The Twins: A tremendously interesting concept tampered with and terminated by terrible balancing
The Twins are a killer that just makes me sad due to the fact such a interesting concept with a lot of potential is completely squandered both by bugs and confusing balancing
The Twins are BHVR's first attempt at a 2-in-1 killer, Charlotte is your standard 115% killer, while Victor is a much smaller and faster gremlin that can pounce on survivors, if they're injured, they'll go down with no problems, if they're healthy, Victor will latch onto them, injuring them, revealing all survivors nearby with Killer Instinct, and making them Broken and Oblivious while Victor is on their back, Survivors get rid of Victor by holding down M1 and Crushing him, which will let them throw him off, Victor can also be Crushed while idle, after missing a pounce, or after landing a pounce, you can swap between the two at any time by holding CTRL.
And there lies the first problem, If a survivor wants to, they can kidnap Victor for a very, very long time, yeah they're Oblivious and have to listen to his incessant screeching, but there is zero danger in keeping Victor on your shoulders unless Charlotte is close by and can make use of the Obliviousness, if you could get Victor back quickly there wouldn't be a issue, but the time it takes between Latching onto a survivor and being able to recall Victor takes a absolute goddamn eternity for no really good reason.
The second problem is Victor's hitbox, the best way i can describe it is if they took Huntress's hatchet hitbox and doubled the size of it, you'd think that be great news since that must mean easier hits, but no, not only did they double the size, they also quintupled the inconsistency, Victor not only manages to hit every tree, branch, rock, and other bits of terrain, but he also randomly slides off them, sometimes he'll go through a window no problem, sometimes he'll hit the window for no reason, sometimes he'll hit a survivor no problem, other times he'll completely ######### miss, you are not going to consistently hit survivors from any range other close range or point blank, simple as that.
Thirdly, the amount of cooldowns on Blood Bond is ridiculous, ignoring the expected cooldowns of hitting a survivor with Charlotte and the cooldowns from missing and landing a Pounce with Victor, there are SEVEN cooldowns, the cooldown before you can return Victor after landing a pounce on a healthy Survivor, the cooldown before you can do anything after Victor latches onto a survivor or is Crushed, the cooldown for swapping back and forth between Charlotte and Victor, the cooldown before getting to unbind Victor after he comes back, and the cooldown period where you can't swap to Charlotte after landing a Pounce, including the other 3 that makes TEN, and if you really want to stretch it and include the range limit where you can't unbind or swap to Victor within a certain distance of a hooked survivor, ELEVEN cooldowns, E-L-E-V-E-N, there's overkill and there's whatever the hell this is, and half of these cooldowns aren't even needed, they just serve to make Twins clunkier and more frustrating to play, not only that but if the survivor you down with Victor is running Power Struggle, Unbreakable and Flip Flop, you can't pick them up at all, as the cooldowns stop you from being able to pick them up before they manage to get the requirements for Power Struggle.
Finally, there's the playstyle, Twins aren't really my cup of tea for two reasons, one, i don't camp unless survivors give me zero reason not to, nor do i slug unless multiple survivors are close by and i can immediately go back to chasing, and two, Twins are a camping and slugging machine, Victor can and will be taken hostage by competent survivors if you go for healthy people, and you aren't forced out of Victor after slugging someone, and the range limit before getting to swap or unbind from a hooked survivor is so hilariously short that it might as well not exist, attempting to play Twins without camping or slugging at least once will screw you over, and their chase isn't really interesting either, injure, and then either play a 115% with no power, OR play a gremlin who's hitbox is so inconsistent that you either ######### yourself over and lose them, or get a free down, there is definitely some interesting stuff that you can do with them, such as corralling a survivor into a empty location where you set Victor up earlier, but flashy and interesting tricks don't mean anything if the regular chase isn't fun, and Twin's standard chase is snooze-worthy, adding on to that, The Heal Meta ######### The Twins over insanely hard for obvious reasons.
How do we fix all of this? Simple
- Make their addons worth half a damn, undo the nerfs you did to their best addons like Toy Sword, or buff their current addons to not be mostly garbage
- Fix Victors hitbox, make it consistent, that's easily the biggest problem they have, MAKE VICTOR CONSISTENT
- Remove the cooldowns for swapping to Charlotte after a successful pounce, and the cooldown for swapping between Victor and Charlotte, that crap does not need to exist in the slightest
- Make Victor threatening to Healthy Survivors, make him down a survivor after the cooldown to recall him is over, Victor is small but he's not passive, make him threatening and give survivors a reason to get rid of him ASAP
- This is just a personal one for me, but...
Fire the psychopath that came up with this #########, seriously, stop adding challenges that require you to do crap like this, these aren't challenges, they're exercises in frustration
Comments
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Yeah after they got their 8 second fatigue after dowining someone with victor then proceed to nerf stale biscuit for some reason.... I just gave up on playing them seriously. The 8 second fatigue kills my whole style of chase twins which is less boring to go against than slug twins but I guess victor needs a 5 second cooldown when people still don't know how to kick.
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To this day I wonder why the devs nerfed all of their good addons for no real reason
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Yo dawg I heard you like cooldowns so I gave you a cooldown for your cooldown after you recover from your cooldown
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This is yet another reason to nerf pig/twins/trapper
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It amazes me how they give you a killer which actively punishes you for using their power. Using the 'monsters at high mmr' is asinine, since killers at high mmr NEED to be 'absolute monsters.' It's the only way to keep up with the powerhouses high mmr survivors can play at.
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I would actually argue that the “Twins are monsters at high MMR” argument is completely false, seeing as they have next to zero map mobility and can’t down with their power right out of the gate
Dowsey’s skill with them should not equate to them being consistently good at high MMR
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i really have no idea why recalling victor has a timer
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My only grip with twins is how wonky aiming with Victor is. It appears I hit more survivors that I was going to miss, and miss all the survivors that I appear to had hit.
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The reason it exists is so you can't just latch onto someone with Victor, recall him immediately and then down them, since that would be a bit unfair
why it's so long though is beyond me
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yeah, fair
i think they should have it as a distance thing along with the timer.that way, a good survivor cant just keep you and victor hostage. if theyre farther than the twins TR + half, or have victor for longer than 7 seconds, you can recall victor
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i still think making Victor down someone if they don't crush him would be better, but I'd be fine with this compromise
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1.Victors hit box is ridiculous, and it favors the Twins players far more than hinders. It is like huntress, you need to know what have strange hitboxes and adjust. If you’re hitting the environment it’s more than likely on you. The hit box on Victor makes him almost unjukeable if you’re halfway decent at killer.
2 If a survivor holds Victor hostage they are no longer able to progress the game, making them no threat to the killer. That means if you find a chase as Charlotte you have two survivors not on gens, so it’s a win for you. If someone holds Victor hostage it’s only 30 seconds, and again they aren’t progressing the game, and give you info if they go near another survivor. I have no idea why the narrative of holding Victor hostage is good for survivors stayed, it heavily favors Charlotte since recalling Victor was made a thing.
3 Twins add ons are fine, Toy sword lost .05 seconds from its cool down, .05, one more time to drive the point home, .05 seconds. Toy sword had the rat liver treatment of an overrated add on that somehow people began to believe was the best. Stew is a crazy good and the scarf is still strong. You can legit make Victor move at 6.9 m/s which is bonkers. Her iri add ons are decent enough now and the Stale biscuit is good for those learning how to use Victor.
4 Just because you don’t like how Twins is played doesn’t mean they need to be changed. Don’t like them, don’t play them, simple.
Finally I will say that Twins have too many cool downs and that makes them feel clunky, so it could be improved. Maybe slow how fast Victor moves but dramatically reduce the time to switch between Charlotte and Victor.
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Point 4 I have no disagreements with, however
1.Victor’s hitbox, regardless of who it favours, is still fundamentally inconsistent, and inconsistent hitboxes should not be a thing
2.If a survivor takes Victor hostage for the full 30 seconds and does nothing but hide somewhere away from their team, that is still just under half a gen’s worth of time where the Twins are completely powerless, and while you’re chasing one person as a 115% killer with zero ways of shortening the chase, the other two are working on gens, and if you leave that survivor then you’re back to square one, but without Victor and therefore no way to track survivors or get quicker downs, 30 seconds may not sound like a long time, but in DBD it might as well be a eternity
3.If a grand total of 4 maybe 5 addons out of 18 addons are anything resembling useful, that does not indicate that their addons are “fine”, that indicates that their addons could use a buff to be actually worth something
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I do wonder where the 'monsters at high mmr' stems from. Since Twins is so rare, even from the devs own pick rate, it's no wonder survivors may have trouble at that level. Little to no practice. That doesn't mean Twins are 'monsters,' just that they're so little used that practice is in short supply.
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#1 problem: It's true that survivors can take victor hostage, but at the same time you usually want to injure them with charlotte. some situations using victor is fine, it's not always an issue and not always taking victor hostage is a good idea.
#2: to be fair, all hitboxes are "incosistent" if you see it in that way. Victor is way more punished since the downside of missing a pounce is way higher than, for example, a Huntress hatchet. If you miss as huntress you can rethrow it immediately , as twins they have the chance to kick victor and that means losing pressure. Aiming up while charging your pounce is also important, that can make a difference and successfully hitting a survivor instead of the window/pallet. It's very frustrating to deal with hitboxes, takes a lot of effort to learn them, but with time these issues won't be as bad.
#3: Yeah, cooldowns are pretty ridiculous.
#4: It's not twins being a "camping" and "slugging" machine, they're good at them, but the issue comes to the cooldowns you mentioned before, it takes SO long to do anything and those strats are often the only viable alternatives.
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What everyone who has played DBD for less than six months thinks:
Mainly for the reasons listed above
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- Fair enough. I suppose I'm just used to the janky hitboxes in the game that it doesn't bother me for Victor. Billy and Bubba can have the same issues where you hit ghost hit boxes because some piece of trash was on the floor. I don't find Victor to have the same issues, at least not to that degree.
- I am very aware of how long 30 seconds is, and if someone is doing nothing for their team for that long it's a huge advantage for Charlotte. It's like if someone heals through sloppy with self care, and people scream how dumb those players are. A survivor not progressing the game for that long is a big deal. If you can't get hits as a regular M1 killer, or at least get some resources gone from the map, you just misplayed. Having a power that takes a survivor out of the game for 30 seconds if they chose that is far more in the killer's favor. If you get a down you can essentially take 3 people off of gens or someone dies.
- Those were just the add ons off the top of my head. Nurse is in the same boat, very strong add ons with a bunch of niche as well. Just because there isn't variety does not mean Twins have bad add ons. Not every killer needs to be Blight with 8 ridiculous add ons and a bunch of good ones on top. It's just how BHVR makes add ons anymore, 3-5 really strong, a few meh and a bunch of niche stuff you'll probably never use.
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If the devs want twins players to not slug as much give Victor some way to hook survivors or the ability for Victor to call Charlotte to him.
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