What Perks do you see as Unhealthy design?
Disclaimer: This is not about what perks you believe are too strong. This is about what perks you believe are inherently unhealthy for the game and limit directions the game can head into?
So what Perks do you believe are inherently Unhealthy by design?
Mine:
-Whispers
-Surveillance
-Monstrous Shrine
Slightly less:
-Self-care
-Unbreakable
Comments
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I don't really think any of them are too strong per say.
I think that they need to shake up the ones people don't use... which they've been doing recently... and create more varied perks.
No perk should be above 33% use. I would assume Self Care is around that mark.
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Ruin: Heavily punishes new players with little effect on veteran players.
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Killer
HEX - NOED, Slopery Butcher, Iron MaidenSurvivors
prove thyself, Self-care, Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Bond, Empathy, WGLF1 -
DStrike:
One single wiggle DS can make you lose the game if you lose that important hook to keep the momentum. Also it creates big cocky egos.
Noed: The only reason why a bad killer can get kills. It doesn't come with a requirement of the killer to perform good (like Devour Hope) but beeing bad (kinda same with DS, Punishing the killer for getting downed)6 -
@Dwight_Confusion said:
I don't really think any of them are too strong per say.I think that they need to shake up the ones people don't use... which they've been doing recently... and create more varied perks.
No perk should be above 33% use. I would assume Self Care is around that mark.
I think self-care tells a different story;
Self-care's pick-rate tells us that the survivor experience at it's base state is just more fun when you have basic self-sufficiency. Even when people have a particular built, they will shove in a self-care anyways.That is why I believe self-care should be base. (And killers need a more healthy version of hex ruin into their kit, or anything that grants them more time, while not hurting lower-survivor count teams.)
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@Might_Oakk said:
Ruin: Heavily punishes new players with little effect on veteran players.Facts.
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Decisive and Noed.
Everything else is fine although some perks are in need of a slight buff to make them viable.0 -
Insidious: Simply a Perk which promotes a really bad way of playing this game, also has a bigger impact on Solo Players and nearly no impact on SWF.
WGLF: For me the most stupid Perk in the game, it does not help you to survivor or does not help others to survive. If all of the WGLF Players would run We Will Make It...
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According to the last statistics by devs (i think a year ago)Self-care had about a ~21% usage PER PERK SLOT, thus being at about ~84% of survivors.Dwight_Confusion said:I don't really think any of them are too strong per say.
I think that they need to shake up the ones people don't use... which they've been doing recently... and create more varied perks.
No perk should be above 33% use. I would assume Self Care is around that mark.
not sure about unhealthy design, but i think the killer perks that unconditionally boost a stat (brutal strrenght, shadowborn, unrelenting etc) might be "boring" in comparison to more interactive perks.
But getting rid of those and compensated buffs wont happen ad that would buff base killers0 -
insidious.
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The idea behind perks is to get a varied play style...
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@Dwight_Confusion said:
The idea behind perks is to get a varied play style...Exactly, which is why a perk that is for so many people part of their basic need of making the game enjoyable, should be part of their base-kit. Could've prevented all the awkwardness with older versions off BT and could've prevented the entire Mending mechanic. (:
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Mine:AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Disclaimer: This is not about what perks you believe are too strong. This is about what perks you believe are inherently unhealthy for the game and limit directions the game can head into?
So what Perks do you believe are inherently Unhealthy by design?
Mine:
-Whispers
-Surveillance
-Monstrous ShrineSlightly less:
-Self-care
-Unbreakable
Diversion
Autodidact
NOED
DS
Slightly Less:
Self Care
Pop Goes The Weasel1 -
Monstrous shrine?
#########? What's wrong with the most useless killer perk?1 -
@Tsulan said:
Monstrous shrine?
#########? What's wrong with the most useless killer perk?We're not discussing whether it's Overpowered or Underpowered. We're discussing whether it's problematic game-design.
I don't consider NOED bad game-design, although it might be over-powered relative to other killer perks, there are a million ways in which you can turn an end-game buff into a healthy mechanic.
Monstrous shrine however cannot be healed. The number increase that you get from hooks is so low, because you wouldn't want it higher as the only thing that'd promote is camping. (And if buffed high enough even among the higher tier players.) The perk in it's design cannot be properly balanced without becoming toxic.
Similar to how whispers is problematic, as it kills off any real dynamic progression a 1 person team could achieve, limiting us to a very specific state the game needs to be in, in order for it to be balanced.
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Self care has a bad design because it's trash.
DS is too overpowered and should be removed.
Monstrous shrine is trash.
NOED should be removed.0 -
You have piqued my curiosity. Why Diversion and Autodidact?Nickenzie said:
Mine:AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Disclaimer: This is not about what perks you believe are too strong. This is about what perks you believe are inherently unhealthy for the game and limit directions the game can head into?
So what Perks do you believe are inherently Unhealthy by design?
Mine:
-Whispers
-Surveillance
-Monstrous ShrineSlightly less:
-Self-care
-Unbreakable
Diversion
Autodidact
NOED
DS
Slightly Less:
Self Care
Pop Goes The Weasel0 -
Huntress Lullaby. Its poor design because it alerts Survivors of its presence even before it becomes useful. At least Devour Hope doesnt.
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Actually only NOED:
Even if you play very well the whole match you might just get hit 1 time at the end and die because of it.For DS:
Just make DS stun for like half a second less and it will be fine in my opinion. You can still counter ds with bringing "Enduring", dropping survivors off an edge or dribble them (often survivors do not even get to the next pallet).0 -
SC, DS, and NOED0
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Whispers is fine. It's meant to help you find that 1 survivor that refuses to come out. And as survivor you can dodge it so long as you know the killer has it, which you can usually tell when they are always near you. Not to mention if it's a situation where you are the last one left and hatch has not spawned then the killer should get the 4k. If the survivor was going to outplay them they would have done it sooner.
I can see your point about MS but it's a bad perk anyway and needs a rework.
The new Surveillance is a good perk, but I don't think it's bad design. It requires the killer to kick the gen, and you can bait the killer to waste a lot of time by just tapping gens that were kicked with little progress.
Insidious is a perk that is badly designed because it requires a killer to stand still for extended periods of time. This is just completely contradictory to what a killer should be doing, which is always doing something. The only actual use of the perk is to camp a hook. It needs a rework to make it viable and not trolly. That's really the only perk I feel is "bad design" most others are just useless.
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Whispers is fine. It's meant to help you find that 1 survivor that refuses to come out. And as survivor you can dodge it so long as you know the killer has it, which you can usually tell when they are always near you. Not to mention if it's a situation where you are the last one left and hatch has not spawned then the killer should get the 4k. If the survivor was going to outplay them they would have done it sooner.
The new Surveillance is a good perk, but I don't think it's bad design. It requires the killer to kick the gen, and you can bait the killer to waste a lot of time by just tapping gens that were kicked with little progress.
I agree that the perks are fine in the current state of the game. But here is the slightly less subtle part; They would completely not be okey if the game ... X.
In this case, X for surveillance would be any game in which the survivor count would be too low, or in which stealth would be vital to survival.
Similar to Whisperers, we assume that when there is only 1 person, all they have to do is find a hatch. In any more complex version of the game in which a 1 person / perhaps 2 person team has still a valid role to play, whispers would ruin their experience, mandating that stealth and low-survivor-counts never see any real play as their own state of the game.
You can look at it from a killer perspective too; Doctor of the weaker killers is also limiting such directions of the game, as he has an overabundant ability to track, making him too powerful in certain alternative, yet realistic stages of the game, thus limiting design and balance choices.
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- Dying Light
- We are gonna live forever
- DS
- Insidious
- Hex:Ruin
Slightly Less
- Borrowed Time
- No Mither
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There are a lot of things I think bend the game a bit, considering there was one foundation it was built on (Two hits down, hide & seek, etc). Yet we have killers right off the bat that can down you in one hit, survivors who can heal themselves and thus don't rely on teamwork, more and more perks developed not for hiding from enemies but for spotting them across the map, and some which turn a clearly new player into a deadly adversary. No perk should guarantee any outcome, and I still wish for a mode without perks (though I know it would favor the Killer pretty well, although isn't that sort of the point?) The match is supposed to be thrilling, not leading the Killer around for another run and then laughing the whole time.
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Dying light, good one! Together with Autodidact, (& perhaps no mither), these 3 perks can some times prove to be more of a net-cost than to be a net-benefit.
I think the evidence is clear that people don't want perks that can put them behind more than they help them.
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I would say Balanced landing is an unhealthy design. If we examine the picture:
You can see the poor form Nea is taking when hitting the ground. Given that falling from a high place puts a lot of stress on your bones and joints upon landing it is ill advised to land on one leg, especially in a position such as this. This is truly an unhealthy and unsafe way to land on the ground.6 -
Decisive Strike should be clear
Sprintburst counters every killer and provides a reliable safety net. Learn how to manage exhaustion and i believe sb to be the best, most versatile perk in the game. Wether its genrush, unhooking, looping, escaping hooktunnelers, getting away after slugged, escaping the basement or just general efficiency.Ruin as Might_Oakk said
Noed is decisive strike as killer
Insidious0 -
Decisive Strike: Gives the Survivor a free escape which can prevent the Killer from getting early-game momentum and has no counter that is 100% reliable. Enduring, Unnerving, and dribbling are all situational. To give it a healthier design, I would either bring back the stun-in-place idea that the devs had or give it multiple requirements for the skill check to pop up. This way the Killer can keep their momentum and Survivors will not have a guaranteed free escape. They will have to earn it.
Breakdown: The Killer is punished for doing their job. They could be on the other side of the map and the hook will still break. I know Hangman's Trick exists, but I shouldn't have to run a perk simply to hook Survivors. To make this perk healthier, I would either rework the perk completely, give the hook breaking part some requirements, or have it fill up a portion of the sabotage bar. Any of these changes would not punish the Killer for doing their job, especially when they're on the opposite side of the map. Severely punishing a player for trying to do their job in any video game is just terrible game design.
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I been using these perks for awhile and they got me killed most of the time. I'll use Diversion to lead the killer away but the killer will end up finding me sometimes because you don't throw the pebble far enough away. Basically, it's a come kill me alarm for the killer sometimes which is a bad mechanic. However, there been times where the perk worked wonderfully but this is so rare. Autodidact makes both you and the survivor you're healing a sitting duck until you get positive progression. Simply buffing Autodidact will have a likely hood of becoming a instant heal.TAG said:
You have piqued my curiosity. Why Diversion and Autodidact?Nickenzie said:
Mine:AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Disclaimer: This is not about what perks you believe are too strong. This is about what perks you believe are inherently unhealthy for the game and limit directions the game can head into?
So what Perks do you believe are inherently Unhealthy by design?
Mine:
-Whispers
-Surveillance
-Monstrous ShrineSlightly less:
-Self-care
-Unbreakable
Diversion
Autodidact
NOED
DS
Slightly Less:
Self Care
Pop Goes The Weasel1 -
There are a lot of poorly designed/poorly thought out perks in the game, but as for unhealthy design:
NOED and DS are the obvious go-to ones to name.
Ruin: I think this the worst offender here. It is unbelievably punishing for new players. It makes the dead weight on your team even heavier. Half the time less skilled players won't even power through a gen, instead they spend all their time walking around looking for the totem. Not to mention that it promotes survivors to do solo generators (this is efficient for survivors and bad for killers).
Bamboozle: Why learn how to properly play certain tiles when you can just 4Head your way through a window?
Rancour: Add a 120 second timer to the exposed effect and this perk would be fine.
Sprint Burst: Extends every chase by 10-15 seconds, no activation requirement needed.
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If they make it base, alter it so that you cannot heal whilst in a chase, and can only heal after 15 seconds of being out of a chase.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@Dwight_Confusion said:
The idea behind perks is to get a varied play style...Exactly, which is why a perk that is for so many people part of their basic need of making the game enjoyable, should be part of their base-kit. Could've prevented all the awkwardness with older versions off BT and could've prevented the entire Mending mechanic. (:
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Fire Up...My GOD IT'S SO OP!!! I REPORT EVERY PLAYER I SEE RUNNING THIS FOR ABUSING BROKEN GAME MECHANICS. FIRE UP TOO OP, PLS NERF. NO NO NO SAID MUMMY PIG
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Decisive Strike because it rewards failure for survivors and punishes killers for success. NOeD because it is easily countered by SWF but for solos it can screw you over, depending on your team. Dying Light because it promotes tunneling, which I know is fair play but it's still not very fun for the survivor, especially if they aren't even running an obsession perk. Monstrous Shrine, Beast of Prey, Thanatophobia, and No Mither because they are simply terrible.
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For Survivors, Decisive Strike is the most unhealthy in my opinion. You take this perk and literally punish the Killer for doing their objective.
On the Killers’ side, No One Escapes Death does the same to Survivors as DS does to Killers, but it’s not as unhealthy as DS because it can be countered before taking effect.0 -
[Deleted]
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I edited my post because I didn’t want to discuss that perk, can you delete your quote please?PhantomMask20763 said:What does that perk even do?
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People who use DS and NOED tend to be weak without the perk, so those would probably be exampled of unhealthy game design. Otherwise Whispers/Spine Chill/Prem can affect how you play and sometimes in a negative way (too cautious, too reliant on a perk).
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Well, I guess the post already goes over this but I will not be putting any perks in here because they are overpowered but simply why I think they are bad design. here we go.
For Survivors ;
Adrenaline - As of the current state of the game, adrenaline simply does way too much plain and simple. Its existence alone can render particular builds as worthless as it can immediately heal you and grant you a 5 second speed boost, if a killer is in the middle of a chase then they can be greeted with a nasty surprise especially if more than 2 survivors are running this perk.
Decisive Strike - This perk rewards survivors for playing poorly while punishing the player for doing well in a match, it's the definition of a get out of jail free card and unlike the perk above, it should be totally removed as no perk should ever grant you a free benefit for failing.
We're Gonna Live Forever - Encourages people to farm their teammates. I love extra bloodpoints, but this perk is a one way road to being totally hated by your entire team and can throw off the game simply by the behavior it's most beneficial to.
Hope - This isn't really strong but for a long period of time this perk can allow you to move considerably faster than the typical survivor (I believe +5/6/7%?) and because of this increased movement speed, certain killers such Myers will totally struggle to catch up if they're running scratched mirror, vanity mirror or judith's tombstone. Other killers such as Spirit, Huntress, Hag and Legion will only end up being 3% faster though luckily in most cases they have a power that can help them on most maps except for Huntress if she's on the wrong map in this scenario.
Urban Evasion - Not exactly my definition of strong, just my definition of purely annoying as the most annoying thing to experience in this game for me is the inability to find people where devs have been pushing for a game that revolves more around the killer chasing rather than seeking at this point. A perk like urban evasion allows you to sneak away without effort and remain hidden causing the greatest annoyance to some killers especially if paired with a map like rotten fields.For Killers ;
Rancor - For the entire endgame the obsession can do absolutely nothing without being instadowned and getting a free mori. It isn't really a strong perk but admittedly it's rather annoying where even if you don't run an obsession perk you're denied any ability to properly contribute to the end-game and are forced to either hide or leave early instead of being able to save teammates.
Ruin - This perk plays the game for you in an unhealthy way. Learning to properly apply pressure to the map is something you should learn and experiment with in various different ways especially when there are other perks and mechanics that can do its job much better but with just a little more effort. In addition to this, the perk becomes meaningless as only newer players will struggle as veteran players will hit skillchecks at ease and will find the totem due to bad spawns (which to the credit of BHVR, they are working on that). While I'm aware that there are other perks that play the game for you to an extent, they at least accomplish a healthier playstyle and rewards all players that use them alike.
Fire Up - Simply put, it can do what multiple other perks can do but in a lesser state. The values are horrible yet I cannot see a viable way to buff it without totally breaking it when paired with other perks. I'm more in favor of keeping the concept of the perk in mind but reworking it and even buffing other perks in compensation. At no point should a perk be just a "lesser" version of another.
Dying Light/Remember Me - Both of these perks have the same problem. They don't make being the obsession a risk, they just make being the obsession unfun as there is simply no reason not to totally tunnel them to the ground with these perks The obsession isn't penalized with a new risk, your team is penalized with holding M1 down for even longer.
Legio - Wait, that's not a perkOverall, that's just my opinion if I had to take a look at a first selection of perks I think are unhealthy. Not because they are strong or unbalanced even if some of them actually are but because it just creates an unfun experience for people at the end of the day.
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@Judgement said:
PhantomMask20763 said:What does that perk even do?
I edited my post because I didn’t want to discuss that perk, can you delete your quote please?
K...
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Why though? Some of us don’t go looking for obscure perks and simply are interested because, for some like me, wouldn’t be able to access those files anyway due to the fact that we’re console players.Judgement said:
I edited my post because I didn’t want to discuss that perk, can you delete your quote please?PhantomMask20763 said:What does that perk even do?
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@Might_Oakk said:
Ruin: Heavily punishes new players with little effect on veteran players.I never really understood how people can say this...
It has just as much of an effect on veteran players as new players because a veteran player hitting 4 great skill checks will progress a non-ruin gen 20%+the amount of seconds he repairs.
You get 5% progression added when hitting great skill checks, but with ruin it does not. The only difference being the shock thing that stops progression all together for a second or two. It affects new players more, but I'd argue that it also has a huge effect on veteran players that would get their gens done 20-30% quicker if they got 4-6 skills checks on the gen.
That being said, I really don't think it's too bad. It forces players to go do totems and potentially getting the location of dull totems just in case of NOED. I find that if a killer runs Ruin and NOED, the NOED get's take down rather quickly, because people have been looking for totems previously.
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Because it’s a perk that warrants immediate, permanent IP bans when you hack it in to use it, and I’m not sure whether discussing the perk will get me banned or barred, so I’d rather not gamble.JammyJewels said:
Why though? Some of us don’t go looking for obscure perks and simply are interested because, for some like me, wouldn’t be able to access those files anyway due to the fact that we’re console players.Judgement said:
I edited my post because I didn’t want to discuss that perk, can you delete your quote please?PhantomMask20763 said:What does that perk even do?
That being said, the perk is literally on the wiki under ‘unused perks’, or you can just find it in the Perks page under that category.0 -
@micsan said:
@Might_Oakk said:
Ruin: Heavily punishes new players with little effect on veteran players.I never really understood how people can say this...
It has just as much of an effect on veteran players as new players because a veteran player hitting 4 great skill checks will progress a non-ruin gen 20%+the amount of seconds he repairs.
You get 5% progression added when hitting great skill checks, but with ruin it does not. The only difference being the shock thing that stops progression all together for a second or two. It affects new players more, but I'd argue that it also has a huge effect on veteran players that would get their gens done 20-30% quicker if they got 4-6 skills checks on the gen.
That being said, I really don't think it's too bad. It forces players to go do totems and potentially getting the location of dull totems just in case of NOED. I find that if a killer runs Ruin and NOED, the NOED get's take down rather quickly, because people have been looking for totems previously.
Great skill checks give 2% progress not 5%. Also veteran players know every totem spawn so can destroy the totem very quickly if nearby.
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@Might_Oakk said:
@micsan said:
@Might_Oakk said:
Ruin: Heavily punishes new players with little effect on veteran players.I never really understood how people can say this...
It has just as much of an effect on veteran players as new players because a veteran player hitting 4 great skill checks will progress a non-ruin gen 20%+the amount of seconds he repairs.
You get 5% progression added when hitting great skill checks, but with ruin it does not. The only difference being the shock thing that stops progression all together for a second or two. It affects new players more, but I'd argue that it also has a huge effect on veteran players that would get their gens done 20-30% quicker if they got 4-6 skills checks on the gen.
That being said, I really don't think it's too bad. It forces players to go do totems and potentially getting the location of dull totems just in case of NOED. I find that if a killer runs Ruin and NOED, the NOED get's take down rather quickly, because people have been looking for totems previously.
Great skill checks give 2% progress not 5%. Also veteran players know every totem spawn so can destroy the totem very quickly if nearby.
Oh, it's only 2%? I mean it still noticeable if you get 4-5(8-10% faster) skill checks, usually only get 2-3(4-6%) maybe 4(8%) though, unless you are lucky\unlucky I guess.
But not nearly as bad then, no. But considering things like Resilience, gives you a 9% speed increase when you're injured, it's still something that you would notice.
I'm not 100% sure if it translates like that though, does it?
5 great skill checks = 10%
Is this the exact same as if you had 10% speed increase and only hit good skill checks?0 -
@Might_Oakk said:
@micsan said:
@Might_Oakk said:
Ruin: Heavily punishes new players with little effect on veteran players.I never really understood how people can say this...
It has just as much of an effect on veteran players as new players because a veteran player hitting 4 great skill checks will progress a non-ruin gen 20%+the amount of seconds he repairs.
You get 5% progression added when hitting great skill checks, but with ruin it does not. The only difference being the shock thing that stops progression all together for a second or two. It affects new players more, but I'd argue that it also has a huge effect on veteran players that would get their gens done 20-30% quicker if they got 4-6 skills checks on the gen.
That being said, I really don't think it's too bad. It forces players to go do totems and potentially getting the location of dull totems just in case of NOED. I find that if a killer runs Ruin and NOED, the NOED get's take down rather quickly, because people have been looking for totems previously.
Great skill checks give 2% progress not 5%. Also veteran players know every totem spawn so can destroy the totem very quickly if nearby.
I don't know why, but my reply to you seems to have vanished. Sorry if I double post...
If it's only 2% then it's not as noticeable, but it's still comparable with having Resilience effect on at all times.
I usually get around 4-5 skill checks per gen, which is 8-10% faster.
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