and against these perks being reworked, I think there's a survivor perk that much more desperately needs reworked for both killer mains' and survivor mains' sake, Left Behind.
Left Behind means that unless you're so unlucky that the hatch spawns right in front of the killer, you get a free escape. You don't even have to do anything all game; watch your teammates die, never play remotely risky, hide from the killer all game and tap gens to avoid idle crows when the killer is on the other side of the map. Do that, and you can escape in 90% of your matches, simply because you know where your free win is and the killer doesn't. You could even bring a key every game to ensure that you still get the hatch even if the killer kicks it closed.
Beyond newbie Bills and people going for the adept achievement, the people who run Left Behind are always the worst players in the match as they don't help out their teammates at all and may never once encounter the killer yet still get a free win. If I'm playing survivor and you're my teammate running this perk, I hate you. If I'm playing killer and you're running this perk, I feel bad, because even though I got a 3k which is a technical win, I didn't get to sacrifice the survivor who more than likely deserved it the most. And any time someone with Left Behind does escape (which is inevitable), every single one of their teammates complains in the postgame chat because they also know that the worst player got a free win from a single perk available to everyone. It's horrible for everyone except the people running the perk.
This is the same reason why everyone hates MMR and the devs are reworking it. It rewards playing selfishly and defining a "win" as whether or not you and only you escape at any cost, when survivor is an inherently team game and survivors should be encouraged and rewarded for playing altruistically. Your solo queue teammates shouldn't be doing things like self-caring for 32 seconds right in front of you while you're trying to quickly heal them, then ignore you when you need healed, just because they want survivor to be a single player experience.
Even if it's rather uncommon to see this perk being run, this is the one survivor perk that I think definitely needs reworked entirely. I think it would be healthy. Maybe make it so instead of seeing the hatch's aura, you can unlock the hatch without a skeleton key at the cost of sacrificing a perk slot. It would only work if the killer kicked the hatch closed and left, and you found where it was. That seems fair to me, even if it would still be a selfish perk, but I'd like to hear other people's suggestions for reworks too.
Comments
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You jelly.
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Tbh I think it just shouldn’t do anything related to hatch and should have a completely different effect.
Hatch perks are not healthy for the game.
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Obvious bait is obvious. Unless you legitimately want to out yourself as being deadweight in every single match that runs exclusively selfish perks and lets all of your teammates die, in which case, go right on ahead.
I agree. Imagine if there was a killer version of Left Behind, where the killer could see the aura of the hatch. The amount of "I'M QUITTING DBD FOREVER" posts would increase tenfold until BHVR removed it before it even left the PTB stage.
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It mainly just exists for people doing their archives, otherwise you should literally never use it. It's not even worth using outside of that because it's still no guarentee you'll get the hatch, and even if you do, if you were deadweight for your team you'll still get hardly any BP.
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As any facecamping Bubba will tell you, BP gains will not discourage poor play. There are also plenty of ways to farm BP solo, such as sabo'ing the same hooks over and over with gloves, cleansing totems, doing the first generator you come across and then letting your team deal with the rest of them, and so on.
I'm not against the concept of the hatch itself. A 1v1 is always killer sided, so giving a potential second chance that is mostly up to luck isn't a terrible fix to that. But Left Behind removes that luck aspect.
"If you have an archive to do X and then escape, why bother repairing all generators and making sure your whole team lives? It would be much easier to let them die and then get hatch because the killer doesn't know where it is. Hell, might as well farm them off of hook without Borrowed Time so they die quicker. Even easier win." That's the kind of mindset that this perk rewards.
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You lose to hatch a lot huh.
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No, not really. It's a 50/50, and sometimes I give hatch to the last survivor because I feel they deserve it. Besides, a 3k is still a win for killer, unless your goal is to farm BP, in which case a win is whatever gets you more points. So a survivor getting out through the hatch isn't a loss, I still killed a majority of the team.
This perk mainly bothers me when I play survivor, trying to do dailies, archives, pips, whatever, and then the one teammate that did nothing all game lets everyone die and gets away with it because they brought this perk.
But nah, sure, I'm "jelly" of a perk I already have, that everyone already has, because Bill is a free character.
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Imagine running Left Behind when Clairvoyance exists.
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Forgot that affected hatch as well for a moment. Yeah, I'd say all of this applies to Clairvoyance as well. Cleansing totems is good and all, but not "cleanse one dull totem = easy escape for you if your team ######### up". The perk is otherwise fine but shouldn't include the ability to find hatch imo, especially not at such a ridiculous distance. You can even bring a key, drop it, activate Clairvoyance, then pick up the key again and escape that way.
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I feel like the perk should be reworked, along with Sole Survivor while we're at it. Both perks rely on teammates dying, which is not a good condition to have, and even when that condition happens the perks still suck. No idea what they could be changed to, maybe they should have different names and effects altogether
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Sole Survivor isn't any good, yeah, but I agree that perks that reward either side for playing poorly aren't good for the game. More perks should reward the player for doing well towards their objective. Survivor perks that get stacks for completed gens or safe unhooks, killer perks that get stacks for hooking multiple survivors, and so on.
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I would say no one left behind
Considering they changed it to only working when endgame collapse is activated for some reason? When it used to work in both stages of the endgame
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Solo queue is a wasteland exactly because everyone is willing to watch their teammates die, and exactly because perks like left behind exist.
If you hate solo queue, and you hate performing altruistic actions as survivor, maybe don't play solo queue.
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I 100% Agree.
At this point, it is only useful to cheese out those incredibly annoying "Open Hatch" challenges.
It really needs a rework that gives it a big impact if the survivor truly is Left Behind
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This perk becomes active when you are the only survivor remaining in the match, or the End Game Collapse has begun.
See the aura of the Killer and the Hatch when they are within 16/24/32 meters.
When another survivor leaves the match or dies, you are instantly healed for a health state over the course of 4 seconds.
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Giving wall hacks to survivors and a free health state when their friends die or get out of dodge, this perk can become pretty powerful. It can even be coordinated to a stupefying effect by numerous survivors. However, in practicality, this incarnation of the perk shines when you are at your most desperate moments at the very punctuation of the match. When you are the last one, or the forgotten one. Dying on the floor as your last living teammate leaves you for dead and another just died on hook? Congrats, you’ve been left behind - you’re restored to full health. The counter to this perk is in its own name - the killer is going to have to make this survivor the one that gets left behind. The perk, however, loses all of its potential when the opposite is true. When the killer either takes out the designated survivor before the end game arrives, or if they focus on other players during the final moments of the match. In reality, this can be seen as an ‘Adrenaline on drugs’ but can only be triggered in very particular situations. End game builds will have to contend with the healing as the final kills are mounted, but so long as the exit gates remain closed and the survivors are trapped as a group within - the perk refuses to shine its true colors, making it a true value pick for anyone who plans on making a clutch play.
What do you think?
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Well, first of, i used to run left behind, because i only play solo.
So in half the games someone either dcs or hook suicide before more than one gen is done, giving the killer a free win. Then 2 things can happen. You can still try to fight, and if that doesnt work, you can go for the hatch, via left behind. Or you can just run up to the killer and hook suicide yourself, which i sometimes do when this happens and i dont run left behind. Why play a match were i wont escape anyway because one of my teammates dont like the map or killer? A waste of time. The posibility of the hatch keeps me going then.
Also, while i run this perk (no, actually clairvoyance now), i do gens, i help my teammates, but yes, i avoid getting hooked, and are often blamed for it, even though i am in chases with the killer but since most killers are not used to getting juked anymore, i often escape a chase unhooked. Yet, i am blamed for that, even though i wasted the same amount of time with the killer than everyone else.
So, your sterotypes of users of certain perks are just stupid and wrong, because how i am the worst player if 2-3 others are gen allergics that dont touch gens at all, or dc because the map didnt spawn them beside a gen?
Also, since Clairvoyance is far superior to left behind, since it has a 64 meter range. And yes, i will keep it, because otherwise, i spent too much time trying to die to get a decent game.
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Anyone running Left Behind instead of Clairvoyance is making a mistake, Clairvoyance is so much better when it comes to hatch game. Although, since left behind is free, makes sense why people might use it more to find hatch.
It definitely sucks though having the one survivor who didn't deserve it escape, usually when I play killer I try to punish this type of behavior. You have to remember though that hatch doesn't affect MMR, so when they escape through hatch they don't actually "win" according to the game.
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I think that being able to see the killer AND the hatch would make it even more of a "free win" which is not what I think a perk should be. Getting healed one health state when you're the last person in the match doesn't sound so bad, but healing two health states at once sounds a bit much.
Admittedly this can already sort of be done with adrenaline - if you let the killer find the hatch first and kick it closed, you get healed and a speed boost, same as if you finished repairing gens. But Left Behind could be a free heal without the hatch getting kicked closed, leaving you a chance to escape that way as well. Would also make it a decent anti-slugging perk in a way, so killers can't slug at 5 gens and get a 4k.
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I understand solo survivor is frustrating - believe me, I do, I reached rank 1 for the achievement while solo and it was hell - so I can definitely understand favouring selfish perks or at least having 3 out of 4 perks being selfish and maybe bringing Borrowed Time as well. But my point with Left Behind (and being able to see the hatch aura through Clairvoyance) wasn't that nobody ever who runs this perk deserves a win, my point was that it makes "winning" too easy for the survivor that brings it, ESPECIALLY if you were to play incredibly selfishly. So in your example above, you were still pulling your weight for the team - but let's say one of your teammates brought Left Behind/Clairvoyance, and they really want a win, so they know that by not playing altruistically, not only are they safer, their team is more likely to die off, which makes them more likely to find hatch. So by pulling your weight, you're putting yourself in more danger, making it more likely you'll die, and more likely that your teammate who just left everyone for dead and hid in a locker gets out.
Do you see the issue? The effect of the perk isn't so much the issue as the fact that the perk rewards people for playing poorly. Even the most meta perks on survivors that everyone complains about, like Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, etc. are all only "second chances" that will eventually run out if the killer were to play around them or keep tacking on pressure to go for a 4k. Realistically, how can a killer play around someone hiding across the map in a locker that's more than likely going to escape because they brough a perk that lets them see the hatch? Sure, they still "won" and got a 3k so the killer probably doesn't care all that much, but your teammate also technically "won" over the rest of you who probably deserved it more. And for so long as your teammates can have perks that encourage and reward selfish play, it's only going to make solo survivor a more agonizing experience.
Think about all the times someone self cared in front of you and refused to let you heal. Think about all the times someone came up to you for a heal, and when you needed healing, they teabag you and then run away. Think about all the people who kept trying to flashlight stun the killer out in the open and yet made no attempt to save you or your teammates when you got picked up. Should these people really be rewarded for this kind of playstyle just because they brought a single "get out of jail free card" perk?
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Two health states may be a bit much - I can see it being limited to one.
Although, I'd like to discuss the aura reading of the killer being a 'Free out' - I never thought this was the case, seeing the killer's aura is pretty strong in certain circumstances, but it is far from OP in my book.
What's your thought process of why it's so strong? What makes the aura read a 'Free Out' ?
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Survivors like that are going to be useless regardless. They would just fill that slot with another “selfish” perk and still not contribute to the team , if it didn’t exist. I have a Left Behind build on Felix (with Open Handed) and if I’m the last person standing, I don’t feel like I find it a lot more than when I play another build without it. It does come in handy sometimes and it helps. But there have been times I’ve seen the hatch pop up next to the hook where my last teammate died and the killer was standing right there- more than I care for.
I wouldn’t stress it because remember it’s a DRAW, NOT a win. That person is not doing themselves any favors by playing like that. They are not getting better at the game, and their MMR is not increasing with that build. They’ll be stuck where they are currently, for a long time. Players like that are either new (and they will learn to do better if they become a true fan of the game), or they are just a plain bad casual who will eventually move on to something else.
Rest easy. He doesn’t get the hatch every game with Left Behind- even if he’s always last. Not even 75% of the time. Maybe 55-60%, and again- that’s just to DRAW.
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Not sure if anyone already mentioned it in the replies, but hatch does not count as a win in MMR, it is a tie. Still, MMR sucks.
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For real? Are we complaining about "Left Behind" now? What's next? "Monstrous Shrine"?
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In my opinion, Clairvoyance is a better perk, assuming you have Mikala
Not going to lie, I like the idea of the rework that you mentioned. The reason why it is because now there is a perk called Clairvoyance, which does the same thing but better. You find a bone to activate the perk and when your the last survivor alive, you get to see the hatch within 64 meter (Vs 32 meters from Left Behind). So, reworking it to make it where you no longer see the aura of the hatch and opening withouth a key of sorts would be a good rework, in my opinion.
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My point is that seeing the killer's aura AND the hatch's aura would mean that any decently experienced survivor would know how to make it from where they are to the hatch without being spotted. Seeing a killer's aura throughout a match with things like kindred can be helpful but far from unbalanced. But getting to see the killer plus your free exit while the killer doesn't see either bar luck being incredibly in their favour is overdoing it for sure. It might even turn it into a popular perk if it worked like that, honestly.
It's not about whether it's a win or not - as described above, hatch is pretty much never considered a win except for maybe the sole survivor who got their 5000 extra BP for escaping. It's about the kind of behaviour it rewards and indirectly promotes just by being there.
You joke about it, but I can tell you without even checking that people have complained about Monstrous Shrine before. More than likely in one of the many posts about basement Bubba. People will complain about any perk, I'm aware I'm not much different. I just personally dislike perks that reward bad play or encourage bad behaviour. I like No Way Out as an endgame perk because it rewards you for playing well, I dislike NOED as an endgame perk because it rewards you regardless of if you played your heart out or went afk all game. You feel?
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Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but if I look at the endgame screen and there's a Bill with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable and Left Behind, it's pretty obvious he's either new or going for the adept and I wouldn't mind if he were my teammate. It's hard to blame new people for being new and everyone goes for adept achievements at some point or another. Hell, I have the adept Bill achievement too. Ended up escaping through the exit gate anyway lmao
And I mean yeah if someone's going for archives then do whatever, chances are you weren't playing seriously anyway, but I don't think hatch challenges should be a thing in the first place since there's so, so many factors going into whether any of your games will even come down to "killer vs last survivor trying to find the hatch first". At least challenges like cleansing totems, unhooking other survivors or even doing glyphs, you can do those (nearly) every single game. But challenges is a completely different discussion altogether.
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Gotcha!
I'd say it's agree to disagree at that point. I don't think it's all that more powerful in practice, but we absolutely agree that this change would make people actually take the perk - which is exactly what we all want.
I'd like to see some data on a version like this though, if it helped survivors in the End Game but wasn't absolutely broken - it would help make it a much more popular perk.
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Left Behind seems to be asafety blanket for new players. They startle easy, so let em have it.
They'll take it off when they are ready.
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Pretty much. I understand that sometimes your team messes up and it can screw you over, which is why I don't even mind most "selfish" perks, but getting to see the hatch with Left Behind/Clairvoyance means that you're on average more likely to get an escape by actively being harmful to your team's overall success. My point is that Left Behind should be something to help a survivor who is "left behind" because their other teammates have died, but not something that would help a survivor to the point where they would WANT all of their teammates to die.
More perks should be made to encourage players, both survivor and killer, for doing their objectives and doing them well. We're Gonna Live Forever rewards BP for safely unhooking and taking protection hits, BBQ & Chili rewards BP to killers for hooking multiple people instead of just one or two people over and over. While the reward shouldn't always be BP, more perks should be like this, in my opinion.
Imagine if NOED worked on tokens, where each survivor hooked before the exit gates are powered provides a 1% bonus to movement speed when it activates, up to a maximum of 4%. If you have 4 tokens, all survivors become exposed until the totem is cleansed. It would still be a powerful perk but you would have to at least work for it.
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No, perks activating when Survivors die is fine, it's just that perks like Sole Survivor need drastically different effects, preferably better ones, in today's meta.
What those effects would be that wouldn't make these forums angry, I don't know.
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Don't forget that it's also great for "escape" related challenges, and great for anything regarding hatch, plus it's a potentially good solo queue perk if you get a bad team but don't want to lose MMR.
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I should clarify my complaint here is not about beginners or people going for the adept. Losing a match as survivor because your team is newbies can be frustrating, sure, but they're new. They'll get better and learn. We were all new once.
But I have legit seen people with over 800 hours or so run three meta perks and then left behind as the fourth perk, and even though that person is supposed to be experienced and have mostly strong perks that could help them throughout the match, they do one gen and then hide in a corner of the map, and you can see them with aura reading while on hook and they clearly have no intention of helping out you or your team.
On the other side of things, I remember a match recently where I got a pretty brutal 3k at 3 gens on the new Haddonfield. Didn't even see one of the survivors the whole match and they escaped through hatch. I thought "oh well, still a win in my books" and went to type gg in chat like normal. Then all three other survivors started complaining that the survivor who escaped sat on about half a gen and then crouched in a corner for the rest of the match, didn't even heal people when they walked up to her, let alone go for unhooks. Felt really awkward. And I thought to myself... Yeah, if I was playing survivor this match, I probably also would've felt cheated for being paired up with a teammate like that. Guess what perk that survivor was running.
Anyone who has a decent amount of experience with the game should not be playing poorly intentionally because they know they can and will get away with it, is the point I'm making.
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I should clarify the above example is pretty rare as pretty much any survivor with more than 50 hours in the game is running full meta perks anyway, but the fact that the people who do exploit this kind of mechanic have probably done it far, far more times than I've ever seen, worries me. And it worries me that it might encourage others to do the same.
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Agree 100%.
I guess I'm at a loss, because I don't know of any particular way to make something like Left Behind potent in its niche without, perhaps, encouraging players to favor the niche.
Left Behind is best when you're playing with other selfish people - or perhaps with lower skill teammates.
It's hard to make a perk that helps players survive in spite of their teammates, without making them spite their teammates for their own sake.
(Also, I'd love to see a token based NOED!)
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Left Behind and a key is one of the most satisfying solo queue combos
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Hatch challenges were much easier before they changed Hatch mechanics. Before, hatch was very easy to get, and I think they just don't want to revisit all their old tome challenges to fix them because Hatch is still a possibility, just much harder to pull off for a challenge.
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