LGBTQ+ Representation in Horror and DBD
One of the arguments I saw when BHVR announced that David was gay (As well as the Pride charms) is this:
"This is a horror game. Why does their sexuality matter?"
Or
"This is a horror game. Why are there rainbows everywhere?"
And it always makes me think...dang, this person is oblivious to the horror genre haha. LGBT+ rep has been ingrained in the horror genre for as long as I can personally remember. Ignoring subtext or potential "Well, maybe it doesn't mean that-" situations, we could always look at the more blatant examples in both classic and modern horror media.
Chucky is one of the biggest horror franchises to date. With both a gender fluid character (Glen / Glenda from Seed of Chucky 2004) and gay + bisexual characters. (Jake and Devon as well as Tiffany in the 2021 TV series It's so good please watch it season 2 is coming this year.)
Freaky, The Fear Street Trilogy, Jennifer's Body, Hellbent (A very fruity slasher from 2004), Hellraiser, The Haunting of Hill House & Bly Manor, Raw, Thelma, The Wild Boys, Knife + Heart, BIT
And we all know Frank-N-Furter from Rocky Horror Picture Show.
This isn't even close to ALL of the examples of LGBT+ representation in the horror genre. You've got Scream, A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 (I left this one out of my OG list because it's not blatantly said, however I think most people can watch this movie and read into the subtext lol.)
I hope this doesn't come across as a bait post. I wanted to genuinely explain why having openly LGBT+ characters in DBD DOES fit and is needed, as well as recommend some great, gay, horror movies and shows. I want to see more LGBT+ rep in DBD, and hope BHVR don't just come out once a year (hehe, come out.) and say a different character is this or that.
I've said it before in this forum, but I'll say it again: Give us an openly gay, DRAG QUEEN survivor! With cosmetic pieces in and out of drag! How many drag queens do you all see on Twitch playing DBD? I SEE LOTS. AND they're fog whisperers! They're all gorgeous and so kind and sweet! Contact them and take inspiration from them! Let them help you curate a character that is genuine and doesn't seem like a last second hand wave decision. (Don't get me wrong though, I love David, and I love him being gay. I'm sure the devs have plenty of tome entries and lore planned to flesh David's character out and make it feel more natural. But, it was a very sudden announcement with no build up or anything.)
There are 30 survivors in DBD. (31 counting Haddie.) and thousands of DBD players around the world. All of different races, genders, sexualities, lifestyles. So I think it would be great to have as many people feel represented as possible. It's more important than people think. I fully believe BHVR is genuine with their love and support of the LGBT+ community. I don't think they're in it for the money like a lot of companies. (I mean, David is literally a free character. If they wanted to make money they could've chosen a paid character.)
Announcing David's sexuality was actually a huge step. But I hope there's more in the future!
Comments
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I think it’s a good thing as well
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I only take issue when these kinds of things are ham-fisted into media, if Behavior didn't make a giant announcement about David's sexuality and just kinda put it in there for people to find out I wouldn't mind, gay people exist, no need to praise to discourage them.
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I really prefer they not make a big deal about it to be honest. I like representation but these companies patting themselves on the back for doing a good deed and get social cred always rubs me the wrong way. Like I enjoy well made LGBT characters, but I'm a lesbian and not really exceptional for it.
I just exist as I am and it's not a big deal, I don't want it to be a big deal to anyone. I just want to feel like a normal person, like I blend seamlessly together with every other normal person. I get why companies do make a big deal though, they want to make sure they get a good return on investment by capitalizing on it, but I won't really pay it any particular mind if I can help it.
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Agreed! That's why when they make future LGBT+ survivors (dragqueendragqueendragqueen) they don't need to make a big deal about it or make a long post about it like they did with David. "We're announcing our first openly gay drag survivor!" Just let the lore of the character and the cosmetics speak for themselves. Or mention a significant other in their lore like they do with Felix.
Another thing I'd like to see is a non-binary survivor. That doesn't need to be made a big deal at all, but it'd be awesome to have.
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While I agree to a certain degree, I don't blame BHVR for announcing it since it was something people have been requesting from them for years. Getting it out there to the people who had been asking was likely the big idea behind announcing it.
Although I do think it would've been cool to wait until after the lore was out, since it would've had a surprise factor to it but it's not super important at the end of the day
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The devs don’t necessarily NEED to make a drag queen survivor by default. The devs need to make a gay male survivor whose LORE is drag, and identifies as “nonbinary”. In the sense the character has regular clothes along with drag sets that can possibly be mixed/matched.
The potential of drag in a video game is the magic of versatility that drags naturally have. They typically dress/live/work as an average person during the day. They only really dress in those extravagant ways during social gatherings with other queens. With some gay men you wouldn’t even know they were a queen unless he told you, or was already in that part of their social circle. You’d be surprised who was actually a queen where I live.
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Yes! That's exactly what I was thinking!
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I don't think there's a very big market for an openly gay drag queen survivor in DBD. From what I understand, all of the lgbt representation DBD has done has been implemented in the game at no charge. I suppose they could offer the survivor for free but I don't think they've ever done that before right? My opinion is that this would not appeal to enough people from a marketing perspective to be worth it, but then again I can't recall the last time I had a match where I didn't see a pride charm somewhere so maybe I'm wrong.
If you're concerned about representation then I think at this point anyone who plays DBD will get the message loud and clear that the lgbt community is represented in the game. I don't think that just because there are not more lgbt characters that the game lacks in representation of it. Does half the roster need to be lgbt for there to be enough representation in the game? You have to remember that DBD isn't made just for the lgbt community. This game appeals to a diverse audience for simply being horror themed which is a popular genre in and of itself. That is where the focus should be in my opinion. The new Dredge killer for example looks freaking scary and it goes perfectly in line with DBD's theme. No sexuality or identity aspects linked to it (that I know of at least). Its just pure horror for a horror themed game.
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The first English LGBT horror story (that I'm aware of, anyway - there may have been one before it) was written in 1872, a quarter centory before Dracula.
It's been one of my favorites since I was a kid. It's a little over a hundred pages, and I highly recommend: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10007
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They've released free survivors before. Feng, Bill, and Nea are 3 that come to mind and I think David was paid for but I believe he's free now. And you'd be surprised how big the market is for openly gay characters ESPECIALLY characters who have drag cosmetics (Hell, I've seen so many people say they should've made a NEW openly gay character instead of just making David gay. Ppl want it!) Hell, the number of new David players I've seen (rocking Pride charms as well) since after they announced he was gay has skyrocketed. Just played a game as killer trying to get some BP and two of the survivors had the Pride charm. I mean, even I've started playing him a bit more after that. Not to mention the players it'd BRING to the community.
There's literally a horror themed drag show called Dragula. I mean, imagine the Halloween themed fits we could get in DBD. Elvira themed look? I mean I'd pay for that in a heartbeat.
Yes!!! I need to read it ASAP.
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I thought David was one of the original survivors. The game started with just 4 right? I can never remember who they are. I started playing in 2020 so I wasn't sure if there had in fact been survivors offered for free before. I know in the time I've played there hasn't been. You're right in that there certainly is a number of people this would appeal to. If its offered for free then it wouldn't surprise me this would be a thing at some point. However if its marketed then there would be a profit incentive for the design and I just don't think it would sell as well as for example a purely horror themed chapter or even a licensed one. I remember when the RE chapter went live. Everyone loved it! There was so much excitement and my friends in discord were begging me to stop talking about it all the time. 🤣
Also I think an Elvira skin would be great for DBD! 😍
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What LGBT rep is in JF Body?
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Okay. My take, as the grumpy old resident forum centrist.
Yes, horror has always been a refuge for a variety of societal outcasts, and deals with themes of alienation and misunderstanding, which would certainly make it attractive to the LGBT crowd. Also us nerds.
I'm also fine with you having representation, if it really matters that much to you.
However...
At the end of the day, if you hyperfocus on one identity criteria, you ensure that that criteria will never be considered normal, let alone 'equal' - because by loudly drawing attention to it, you're setting yourselves apart. I think people were starting to figure this out in the 90s and early 2000s, but we've slid backwards as a species.
Regarding a 'drag queen' survivor, this stuff is a minefield - not from the people who don't care, but from the various, constantly schism-tastic activist groups that could easily take offense at any attempt, no matter how well considered, because it doesn't fit their precise criteria for 'acceptable representation'.
Just look at what happened in MHA, or for a Dead by Daylight example, the wokescolding threads about the Artist patch, and how it's not acceptable to have a POC survivor have his background. Or, hell, the threads about David being 'queer erasure' because he 'didn't look gay enough'.
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Jennifer says she goes both ways in the movie lol.
I just want to be able to play as a character that I can see myself in bro.
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They've released free survivors before. Feng, Bill, and Nea are 3 that come to mind and I think David was paid for but I believe he's free now.
Feng is definitely not free. She was released in the Spark of Madness Chapter alongside the Doctor. If you want to get technical, both the Spark of Madness and Of Flesh and Mud Chapters are included by default into the console editions of the game, although the price of the game is accordingly higher to compensate.
David (and by extension the Huntress) on the other hand was indeed free, and always has been.
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Yeah they were free on console. I also have the game on Game Pass so I didn't know if they were free for everyone or nah. But still, characters that were released for free. So it's not unheard of.
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I'm stepping in some deep water because apparently my opinion on this stuff is stupid but I'm sorry... just play the game, I'm sorry if it comes off rude, but like... the only thing I personally care about is like the perks and stuff that'll help me win, personally, I've never even noticed half of those genres having some sort of LGBTQ because I just...watch the show or play the game, I'll probably be banned now in the morning for stating my thoughts but... there they are
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And therein lies the problem. It'll never be enough no matter how hard they try. "The pride charms aren't enough. David isn't enough. More representation always!" That is what it always sounds like to me when I see reaction to everything done in the name of representation. What is DBD going to look like 5 years from now? 10 years from now? Will it even be around still in the future... Time will tell.
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No? I'm sorry if I come off rude, but some people like to be able to see themselves in the game they spend their time and money on. In a game with 30+ diverse characters with extensive lore that's constantly being added to with each tome, why should we not be able to ask for more? I mean, I spend money on it just like everyone else lol. I get you don't understand that, and I don't expect a lot of people to get it either.
Don't get me wrong I'm glad you don't care about the lore and focus on the gameplay and perks. That's totally fine! But I mean, I clearly care about more than just that. And other people do as well.
I mean, I'm not gonna report you for having your own take. You shouldn't get banned for preferring gameplay to lore. But you should at least try to see it from another perspective. Like, I can see it from yours and I respect it. It's just not for me. I care about the gameplay and the perks. I've made many threads in this forum discussing those things.
But I also care about the community. And want to see other members of my community be represented and feel seen, respected, and cared for. Of course you can see that with the love BHVR has given us already. Both in-game and out. But like someone had said earlier, "Horror is a refuge for societal outcasts." So you can't be surprised when people want that replicated in this game. It's like people who find comfort playing chess or card games. Despite how toxic and annoying DBD and the community can be, a lot of people find comfort in the fog and in the community. And a lot of people do read through all of the lore and are invested in it. Yes, I'd love to have a survivor that physically looks like me. (Having to choose between Adam or Jeff is impossible. We need a mixed tall boi with a belly BHVR) But having a survivor that's gone through similar experiences as myself and others is a huge factor when it comes to choosing a main for some people.
Something that means nothing to you (Genres having LGBTQ) actually means a lot to other ppl and a lot to myself.
Oof...yeah this one isn't it either. I've said in my OP that I was happy with David being gay and I love the charms...but yeah, there could always be more.
Y'all this thread was not supposed to rile up negativity stop it. Be calm.
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You haven't come off as rude at all. 🙂 You spoke your mind about something thats important to you and thats great! Subjects like this will always attract diverse and dissenting opinions. I think everyone so far has been respectful in giving their view and opinion on it too.
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Honestly? If the LGBTQ+ community is happy about David being gay, then i´m happy for them.
I´ve been maining Jane + David for a very long time and will continue to do so. Because it doesn´t affect me in the slightest.
Getting more skins is always a great thing. So getting a Drag Queen outfit for David would probably sell (especially if its a mixable outfit and not this legenday stuff). If the representation makes people feel more comfortable with the game. Then i´m all in for it.
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Okay WOAH. Now this is a bad take...can't even respectfully disagree on this. This is just not good.
You're acting as if the community is FORCING the developers to include these things. Like, have you stopped to think that maybe the people creating these games, movies, shows, etc...WANT to include characters of other races, backgrounds, sexual identities...?
Getting whiplash from that other bad take to this colossal W take omg. YES. David in drag would be...gold. I can see him being dolled up, but his outfit being tattered and messed up cuz you know he'd end up fighting another queen lmao. His wig snatched. Love that idea!
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Of course that could be so, and I was not talking about or targeting the community or the devs but the world we live in these days. Everyone have the right to say what they want or not want to be included in the game, I hope.
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Races? Yes. Backgrounds? Yes. Sexual identities? This is something I only recently feel like they want to include in the game, as I have not seen it up until now. I don't think its unreasonable for someone to feel like its happening due to pressure from a part of the community, but I also think its not unreasonable to assume the devs may also want to include it now because they want it. These are just people's opinions on the matter and people will feel differently as to why they think its happening now as opposed to early on in DBD's history.
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Why would there have to be pressure...?
In a Tweet on May 27th of last year they said "Last year, we acknowledged and shared in our players' desire to include LGBTQIA2+ content in-game." In the blog post attached it says:
"Diversity is something that means a lot to us here at Dead by Daylight. Both in terms of our team, and our incredibly supportive fans who identify as members of the LGBTQIA2+ community. This time of year is a chance for us to double down on celebrating our differences, the things that make us all unique, and to send the same dedication, support and love you’ve shown us right back your way.""Bringing inclusivity and representation to life in a meaningful way within Dead by Daylight’s storytelling continues to be a focus for us – and one that’s progressing. While we know many of you are eagerly anticipating this content (as are we!) it’s vital to us that we not only deliver it – but more importantly, do it justice.Our goal is to take the necessary time to ensure we get this right, creating the kinds of stories and characters devoid of negative tropes that our community deserves, versus simply checking a box. To help us achieve this, we’re proud to announce our collaboration with external partners Brian Kunde and Katie Kaitchuck at GaymerX who are supporting us with best practices for integrating LGBTQIA2+ themes into established games. This will continue with specific consultations around in-game content and how we can approach these stories without falling into harmful representation.We’re looking forward to the end result, and we thank our players for their patience as the pieces continue to come together. In the meantime, we’ve got some great things on deck for the month of June that we hope you’ll join us for!"This doesn't read as a company being coersed into adding content because of a portion of rabid fans demanding it...
They've added charms, announced David, and that's just in-game stuff. They've held the IntoTheRainbow streams showcasing LGBT+ streamers, on top of fundraisers for charities, emotes on Twitch and Discord, etc. I truly don't feel like BHVR is having their arm twisted into adding these things. This seems like stuff they're just as passionate about including as the community.
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While I understand and somewhat feel the same about the announcement, it was still a lose-lose situation for BHVR.
If they didn’t make the announcement people would say they don’t mean it genuinely and just threw it in to have it done. The announcement was also a direct follow up of their statement two years ago and showcasing their results of their work with GaymerX.
not saying you yourself would do this, but there are many people that are just trying to find excuses to criticize LGBTQ+ representation no matter what.
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There doesn't have to be pressure. I merely stated that some people may view things like this as being influenced and/or pressured by others to do it. Its not an unreasonable take, especially with how the world has been these past few years. I also said they could have just wanted to do it because they want to. I was only stating why I think people could have different views on this. I personally don't know for sure so I don't want to assume anything. They said they "acknowledged and share in our player's desire to include LGBTQIA2+ content in-game." So my first question that comes up after reading this is, would they have included lgbt content in game had the players not had this desire? And also this was not a universal desire from the community. Many DBD players did not and do not desire this content in the game, so it won't appeal to them. In fact it may also be a deterrent to many players currently and potentially playing the game. It certainly stirred quite the reaction when they started doing it. I guess the only thing that matters now is how they handle this going forward.
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Sexual identities? This is something I only recently feel like they want to include in the game, as I have not seen it up until now
but there have been sexual identities in DbD lore for a long time. It was never stated outright that those characters are heterosexual but heterosexual relationships and therefore at least part of characters‘ sexualities have always been mentioned in lore (Nurse, Legion Tome, Felix and others).
now they did say they wanted to leave it up to the players imagination but they didn’t really act like that and only made ‚exceptions‘ for heterosexual relationships as they evidently did care and wanted to flesh out their characters with relationships/sexual identity/etc.
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Where exactly is a problem here?
just because some people are asking for more doesn’t mean most of the people aren’t satisfied. There will always be people complaining no matter what it’s about. That’s not a problem nor an argument against representation.
also the devs have confirmed there will be more LGBTQ+ representation in DbD and both new and existing characters are possible.
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Yep. Which is why I think going by their original stance of leaving it up to the players it would've been best for them to not include those parts of the lore for the characters you mentioned. When I first started playing DBD there were no pride charms in the game. All of this stuff we've been debating and arguing about for awhile now was never a thing back then. Everyone just played the game and our biggest arguments on the forums were about moris and noed. I do miss those days.
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Nurse was revealed to have had a husband she dearly loved and she actually went crazy after his death. She was released like 1 month after the games release. And there is no way this isnt direct and obvious heterosexual representation (though of course bisexuality isn’t completely ruled out)
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I'm sure some, probably many people are satisfied with what they've done so far. However I do think no matter what they do there will always be a call for more representation. I've seen mixed reaction from within the lgbt community as well over this. Does everyone in the lgbt community want this? Do they want the representation or do they just want to live their lives like everyone else without feeling like companies are trying to be their champion?
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I would LOVE a Horror Picture Show chapter omg
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If her lore states she dearly loved her husband I can see the implication there. If their stance was leaving it up to the players then it would've been best if this was not in her lore.
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I would not be opposed to see every character have a LGBT+ outfit actually. Whatever the devs can make that looks cool. It's a game and everything can go for me :)
Would love to see Felix in a drag outfit for example.
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the lgbt community isn’t one entity, of course not everyone want the same. And there will always be people calling for more, as there will always be people calling for less/none. In the end, (good) representation does matter and is important especially to normalize it so people will finally start to see it the same way as heterosexual representation.
people never complained about this even though the devs directly contradicted themselves and included heterosexuality multiple times despite their original stance. It’s especially the people that NOW complain about LGBTQ+ inclusion with these argument that SHOULD have spoken out before.
but literally none of them did.
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I would kill for it!!
Omg imagine a Pride Collection!!! As long as the outfits aren't tacky I could see it working out so well. So many possibilities!
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Did anyone from the lgbt community complain about this back then? I can understand it making its way into the lore just for being the norm of the world and as you said no one spoke out against it before. Do you think they would have changed the lore for the characters you mentioned earlier if people from the lgbt community would have pointed out their stance with the inconsistencies in the lore?
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💚💚
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I had just saw your reply after posting my last reply to the thread so my apologies if I had gotten off topic with my conversation with Mooks or anyone else here.
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people pointing this out actually lead to this statement of BHVR:
but yeah the problem is that people still see heterosexuality as the norm while seeing LGBTQ+ as something that somehow needs to be excluded in media where heterosexuality is already included without contributing anything. Thanks for pointing it out again.
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Ah! Well I will say that was very good in them to make a statement like that and acknowledge the inconsistency. One of the things I admire about the devs is their involvement with the community here and listening to what their players have to say about everything. I've never felt that same connection with other games I've played before.
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How is a drag queen an LGBT character exactly? Doing drag doesnt make you LGBT.
People keep asking about gay characters, "drag queens" and nonbinary people like those aren't already shown in media enough.... I'd like to see binary trans people since other people, including LGBT people, forget we exist :)
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I guess drag queens (and cross dressers) would fit more in the Q or + part of the LGBTQ+ community, though many drag queens are also gay (not all obviously)
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Drag Queens and crossdressers (unless they are trans/gay/bi) are not LGBT. Are you gonna tell me a straight dude who likes to wear women's clothing because it makes them hard is queer? No thanks. Fetishes aren't LGBT.
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drag and cross dressing aren’t directly and solely fetishes.
and I explicitly said Q or + part of the LGBTQ+ community. Being queer isn’t really that strictly defined after all, is it?
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They might not be just fetishes, but a lot of it is tied into it. Femboys and tomboys aren't LGBT unless they're Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Trans. Clothes don't make you LGBT.
There has always been a big stigma against transgender people because people used to confuse it with transvestites/crossdressers. Adding those to LGBT too it's just shitting on trans people at this point.
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Calling them trans when they are obviously not trans would may be shitting on trans people. But the LGBTQ+ community consists of more than only LGBT people.
And drag as well as cross dressing are not fetishes on their own.
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