LET'S CUT THE ######### AND BE HONEST
*** Answers will be anonymous to encourage honest opinions ***
Whenever someone posts a thread complaining about a perk, someone comments about how "such and such" perk is just as bad/broken on the other side.
Example:
"NOED is so broken because it rewards bad plays."
"Oh, really? Then give up your DH because that rewards your bad plays."
Some people probably don't even both to engage in posts like that because they are inevitably heated and unproductive. Nothing gets solved, no minds are changed, and it's inevitably viewed as an "us vs. them" post. So I'm making this poll because I want to know how people truly feel. Just because someone is loud doesn't mean they are right--and it doesn't mean it's a majority shared opinion. So what's your opinion? Be honest.
LET'S CUT THE ######### AND BE HONEST 95 votes
Comments
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DH is too strong.
NOED isn't too strong, but it's bad game design so falls under the "broken" category for me.
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Thank you for sharing your feedback. For my own curiosity, would you mind sharing which role you play most?
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Yeah.
I play killer mostly, but I've also played plenty of survivor in my time.
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Thank you for your honest feedback 👍 appreciate it
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DH is broken in the sense that it is too strong. If used incorrectly, it can still buy a couple of seconds. If used correctly, it can be another health state.
NOED is broken because it is just bad design. It punishes survivors for getting all gens done and rewards the killer for doing nothing. Combine this with the fact that you have to do a totem that can spawn in a dead zone and you get a way to secure a free kill for nothing.
The only time I even consider using NOED is a full end game build, and even then I prefer to use something like Fire up or Blood Warden .
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Or rather: they are both symptoms of something being broken game design wise. Yes, there are people who just like NOED / DH and that's all good and dandy --- but the prevalence is way too high for that to be the main reason for using the perk. There is an underlying issue --- and nerfing certain perks into the ground only makes the problem invisible but doesn't fix it.
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Fair point. These topics are usually heated, so I also appreciate the way you elaborated on your answer.
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I say Dead Hard because you can just do bones with Noed. Do you just... not injure to remove their dead hard?
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They're both problematic.
The only difference is that NOED can be used for memey endgame builds.
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the moment I saw the angry title I KNEW it had to do with dead hard. (guess why I don't feel a sense of reward or satisfaction for playing killer)
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Dead Hard and NOED are two entirely different perks, I don’t know why people talk about them like they’re linked.
- Dead Hard is definitely seriously overpowered and almost certainly getting a nerf
- NOED doesn’t statistically seem to be that overpowered if it even is. I think the main reason survivors hate it is if they get downed by it they feel like they got “robbed” because “they already won since the gens were done”. It’s a thing where it hurts a lot more to lose at the last minute than to suffer damage early on and lose because of that. But in reality if NOED actually inflated kill rates as much as people claim it would have been nerfed a long time ago. It would also be more popular than it is at high MMR, especially considering it’s a generic perk available on all killers versus a teachable you have to unlock.
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DH is definitely broken
NOED? After thinking about it some more I don't think it is broken, but rather just poor game design.
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Noed punishes survivors for not doing bones
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They are linked only by hypocrites who complain about NOED and don't like the answer that they can prevent it by cleansing totems.
They don't like that answer because that means that they have to enter every match with the assumption that the killer is going to use NOED, and go out of their way to make sure all of the totems are cleansed to prevent NOED.
They don't like NOED because it can turn the tide of a match at the moment they should feel victorious.
These feelings, feeling this way about having to deal with this mechanic. This is how killer players feel all the damn time about Dead Hard. They aren't truly comparable mechanically because one only happens at the end of the match and can be destroyed by cleansing its active totem and outright prevented by cleansing totems before it has a chance to activate and the other happens in every single chase, with every single survivor. It is constant.
NOED Is fine, because it can be mitigated and really only punishes altruism. Dead Hard is just a dumb thing all killers have to take into account no matter how they're playing or what they do.
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My answer isn't particularly represented by any of these answers, but if I had to pick I'd probably say DH is broken and NOED is fine, maining Killer.
That isn't strictly true, though- I don't think NOED is fine, I just don't think it's too powerful. There are a few arguments thrown around about it supposedly rewarding bad play, or carrying bad killers, or swinging crushing losses to 4ks, and those things simply cannot be true without the survivors in those games playing like lemmings at the end; it's a moderately powerful effect, but it's only active for a very short period of the match with a heavy time pressure, and it basically requires you to have played well with three perks or there'll be four people alive, when you can only chase one at once. It's far too RNG for my tastes, and I want to see it reworked to be more consistently useful-- but in this context, it's fine because it isn't causing any problems, so. Yeah.
Dead Hard, mind, is broken because it provides too much value for one perk. Use it to dodge a hit and it's strong but fair, use it to make distance to a loop and it's even stronger + uncounterable. Yet, it can do both, and that's just too much. It's definitely whataboutism to compare them since they don't directly interact and aren't problems for the same reasons (even assuming the worst view of NOED, "rewards bad play" isn't the problem with Dead Hard), though, either way.
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I think ya'll just complain. XD NOED just make's it so you have to Nea your way to the gate basically. You just have to be more careful and can't be running rabid. I've had people hooked after NOED, and we still managed to escape without a death. DH isn't that hard to counter. When you get close, most people use it too early anyways. It usually only extends my chases by a second or two. It already relies on them being hurt and also makes it hard to coexist with other exhaustion perks like Lithe or Head On.
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Exposed or Blood Echo / Fearmonger (Broken status effect helping with this)
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I get your point but they don't need to bring a perk to counter your perk.
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It does, but that is still stupid. No survivor gets a warning that NOED is in play until it happens, so its more like getting yelled at by your boss for not doing something that you were never told to do.
If NOED is a slow down perk, it is a terrible one. Besides, most killers that run it just use it as a way to get a kill rather than any genius plot to get survivors to have to bones.
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Its also the only second chance perk killers have
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No, It is not a second chance perk. There are no second chance perks because unlike survivors, killers don't have a set amount of hooks before they are removed from the game. Survivors have to worry about dying, killers need to worry about running out of gens.
The closest thing that Killer has to a second chance perk would be No Way Out, but that perk requires you to hook multiple survivors and does not help you if you fail to hook anyone.
NOED is not a second chance perk because it does not undo a mistake a killer made, it instead gives killer such a powerful tool for no real reason.
It also is bad for new killers because it does not teach them how to pressure gens correctly or how to manage chases.
Every single highly skilled killer that I know considers NOED to be a Perk that is bad for the games health along with being bad for the killer player's development.
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Poll is kinda weird I put NOED is fine and DH is broken because one has counterplay and the other doesn't but I still think NOED is unhealthy game design so neither is where you'd really want them to be.
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As an added comment honestly let survivors know about NOED ahead of time so they can do all the bones and then pentimento can become an S tier perk kek.
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NOED you can get rid of it's just a gamble perk for killers. Dead Hard is just way too strong and a killer needs to deal with it 7-10 times a game or so. And I have not played killer in a year so saying this as survivor main. I will never understand survivors that complain about NOED it feels more like bad losers and they will complain about something even if the killers was perkless.
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From a gameplay aspect i wouldnt mind dead hard but in relation to the gen times, it can lead to a broken advantage hence why its used so much. From a variety reason aspect dead is problematic as well since its not a tool available for all players but a specific perk which means because of its strenght level the gameplay is even more one dimensional then usual.
Noed is strenght and condition wise balanced, but its design lead to more frustration then qualitive gameplay and could be reworked therefore.
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Just for some context, the poll answers were based off of the most common opinions I've read on this forum (but I wanted to see what role people play in order to determine what degree of bias the individual had. Ex: Believing that NOED is fine but DH is broken is not in and of itself very interesting to me. I want to know if it's a Survivor/Killer/50-50 who is saying it.)
The purpose of the poll was to get a feeling of why people feel these perks are broken or fine. To be fair, not everyone feels that way. Some people have more nuanced takes, like you, but that was a little outside the scope of this particular poll (and I was limited to 10 options).
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Can already see the ratio,
though claiming that both are broken, heh, noed is broken only when you play with bloodwarden and the hex is hard to find,
otherwise it's actually almost nonexistant, maybe 1 free down..
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DH is broken
NOED rewards bad killers
Both of them need a rework
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NOED needs a token system.
Dead hard needs to reward dodging hits and punish DH for Distance.
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Do you have any ideas on how the token system would work specifically?
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Think of it like an endgame Devour. More tokens it has the more it would hamper the survivors escape. Let Exposed be the ultimate reward on it, with lesser tokens offering slower gate speed and regressing gate progress. Tokens could be gained through hooks, downs, who knows, theres quite a few good options.
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So the totem only spawns when all the gens pop, and based on how well the Killer did throughout the match, the NOED totem would award them accordingly? So if 3 tokens was all the Killer earned while playing, maybe the gate speed would be slowed, but if the killer got 5 tokens, they'd be able to insta-down everyone?
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3 for slow, 5 causes regressing gates, 7 allows exposed.
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They're honestly both fine at this point
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noed is just stupid, get rid of it or instead of giving you speed, make it so you're slower
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NOED may or may not give an additional kill in a trial.
DH is directly correlated with survival rates and has a 75% pick rate at high MMR.
We are not the same.
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We need to look at why people use these things.
A lot of the time, personally, as well as a few others I know who run DH-- it's to compensate killers who want to get to BL2&BL3 to get a down, despite misplaying. Remove BL2&3 (keep 1), i'll stop using DH in a heartbeat. It only goes off 60% of the time anyway.
As far as NOED, it's mostly used by, in my experience, not so great killers or killers who are very new (if not for a specific build). This is an issue, because they get kills with it, which individually doesn't really matter-- but systemically it's increasing their MMR. Then they go against a full 5k+ hour SWF who knows what they're doing, and it's cleansed in two seconds. Then they have shittier and shittier matches because they were boosted to an MMR that doesn't really match their skill level.
Making it earnable in some way may combat this. It'll teach newer killers not to rely to heavily on a perk to win them games. Token system seems fair enough. Maybe 4 hooks, 4 stacks? Noed activates. I don't really mind NOED much, cause I usually play with people who cleanse it pretty fast, but the times it has annoyed me is when they get absolutely no hooks all game then get a 1-2k they didn't earn.
We can't just sit here and say "PUNISH THING" without knowing why people use "thing" to begin with.
Not to mention moving the bar. Because I DISTINCTLY remember before the last DS nerf, everyone was saying "NERF DS AND NOED", then DS got nerf'd and now everyone's just moving to the next one on the list. What's after DH? Unbreakable? BT? And on and on it goes.
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@dugman, I don't know if you're aware of this-- but NOED is one of the top most used perks, and it's HEAVILY used in comp gameplay by every single killer that equips it. And while comp DBD isn't a massive scene, I've been around people in it for a very long time-- and they're all well thousands of hours with high MMR who play the game to the sweatiest it's ever been, so there's a good reason to look at it.
NOED DOES have that same level you're claiming it doesn't. And the whole "if it did, it would have been nerf'd a long time ago" could be said about DH as well-- but it hasn't.
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I appreciate that you respectfully gave a measured opinion and offered a possible solution. It is true that DH is a counter to BL tiers. A Killer sometimes only "catches" a Survivor because of BL, not because s/he successfully mind gamed. If I heard correctly, BL tiers were added as a compensation for the broken amount of infinites and pallets that used to be in DBD years ago. Is it fair then to say that since those were lessened, BL tiers should be, as well? And if they are, should DH then be nerfed? At first glance, yes.
It's worth at least discussing.
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Yes. I understand T1 because some loops are still strong, and some killers are still slow. Tier 2 & 3 were a band-aid fix and have yet to be removed. I learned huntress a year, year and a half (?) ago when they decided to remove bloodlust for a weekend. I noticed not much of a difference from now. I mean, I learned her so I tend to do better overall, but I didn't notice a massive spike after the weekend was completed.
I would happily take a dodged hit if they removed them. Mind-you, however, I don't think it'll work as using DH to dodge hits works less than half the time in my experience.
DHing for distance CAN be used when you screw-up, in a panic. But typically even then it's easy to mind-game if you see the panic or force them to waste it. Those DHing for distance, IMPO, do it mostly to combat bloodlust-- something a lot of killers may not even notice they're doing or wouldn't admit to.
Which is understandable, but someone has to tell them at some point, "hey you BL3'd them around that pallet and now you're upset they had DH to make one more loop around it until the gen popped-- that's not the correct move here." The issue is that I think the community tends to demonize a lot of what survivors do, and baby killers a lot.
I notice this as someone who plays both sides so much she reaches Iri 1 on both killer and survivor, every month. All of my tome challenges are done, so this isn't from a lack of understanding one side. This is from me actively playing killer, getting outplayed and people patting me on the back like "it's not your fault" even when it was-- meanwhile, me DHing for distance when a killer has been tunneling me all match I'm chastised as if I just reached through my monitor and punched them in the forehead. Over-demonizing people for using game mechanics doesn't help anyone, and babying a role so they refuse to learn better strategies help no one.
That doesn't mean, however, and I want to stress this-- it DOES NOT mean there are not still a lot of balancing issues.
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Well said.
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none of those really aligned with me, but both are okay, but dead hard only needs a slight change.
i shoulda gone with just the results not that i think about it, but it be like that sometimes.
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