What's up with sadistic survivors/killers?

People in general are awful

I do not decide to beat someone on hook based on whether they brought Dead Hard or not. I do not care, fam.

None of this is new. It's part of the DBD initiation process. I have toxic survs to thank for my sadistic methods on this game and I relish in repaying all of them back in kind.

Yeah, I get hit on hook by killer, not for not using DH or DS, but for using.... object of obsession and flip flop...

For real! Its that string of choice encounters with despicable survivors that made me the lore-accurate Pyramid Head player that I am today: speedrunning to put you on the hook, hit you off the hook and put you in a cage and then, knowing were the cage will spawn, head over there and hit you when someone releases you sub 2:30min. Bonus points if I get a DC out of it.

Sadism on killer would be to slug someone and when he is juste about to die, hook him

(Human-) Toxicity has from what ive read no clear definition. If i would have to come up with a definition based on my perception i would say its negative behaviour that goes beyond whats social acceptable for a community. In connection to social interactive behaviour between humans i would say vaguely, its basically everything a person does out of the intent or apathic ignorance to cast negativity upon someone as main reason with no defendable second objective in the view of a community, or in short terms anti-social behaviour.

This can happen in real life through harassment of a person, but it can as well happen through f.e. griefing ingame even though argueable to a lower effect and degree. Just because our viewangle change from a bigger community to a smaller community the core definition of this behaviour doesnt change.

To dismiss something as "just" this or just that is questionable as a valid point of arguementation, you could as well argue how could anyone be potentially hurt through words, they are just words, its just talking, its just slurs, etc. This shortsight and ignorance is the reason why people ask afterwards of a school massacre how this could potentially happen, this is an extreme example but you get the point. With what we allow as a community we built our daily enviroment, the more negativity you allow and spread the more negativity you will face.

Gameplay wise it means you can escape it more easily then your school or workplace, your are not bound to this game. But is this positive for the game and the community of it, that unneccessary annoying behaviour with the goal to mentally exhaust the other players which adds nothing to the designed objective and neither include qualitive gameplay elements hurt the amount of players and the mood of the community as well as lowering the quality of gameplay?

You mentioned some gameplay elements and i will try to showcase why the community percieve some as clearly toxic and some others formost not at all (they are complained about but out of different reasons)

Looping, is a qualitive gameplay mechanic, it provides neutral interaction with certain counterplay option in most cases (balance is a different point) and chasing the killer is clearly stated as a survivor objective and gets rewarded. It also makes logical sense to have chasing in a horror game as gameplay element. Same goes for defending a hook, repairing gens, killing survivors, flashlight saves.

But what is the point of flashlight macros, teabagging, exploiting the lobby last second to switch items, cheating, etc? They are clearly not intentionally designed and neither rewarded and they are not a qualitive gameplay element that fits to a horror game - it even destroys the mood and atmosphere. These are not protectworthy alternative ways of gameplay, Its annoying behaviour that mentally exhaust players for no good reason.

And in the case of flashlight macros i will argue its even sadistic, people are concious about that they are hurting the hearing of another person when triggering it and know theres no counterplay beside a tactical disadvantage. Its hard to believe that any joy comes from triggering this macro, the joy lies in the dominance in form of a tactical advantage and to see the irritated reaction of the other player, potentially even the imagination how the person takes off the headset in pain. Try to take an alarm clock and go to a stranger you meet on the street hold it right against his ear and trigger it but dont come to me when you get punched it face, the place it happens is irrelevant, the definition wont change therefore.

So why is it bad to unneccessary annoy and mentally exhaust people through gameplay, because these people will play less, they will burn out faster and call it a day sooner. Others are seeking for revenge and an annoyance war between both sides takes place in which the meta tools for triggering annoyances are getting tested and expanded which means less qualitive gameplay. Bully Squads vs 4min Sluggers. It also effects new players when the developers try to create a hype and they get between the fronts, burn them out is even worse because they are not on the same addiction level as the veterans, they as well just quit if the gameplay is not qualitywise attractive. Theres a reason why they cant keep alot of the new players attracted through chapter hypes and i would argue this is also one of them.

Now i dont argue this topic because i expect a change from BHVR, they already stated that they are pro anti-social behaviour and sadistic traits and that they dont care if it bothers the community aslong as the impact in playercounts is not big enough. I just do it, to let people who care about this topic know that this is not an overreaction, but an rightfully ambitious request, to rise the standard of gameplay qualitiy to acceptable social norms, respectable.

"With that kind of thinking you can justify anything providing the majority want it."

In our society this is simply common behaviour culture and it regulate itself between humans and how our society judge what behaviour is social acceptable and it gets enforced by official and unspoken rules. We already had in human history cultures in which property was bound to body strength for example, so yes its subjective and individual for each culture and community but thankfully the human society developed beyond that with setting themselves more ambitious rules which established bigger and more stable communities on longsight.

Now in our modern society we can be thankfully more flexible, thoughtful and inclusive with what we establish as the rules, when people state something is 'toxic' my understanding is that they mean something goes beyond what they understand as social norms and its worth to think about it, to avoid unneccessary negativity which divides the community and lead to unpleasant situations.

The playerbase is the community of a multiplayer game and form a behaviour culture as well but other standard human behaviour like testing the boundaries in this case of the game design and exploiting it for an advantage will challenge this.

Now my point is, if something goes beyond what was original designed for the game, we should consider to regulate it. Is it good or neccessary for the game and the community or is it unneccessary and only causing negativity.

I think its the latter, we see constant complains on this forum about these topic, people stated that they and/or their friends quit this game for this behaviour culture. There are many more reasons some of which ive stated in my last comments already and i wont repeat therefore.

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With the arguementation of the blurring of reality and fantasy we arrive into the topic of metaphilosphy, neurology and psychology.

I could talk now that each human has an individual fantasy/imagination of this world and that your picture of this world is only a reproduction of what your body sensors are caring further to your brain and how it interprets it for you as well. "I think therefore i am" is probably the only self-provable reality that is outthere for you, everything else could be as well count as fantasy and be even potential illusions. I could as well argue that if you replace the information of your visual and sonical sensoric it could very well influence your psych and build a sort of reality for you. But this is a huge topic which i think is to large for this forum and i doubt that we both are informed enough to discuss it and arrive on an agreement any time soon here.

My core point against this is that you cant see mental and emotional damage and while your physical body isnt reachable ingame your mental state is. The reason why i mentioned school shooting is because it argues around the same point, (!not because of the size of the problem which i clearly mentioned) the usual arguement is instead of a "its only a game" it gets replaced by "its just talking" as barrier, physically your are safe, everything is fine - time has proven undenieable that these barriers dont filter out negativity which is your point.

The only point i see for your side here is that you can escape the behaviour culture of a game more easily, since your not bound to it but this is not a positive point that works towards why things should stay as they are in this game.

Your last point is that the size of these problems are smaller then some issues in real life, and i dont deny it but its a complete neutral point that adds nothing to the arguement. We dont say macro flashlights should change who you vote on election day. We are arguing on a forum of the developer of a game with the community about behaviour culture and why certain exploits and unneccessary gameplay elements are still in this game when they are only negative for the game and community.

i think sadism is a normal trait but i MIGHT be wrong on that one

I used to think that survivors thought my matches as killer were boring, because they would just finish their gens and leave. Then I learned about proxy camping. Suddenly they started waving their flashlights and doing a weird dance that looked taxing on their knees. I then knew what I had to do to make sure survivors enjoyed their matches. I added in tunneling and face camping. They must love tunneling and face camping, because they would all start pointing at me, telling me to do it more. When I would do it more they started dancing. Bobbing up and down with glee. They even shined me with spotlights, their clicky clicks fueling me to face camp and tunnel more.

They have so much fun in my games that they refuse to leave even though they're inches away from freedom!