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Making all the meta perks boring Isn't gonna be fun for anyone!

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Comments

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,861
  • zombitehdeath
    zombitehdeath Member Posts: 587

    is there any examples on which perks that will be buffed.

    also will there be reworks aswell?

  • Youko
    Youko Member Posts: 187

    You hit on one of the two biggest issues here. If something about the core mechanics doesn't change, the usefulness of those perks doesn't change, and the usefulness of other perks doesn't change.

    The second point is that as long as the Killer is an RNG element, certain perks will never be useful. If you bring in an aura blocking perk and the killer has no aura reading, wasted slot. In contrast, If you bring in Lightborn and nobody brings flashbangs or flashlights, wasted slot.

    This is something that has been called out years ago. Yes, you could bring in all these non-meta perks, but you could also end up with a loadout that is completely useless by not being applicable. And buffing those perks may not change that.

    Meta perks exist because they are applicable to core mechanics that occur in every single match.

    Non-meta perks are such because there is a risk they may not be applicable or so situational they don't outweigh the benefit of bringing in something else that affect something guaranteed to happen.

    In that respect, I think it's going to be very difficult to try and achieve what they are aiming for here. Instead, as a lot of people have said here on the forums, certain meta perks may need to be folded into the base kit of survivors and then killer gameplay will have to balanced around this change, perhaps by adding a secondary objective for survivors.

  • Norhc
    Norhc Member Posts: 575

    There will always be a meta. Nerfing current strong but balanced perks like Pain Resonance and Corrupt is not the answer.

  • Hoodied
    Hoodied Member Posts: 13,020

    *taps mic*

    5-6 perks for both sides being meta isn’t good, thats called having terrible balance and is actually extremely unhealthy for a game, for an assymetrical with over 200 perks the meta needs to atleast consist of enough perks to make up 8 different loadouts that don’t consist of the same perks, 4-5 perks that are meta makes a game advertised around not having repeating matches….repeating matches

    Absolutely nobody said that they were removing a meta, they are just changing the current meta to not be the same thing thats been in the game since year 2, and the current meta literally does not allow other meta perks to be made as they’ll actually need to be OP, this is shown through Circle of Healing, the current meta in dbd is literally just 5-6 perks that are, as I have seen people describe, necessary to win with, and its not even due to killers, its due to killers perks causing this, no joke both sides shouldn’t feel forced to use certain perks that’ll make the game tolerable, making several perks on par with each other without making them on the brink of being OP is the way to go

  • keepingitril
    keepingitril Member Posts: 94

    Hi @Peanits,

    Wasn't sure which thread to put this in but really hope you get to see this - I think it's pretty important.

    Very pleased to hear about a large perks rework. A perk randomiser or part randomiser would be interesting but that's not what this post is about.

    I wanted to make two suggestions that I believe are very timely.


    Perks should not give Bloodpoints

    From a design and consistency perspective, I think the bloodpoint mechanic in perks is not a good one and the entire thing should go.

    A perk should be a game feature that alters play in a multiple small but interesting ways - not change the scoring of that play. It is on only 7 perks right now and only a few of those are used sometimes or less, one regularly, one semi regularly and mostly for this feature. Choosing perks because you can farm bloodpoints is not a good rationale for a thing to exist.

    I would possibly like to see addons get the same treatment but don't feel this is as pressing a need and maybe could be convinced either way.

    If you do or don't wish to give additional bloodpoints, there are numerous other game elements that this can be handled under.


    Seperate Perks from Totems

    This is a little more complicated but I believe has some merit.

    Change hex perks to regular perks and have a brand new Entity "Perk-esque" gameplay feature.

    I understand this is a somewhat significant change but I genuinely believe you can get equivalent solid perks from all the current hex offerings and make them far more used.

    It will also end conversation about the permanency of a totem perk. If I bring Hex: Ruin into a game and it gets taken out quickly, that's not such good game design - I shouldn't lose my ability because the other team can delete it. If I bring reformulated Ruin perk into the game and it does or doesn't have conditions that do or don't get activated, that's fine.

    I like the concept of totems offering gameplay variables but believe there could be a better, more consistent, reliable way than by a perk. I've expanded this concept in my post above.

    Maybe it requires two releases to execute - the first where you change the hex perks to regular ones and totems do "nothing". The following release, you get your new gameplay feature.

    Thanks for your consideration.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    Some of the meta things are broken. Blight Nurse and 3-4 man SWF groups are broken. DH is broken.

    Pretty much everything else in the 'meta' category is "ok".


    "We're not looking to make things boring. We're looking to shake things up and make the old meta not such an obvious choice. In its place, we'll be buffing a bunch of other perks to give you a heaps of new options to pick from."


    Looking at the available options you have perks like Pebble that do basically nothing and Deliverance on the same character. The obvious solution is to make all the perks as worthless as pebble, red herring, and many others.


    Then it doesn't matter what perks anyone takes because nothing has any real effect. The second you do that and you don't change the core game mechanics there is no point in playing killer.


    Why? Because the killer objective takes about twice as long as the survivor objective.

  • Valik
    Valik Member Posts: 1,274

    I have to profoundly but respectfully disagree with the direction the developers have stated.

    While I can very much understand the desire to make needed changes to the top 5 perks to both the Survivor and Killer rolls, knocking the meta perks around is not a very wise choice.

    All perks should be A tier perks, and S tier can easily be toned down. However, I fear that Behavior - in all of their zeal - may either push the meta perks into the B tier and remove strong perks from play... or accidently repeat the blunders of Boil Over and Circle Of Healing from the past and create an even less as stable meta than we already have.


    The tragic truth is that the meta is not only what it is because S tier perks reign supreme - the major contributing factor to the meta is a clear and fundamental lack of competition.


    If the developers want to see users enjoy a variety of new perk choices, they need not seek to push the top of the perk base down - but would find better success if they simply turned a bunch of garbage C and D tier perks into A tier that can begin to compete with the meta and draw users into new exciting builds.


    The worst thing is, regardless of how they change the effectiveness or general use of a perk - they will still be meta, because alternatives will become no more or less attractive.

    But those dead perks will still languish away in despair - which means the meta will remain as stagnant as before.


    It is a scary time indeed, because if they take good perks like Dead Hard away from survivors but offer no buff to perks like Buckle Up

    if they shift Pop Goes The Weasel away from its strong S tier position but don't elevate an F tier perk like Furtive Chase, then the meta will not change.


    I hope that the game will shift towards a healthy decision, I pray that the developers make the right decisions - but I firmly disagree with the overall direction they have chosen to proceed.

  • Freddy96
    Freddy96 Member Posts: 767

    like what lose 100 bloodpoints? you sure you wanna go down this road? you've proven in the past that you can make decisions that can led to the loss of tons of players and as much as not seeing every perk in ever game would be cool there's a reason why the meta exists to begin with. removing ds might work fine when you're versing a wraith with 200 hrs but its a different story when against a nurse even more since you bugged both range addons.

    Hope that you know what you're doing cause seeing another "we're sorry we did this here's 100k bloodpoints" will feel a lame way out

  • CashelP14
    CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,564

    During the stream I heard that these changes will be coming in the fall.

    This means you must have something ready that you think will fix the problems these perks are trying to fix. Just want to know am I right with this?

  • Sumnox
    Sumnox Member Posts: 605

    Could you hint at how this could be done? Not saying to tell me exactly what you're gonna do but is it going to be, extending the time you struggle on hook to buy others more time, something impacting the match directly, or something more passive like "You lose pips or points if you camp":

  • Killmaster
    Killmaster Member Posts: 429
    edited May 2022

    I would rather everything be overpowered than just meh to bring. Giving distortion unlimited tokens would destroy any killer meta around BBQ "shaking things up" as would cranking up other similarly annoying perks on the killer side that require arbitrary activation requirements. Another example would be a perk like blast mine nullifying the killer's ability to use pop goes the weasel as would a perk like repressed alliance being used on a gen that is locked by Corrupt Intervention releasing it. If the meta shifts too far a perk to hard counter it will become normal until players shake things up because they know using it will cause survivors or killers to bring it's counter. Same as the recent anti-boon perk that will likely kill the Circle of Healing meta until things cool down and players feel confident that every killer isn't going to be bringing it.

  • Hannacia
    Hannacia Member Posts: 1,323
    edited May 2022

    Just throwing it out there.. If you look at the most used perks from killers you see what the issue is in the game? Gens go too fast. so as much as im into this meta perk shift since honest its boring, im little worried since gen speeds havent been discussed and they even give survivors more perk ( the new Haddie perk) to make gens faster. Hopefully you fix prove thyself too.

    Anyways im looking forward to it. Seeing same perks and using same perks all the time is getting boring.

  • Killing_Time
    Killing_Time Member Posts: 894

    Will gen speed be addressed? The killer meta LITERALLY revolves around gen speed and the crazy perk grind.

  • dragobv
    dragobv Member Posts: 304

    Inb4 dark sense meta in 2022 LMAO

  • Hoodied
    Hoodied Member Posts: 13,020

    Idk i'm not a developer at BHVR, also its not gens speeds 80 seconds on a gen already feels long enough, also most of the survivors meta perks are good at stalling the killer, which makes gens feel like they fly by in a chase from what I noticed, which is why Dead Hard is such a huge problem as Dead Hard can massively extend loops when used for distance, which is why I hope that the huge perk rework changes the band-aid perks and makes most of them support perks, where instead of them being strong on their own they are all strong together, because a single perk should never carry you through a game and allowing people to find or make funny builds or just competitively viable builds

  • cburton311
    cburton311 Member Posts: 410

    I dunno about that...I think it depends on the way the perks are buffed. Boil Over is kind of a broken mechanic is resistant to buffs that matter. If a survivor learns where on the map he is safe because boil over prevents hooking, the perk will always be broken.

    I think more about the lucky break type perks, which offer a cool advantage but its duration is so short you basically get to use it once per match. This could be buffed to the point of usefulness. There are a ton of perks like this where the advantage is so tiny currently that it cannot compete with a perk that literally saves a down. Really, who cares about leadership when you could take borrowed time, dead hard, or decisive strike.

    Perks need to have a meaningful advantage and not be janky to trigger and survivors would use them. The meta perks aren't even all that fun to use except dead hard. Dead hard is awesome fun, with the cool plays that can be made. I feel forced to use the meta perks or my matches end on my first hook. If killers couldn't camp or tunnel, I'd never choose borrowed time or decisive for my build....but they do so I have to.

  • DangerScouse
    DangerScouse Member Posts: 989

    There will *always* be a meta. All this will do, is make a new one.

  • Viskod
    Viskod Member Posts: 854

    Meta's are self imposed on the community because people tend to follow the path of least resistance. Largely due to people not being able to think for their selves or try new things or just being lazy.

    You don't need Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, Unbreakable, or Iron Will to be a good survivor and escape trials regularly. They have their uses in specific situations but its due to so many people intransigently refusing to experiment with other builds or try new things that keeps this "meta" a thing, not necessity.

    If you like those perks and that's your build and you don't want to use anything else then that's fine, but the problem is with the people who mistakenly think they are obligated to use those perks. That they don't have any choice but to use those perks because anything else is not viable, and that is hilariously untrue.

    Like a lot of killers, I hate Dead Hard. But I don't hate it because it robs me of hits, I hate it because so many people are so ######### obsessed with it. I hate it because I see so many people bring it, but then use it in dumb ways that give them no value for it. But they're taking it because they're told its the "best".

    Well, it's only good if you know when and how to use it, and most people don't. Hell most of the time you can trick Survivors into using it before you actually swing at them, or they'll use it just to gain a tiny amount of distance in a dead zone just because they have it and that gives them like a literal second of extra time in a chase and that's all.

    They would be so much better off bringing any one of a number of other perks instead of Dead Hard, because they aren't getting any value from it. But because of the misguided group think around Dead Hard too many people bring it "just because" even though they aren't actually getting any benefit from it.

    Killer Meta's are actually a bit more necessary than not because of how fast generators can be done. I don't bring a lot of slow down perks though. I've been playing a lot of Nemesis lately and I go with BBQ, Bamboozle, Lethal Pursuer, and then switch out the last one depending on what I feel like. Sometimes Nurses' Calling, sometimes Save the Best for Last. Sometimes ######### Lightborne if I'm just not in the mood.

    Most matches I win, I win at 1 to 0 generators left unless I just end up with some potato survivors or I have some hilarious Zombie RNG because that's just how generator speeds go.

  • Vetrathene
    Vetrathene Member Posts: 1,425

    I’m just worried what they are going to do to fix gen rushing if they are needing the slowdown meta perks to make it so that gens aren’t popping instantly. I’m not saying camping isn’t a problem, but it has a counter at least…genrushing. Genrushing has no counter besides slowdown perks.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333

    The new perk does gen repairing go slower. You need to repair 4 gens alone without being injured to save few seconds

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095

    Killers that try to play without slowdown perks to prepare for the upcoming change are gonna have a bad time.

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    Spoke like a true Killer-Main... Survivor perks aren't necessary, Killer perks are....

    I'd love to see you play survivor and see how unnecessary DS and BT are with the current Tunnel-off-hook-till-your-dead and Face-Camp killer meta.

    I guess if you don't even want to even play the game when a killer decides to Tunnel-off-hook-till-dead and Face-Camp you, then DS and BT aren't necessary.

  • TotemSeeker91
    TotemSeeker91 Member Posts: 2,358

    Yeah, cause survivors NEVER complain about how strong killer perks are

  • RussellMan
    RussellMan Member Posts: 23

    But Perks like PGTW and Ruin are what keep the matches from going too fast, that's why they're meta. How are killers going to prevent gen rushing if these perks are nerfed too much?

    'Applying pressure to survivors' doesn't work well because a killer can't be in two places at once.

  • Viskod
    Viskod Member Posts: 854
    edited May 2022

    I play survivor in the evenings with my boyfriend and a friend of ours rather often.

    I don't use Dead Hard, Decisive Strike or Unbreakable.

    I do use Borrowed Time, because as I've said in numerous threads here, Borrowed Time should be a baseline mechanic.

    I also use Iron Will, and We're Going to Live Forever, for the boodpoints, and my last perk is whatever. Sometimes its something I need for a challenge, sometimes its something just for convenience or fun.

    Hell, sometimes its Pharmacy, because I like being able to bring a medkit, and then quickly find another medkit.

    And yeah, sometimes people tunnel. Sometimes people camp. If they camp, we just ignore them, finish the gens and leave and don't give them the satisfaction of trying to save in their face.

  • Haddix
    Haddix Member Posts: 1,048

    With that being said, are you also recognizing some of the reasons why Killer game-delay-related perks are used by so many killers?

    And to be clear, even if you, BHVR, technically do not find them to be necessary for a balanced game, there are still quite obviously a very large amount of killer players that FEEL a l o t more comfortable playing the game with those perks.

    I don't think it would go over well if you addressed tunneling and camping (which would be great) and touched DS + BT but did absolutely no changes relating to the uncomfortable pacing of matches when game-delay-related perks are not in use, but still proceeded to touch pop, ruin, pain resonance, etc.

    I just hope these changes are fair and do not look at meta perks at face value. There are reasons why both survivor and killer perks are run, and base game compensation in the form of balance changes WILL be expected by this community, and there will be uproar if there isn't anything significant.

  • Killing_Time
    Killing_Time Member Posts: 894

    Dude, survivors can stomp you with no perks. Corrupt, POP, etc are a NECESSITY at high matchmaking. Even still, without Blight or Nurse you're dusted.

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    Of course survivors complain about killer perks. However, killers have had meta changing perks almost every killer release and even though survivors complain about them, nothing gets changed about them.

    Survivors have not had any meta changing perks for 4 years, except for CoH and Boil Over, both of which have been nerfed over and over again because Killers have complained about the extensively.

    The developers listen and respond to killer complaints but don't to survivor complaints. Least I point you to Face-Camping and Tunneling-off-hook-till-dead, that has been in the game since the start.

  • TotemSeeker91
    TotemSeeker91 Member Posts: 2,358

    Boil over and COH got nerfed because the devs don't know how to balance perks, can you tell me that 100% healing bonus was a good idea? Or that added 100% wiggle bonus and that rediculous height progression (can't remember the proper number atm) was a good idea? Of course the perks got a nerf

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    So, why hasn't survivors had a meta perk in 4 years and killers get them every killer release? What is causing that problem.

  • TotemSeeker91
    TotemSeeker91 Member Posts: 2,358

    Bruh, the devs and their balancing, also they have to consider 4 people can run the same thing rather then just 1 person

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    So it's perfectly ok one side doesn't get anything and the other side gets something new every killer release? Do you see why that's a problem?

  • TotemSeeker91
    TotemSeeker91 Member Posts: 2,358

    I don't think you see where I'm coming from, it's harder to give survivors meta perks because if they're not careful, 4 people will make it abusable and annoying *cough DH cough* jeez

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    I know it's harder giving survivor meta perks. What I'm saying is that survivors haven't had a meta perk in 4 years. That's an issue. You have to at least attempt to give survivor meta perks so that the game doesn't stagnant.

    There's a massive amount of effort to give content to killers but no effort to give content to survivors.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,789

    This is why BHVR is reworking the best survivor and killer meta perks, and promising to address why those perks are meta.

  • Haddix
    Haddix Member Posts: 1,048
    edited May 2022

    And that's pretty much what I'm saying. I'm making the point that killers find it necessary to use game delay perks, and that game delay SHOULD NOT BE NERFED without base game adjustments that make it easier for killers to apply pressure WITHOUT those game delay perks. I don't know why you think I'm making a point against what you're saying, my friend. What I'm asking is favoring your argument.

  • TruEternity
    TruEternity Member Posts: 320

    The thing about shaking up the meta is there are deep rooted base game design issues. These include but are not limited to:

    •Map imbalance

    •Efficient strategies helped by meta perks (hence why those perks are meta)

    •Poor matchmaking


    Just saying nerf dead hard is great and all but it doesn’t take into consideration macro play, just micro. It worries me with BHVR’s recent track record on perk changes being entirely misguide and missing the point.

  • blue4zion
    blue4zion Member Posts: 2,773
    edited May 2022

    Ahh yee using the same 8 perks outta all of the ones we have is soo much fun and the only good thing!

    It might be fun for you, but its NOT a good thing that 90% of the perks they design go unused.

  • Jivetalkin13
    Jivetalkin13 Member Posts: 747

    Ideally after the prestige rework, BBQ and WGLF will become less necessary.