Oof Legion

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Pulsar
Pulsar Member Posts: 20,668

Legion's rework was good for the Legion mains (myself included) but boy has it brought the fact that Mending is extremely unfun right back into the spotlight.

These have been reminiscent of the old Forever Freddy games. It's not that Legion is OP, it's just that he's SO incredibly unfun and boring to face.

Thoughts on how to make him more engaging?

Comments

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,253
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    your the one who said legion is terrible. he was always centered around this gameplay. He is stronger at what he was already successful at in his previous iteration.

    Don't see what the problem is.

  • MB666
    MB666 Member Posts: 965
    edited May 2022
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    making mending take 50% less but deep wound last less longer like 10 seconds or 12. (since Deep wound legion no longer exist)

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,347
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    Again I think it's important to note that fun, especially when it comes to going against killers in dbd, is very subjective.

    Of course I doubt many people enjoy mending constantly, but I can see why some people aren't really bothered with it either. It's there to buy Legion time, meaning longer lasting matches, which as it's upside allows Legion to be weaker in chases, meaning more counterplay, at least when it comes to trying to prevent going down.

    To me Legion has always been ok, not a killer I really look forward going against, but not one I hate going against either.

    It seems that DBD is in that state where killers either need good slowdown and/or fantastic map pressure, which some don't like because it makes matches more drawn out, or very good chase potential, which some other people don't like because it limits the counterplay survivors have more.

    Of course killers can also be in between, but even those killers I can see being disliked. In general, with the current objective for survivors, killer really need to be very strong, even oppressive maybe, to be fully viable even at the highest ranks. Which allows for a lot of frustration potential in killer designs.

    I guess killers with great map pressure are probably generally liked more than killers with noticeable slowdowns like Legion though, because of more interaction. Though I would argue the last example of that, Sadako, isn't particularly strong despite her great map pressure, and could need something more.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,637
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    Simply because a killer needed a buff doesn’t mean it’s okay to for that killer to have something boring about their design.

    I don’t even think that legion’s mending is really an issue, but I know several players find it boring and justifying it with “the killer was terrible” isn’t a good argument. Fun and balance are two different things.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389
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    I cannot wait until a new killer comes out and people stop complaining about legion. It's grating.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389
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    What's boring? What's not? Personally I find artist boring. She chases you to a loop, puts down birds. You leave and go to the next loop. You probably eat a health state. This is many times duller than legion cuz I can't do anything about it. Legion has counterplay and figuring out how to leverage it is fun and engaging.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389
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    The deep wound timer could be six seconds and it would still be completely inconsequential.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,668
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  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,558
    edited May 2022
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    Add Defeaned to Deep Wounds. This adds an increased skill cap to Legion and gives them more out play potential. Are they going to spread Frenzy or breaking line of sight and doubling back? Not as punishing at lower ranks but gives more outplay at high ranks.

  • Zeon_99
    Zeon_99 Member Posts: 463
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    They could definitely get away with lowering the mend timer, although people would just mend immediately then Legion would just get frenzy downs more often.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976
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    Spitballing an idea here but what if the time to mend others was reduced?

    Now it's 8 seconds, what if it was lets say 4.

    Then survivors have the option to do something against the slowdown of mending but give the legion player more easy acces to their power by grouping up.

  • Valik
    Valik Member Posts: 1,274
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    They really need to make little skill-based minigames to make holding M1 a lot more engaging.

    Until they make the entire 'Hold M1' system a bit more entertaining, mending and repairing are going to be the most boring aspects of the game bar none.

  • Regulus47
    Regulus47 Member Posts: 450
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    Remove mending! Just make it so that when you're hit by legion's power you can't heal for like 16 seconds instead. That does the same thing but is much better to fight against.

  • MikaelaWantsYourBoon
    MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564
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    There is difference. Mending is second objective for survivors. This is slow-down for survivors. But if you can not heal for 16 seconds after Legion hit you, you will sit on gen. And most people are not healing against Legion already.

    You are just removing Legion's second objective and making them worse.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531
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    Legion as a killer will just never be fun or engaging imo. His power focuses on stalling the game and actively avoiding chases a lot of the time. Plus mending as a mechanic is just m1 simulator

  • FeelsBadMan
    FeelsBadMan Member Posts: 570
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    Then you have to make mending take priority over any other action (most importantly snapping out of Madness).

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,637
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    That does not do the same thing at all. Even if I can't heal, that means instead of spending time mending I'm just going to do something else, eg. instead of mending for 12 seconds and working on a gen for 8 seconds, I'm gonna just do the gen for 20 seconds.

  • TunnelVision
    TunnelVision Member Posts: 1,375
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    Just because something is unfun does not mean it shouldn't exist. Plenty of people find swf unfun and boring to go against yet nothing has been done to deal with this ever.

  • Hoodied
    Hoodied Member Posts: 13,003
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    Reminder that you can scare a hollow knight player by bringing up Nintendo Direct

  • Sepex
    Sepex Member Posts: 1,408
    edited May 2022
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    For the record the entire game is m1 holding. Most survivors spend on average spend over 100 seconds m1'ing gens alone per match.

    So I see no problem with mending a few times.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,671
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    The big difference: Holding M1 on a Gen actually progresses the Game. Holding M1 while Mending just prolongs it.

  • TheRealOne
    TheRealOne Member Posts: 23
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    People in these forums are noobies : )

  • Starrseed
    Starrseed Member Posts: 1,755
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    Yeah because that's legions power they aren't super lethal but they prolong the game to have more time to kill with that. That's why Billy or bubba don't have a build in slowdown because they are lethal

  • HectorBrando
    HectorBrando Member Posts: 3,167
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    Because you have to M1 a certain amount of time to fix all 5 gens, 80 seconds per gen for 5 gens its 400 seconds total, lets say everyone is equally commited to gens so 100 seconds per Survivor only on gens (not counting regression and Thanatophobia, its usually MUCH more than 100 seconds per person), Mending is not unfun per se, its unfun when you have to mend for 12 seconds an absurd amount of times per game AND still put all those 100 seconds on gens, this is especially dull when you take on account there isnt any real counterplay to Feral Frenzy once they have Killer Instinct unless everyone is REAAAAAAAALLY far away which is almost impossible.

    Current Legion is M1 on top of more M1, they increase exponentially the sheer amount of "Press M1" you have to do, playing against them is more of a chore than anything else.

    I agree Legion dont have much lethality but they make it up with an absurd amount of non-interactive and almost unavoidable stall, same as Forever Freddy and thats what makes them a pain to play against.

  • Sumnox
    Sumnox Member Posts: 605
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    Well, this has basically brought back the old "I'm gonna spend the whole trial holding m1 mending". It -is- boring. Ultimately what these things cause is, people play less. Which makes sense seeing the bleeding of players.

  • MB666
    MB666 Member Posts: 965
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    uhhhh yeah madness i forgot.....gosh DOCTOR!!😅................mmm yeah definetly will need to take priority over snapping.

  • gentacle
    gentacle Member Posts: 260
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    deep wounds is a metaphor for the bleeding of players hehe

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,671
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    Yeah. And their power is just garbage. It should have never left QA. Yet, the released this mess, nerfed this mess and buffed this mess again. And the best thing? Legion is as annoying and as weak as always.

  • Krazzik
    Krazzik Member Posts: 2,376
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    I don't find it that big of a problem to play against, I mean if I wasn't holding m1 to mend I'd just be holding m1 on a gen.

    That said since I know many survivors hate it so much I always bring the addon that makes Mend take a few seconds longer when I play Legion >:3

  • Leatherface1990
    Leatherface1990 Member Posts: 718
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    Get rid of the button lag and lower mend times maybe 4 seconds see how that goes.

  • Tatariu
    Tatariu Member Posts: 3,013
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    I would be in support of changing mending time, or making the mechanic more engaging.

    Simple solution would be to reduce the time it takes to mend (again). Rather than 12s and 8s for self-mend and altruistic mend, the timings could be set to 8s for both. Would take as long to mend as it would to cleanse yourself with a fountain against Plague.

    The downside to this is obvious, less time mending means a nerf to Legion, but also Deathslinger (and any future killer that uses Deep Wound). Although, I would be personally fine with this sort of change, I know many people would be very angry if they changed mending again.

  • HectorBrando
    HectorBrando Member Posts: 3,167
    edited May 2022
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    Agreed, Legion as a failed concept is weird, because sounds awful on paper and it is awful in action too. My guess is they are the product of a "we MUST release content every X months" mindset.

    There is a point where I just wish they just pruned half the roster, half the perks, half the maps, almost all addons and items, sometimes less is more.

  • Starrseed
    Starrseed Member Posts: 1,755
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    I don't think it's garbage if paired with thana it's really nice slowdown and I like to zoom around and stab people plus the vaulting feels nice. It's Okey to don't like to play them no one is going to make you and for the survs well it's either a killer with a strong power that's ending chances quick or a killer that is less lethal but slows down the game flow what els could it be

  • ReverseVelocity
    ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 3,440
    edited May 2022
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    I don't think changing mending time again would be a very good idea at all. That would nerf Legion too much and would also buff BT in the process, which isn't really necessary.