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Dead hard (and COH, DS, BT, etc) are one of the few good perk designs.
dead hard is "broken" because it's the only decently designed perk in a game with a really obsolete gameplay design that would have been fine maybe in 2012. dead hard is fun to use, and it's fun to use because it's interactive. instead of nerfing it, all perks should be similar to it (even killers' obviously) and the game should be balanced around that. as of right now the game prioritizes small values over long time instead of bursts of high value.
i mean, imagine if Hope gave you 30% movespeed for 10 seconds the next time you enter chase instead of 5% movespeed over 2 minutes. imagine if self care healed you in 6 seconds, but it spawned a few healing herbs that you have to find in order to use it.
perks like "get 2% gen speed" are way more boring than "get 50% gen speed for 30 seconds after a succesful chase" even assuming that they have the same exact value over the span of a game. not only that, but they're also non interactive, and dont create any fun moments in game where both the player and his teammates and opponent notice its value.
another thing: why is it that you try to balance the entire game around perks with a terrible design, instead of changing the game mechanics? for example you could make dead hard basekit and give killers a two combo hit. like lunge + small area slash after it, or two regular hits for when you get bodyblocked. the entire game would be more interactive with juking and whatnot. it's not possible that a game in 2022 is so clunky, that survivors can swarm you and all you can do is hit one at a time while they take turns tanking the hit and you have 2 seconds cd in between all of these.
arent killers supposed to be a threat? the real threat here is a table between the killer and the survivor or simply standing still in group. it's honesly pathetic.
also let me be more clear: i dont think all the perks i mentioned are meta because they're the best (some of them are, but not all), they're meta because they're designed in a way that they're fun to use and you notice their value. what i mean is, that dead hard isn't necessarily that much stronger than any other exhaustion perk. if spint burst was the interactive one instead, like requiring you to QTE shift, it would be the meta one. however there are also good designed perks that aren't meta like deception.
anyway, i guess the moral of the story is that i really have low if nonexistant expectations for the upcoming perk rework, especially considering that just now they released haddie+yoichi with the most useless, niche, and boring perks ever made. the people who created those perks are the same working on the reworked ones, keep in mind.
TL;DR: if you can't be bothered to read all of the thread please, just don't reply. if you're a killer main who read the title only and is gonna reply "oh you want survivors to be op you're trolling" please spend your time more usefully.
Comments
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No
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Mind explaining what's so interactive about being able to press the E key to get to a pallet? Because I don't see the interaction between the killer and survivor there. You didn't outplay them or so, you just happened to press a button that granted you the distance you needed to get to a safe space and the killer can't really do anything about it.
Also, perks are definitely meta because they're the best. That's the whole point about them being meta...
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Dead Hard is interactive? Yeah when someone uses Dead Hard for Distance:tm: and there's nothing I can do except watch them chain 2 tiles they have no business ever chaining because I played correctly is so interactive, I adore having absolutely zero of my choices matter because E to Outplay.
i mean, imagine if Hope gave you 30% movespeed for 10 seconds the next time you enter chase instead of 5% movespeed over 2 minutes. imagine if self care healed you in 6 seconds, but it spawned a few healing herbs that you have to find in order to use it.
Then Self-Care would be either godtier or awful, depending on RNG, and Hope would absoluetly cripple 110 killers moreso than current. Nothing says interactive gameplay like "Your killer's base movement speed which you have no agency in controlling is simply too slow for this perk."
another thing: why is it that you try to balance the entire game around perks with a terrible design, instead of changing the game mechanics? for example you could make dead hard basekit and give killers a two combo hit. like lunge + small area slash after it, or two regular hits for when you get bodyblocked. the entire game would be more interactive with juking and whatnot. it's not possible that a game in 2022 is so clunky, that survivors can swarm you and all you can do is hit one at a time while they take turns tanking the hit and you have 2 seconds cd in between all of these.
I genuinely would prefer current DBD gameplay to this. Absolutely, without a doubt. Bodyblocking is easy to deal with in most, if not all, situations provided you can play it tactically, making it substantially more interactive than basekit Dead Hard which can be used for distance and a two-combo lunge rewarding players who can't aim and doing nothing to compensate for the fact you've made the most commonly used surivivor perk in the game base kit with no nerfs whatsoever.
Not a great idea.
arent killers supposed to be a threat? the real threat here is a table between the killer and the survivor or simply standing still in group. it's honesly pathetic.
So you think looping and bodyblocking is unhealthy for the game, but Dead Hard and COH (perks which famously create very fun gameplay experiences for killers everywhere and have no complaints about them at all) are perfectly healthy for the game and encourage interactive gameplay? Because I don't see it.
also let me be more clear: i dont think all the perks i mentioned are meta because they're the best (some of them are, but not all), they're meta because they're designed in a way that they're fun to use and you notice their value. what i mean is, that dead hard isn't necessarily that much stronger than any other exhaustion perk. if spint burst was the interactive one instead, like requiring you to QTE shift, it would be the meta one. however there are also good designed perks that aren't meta like deception.
Head On is common cited as one of the most fun and interactive perks in the game, offering ample counterplay on both sides and giving survivors a very good reward (3 second stun) for succeeding in using it, but rewarding killers with a free hit if they play around it. It's very well designed IMHO, and yet it isn't meta because it isn't strong.
META is an acronym and it stands for "Most Efficient Tactics Available" or "Most Effective Tactics Available" depending on who you ask. In DBD, efficiency is effectiveness so it doesn't really matter. Perks are meta because of their efficiency in gameplay and effectiveness in allowing one to win.
So yes, perks are meta because they're the strongest in the game.
anyway, i guess the moral of the story is that i really have low if nonexistant expectations for the upcoming perk rework, especially considering that just now they released haddie+yoichi with the most useless, niche, and boring perks ever made. the people who created those perks are the same working on the reworked ones, keep in mind.
They also released Sadako with 2 excellently designed perks (Call Of Brine and Scourge Hook: Floods of Rage) and Dredge with 2 very strong perks (locker reveal and pallet break).
Overall, I think I put it best in a previous comment of mine:
"I didn't think I'd see Dead Hard being healthy for the game as a take today but here we are."
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There’s is nothing interactive about watching survivor get to a pallet or window when you otherwise would have a hit.
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i mean interactive in the literal gameplay sense, not interaction between killer and survivor. it's an added gameplay mechanic. you literally get a dodge button. perks that are just free stats stickers like 10% healing speed are not really interactive.
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So what you mean by that is active abilities and not passive abilities. Sure passive abilities are always more boring than the active ones but that doesn't mean that the active abilities are interactive or well designed perks at all.
I feel like you're putting the bar real low if the only requirement for a well designed perk is an active ability, which still isn't that active anyways because it's not like smashing a button is so hard or fun to do. By that logic doing gens is hella fun because of skillchecks. After all, not only do you get to push a button, but you have to time it as well!
Only... Gens are by far the least fun part about DBD for survivors.
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I didn't think I'd see Dead Hard being healthy for the game as a take today but here we are.
see, you missed my point entirely. of course dead hard is not healthy in the current state of the game. im saying that it's the game's flawed base mechanics that make this perk broken where it wouldn't have been so in a normally designed game. it's not the perk itself being broken.
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??
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kinda but not really. hope is a passive ability, and would still be "interactive" with the change i proposed. as in, you can see it take effect and shape your gameplay.
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Did you really just say COH and dead hard are goodly designed
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That is the one aspect of the comment you focus in on, despite asking people to read your entire OP comment and thus I did and responded to each section. Nice.
As your title, you said "Dead hard [is] one of the few good perk designs". For a perk to be well designed, it must therefore be healthy for the game, for "well designed" and "healthy for the game" in terms of game design and gameplay are entirely synonymous. You repeated the claim several times that Dead Hard is well designed, therefore repeating that Dead Hard is healthy.
For a perk to be well designed, not only must it make sense in a general context but also within the specific context of the video game. In fact, I'd argue that how it funcitons within the game it is within is far more important than how it functions in general. And how Dead Hard currently functions within DBD is not healthy, and thus must be badly designed, for they too are synonymous. Therefore, your title, and the many assertions you make within your post, are false, for you consider how the perk would function within a lot of games which are not DBD without actually focusing on how it works in DBD.
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i think that yes, a perk that is engaging and everyone can see its effects in game is infinitely better designed than a square status sticker you slap on your survivor for 10% healing speed. the problem is that it doesnt work because the base game mechanics are garbage. adrenaline is a greatly designed perk too, by the way.
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You lost me at "Dead Hard is interactive".
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There's a thing called overcomplication. DbD is in itself a relatively simple game. What you're suggesting here is adding an entire new layer of metagame over the metagame that already exists. Your perk buffs mean that, if they go unanswered by other perks, they are match-winning on their own. Therefore, they must be answered for the other to stand a chance at all. By simple virtue of there being 16 perk slots versus only 4, that would mean that the role with only 4 perk slots would need to have their perks be so absurdly strong to meet the level of the 16, or just be wiped every single game. Especially if the group is coordinated, they will have a 12 perk advantage over the killer.
Your 50% repair speed buff perk would equate to 60 seconds repairing to fixing a gen solo, without any other modifiers. That's beyond busted when "winning a chase" is as simple as running in for a quick chase proc while the killer is occupied with another survivor, and dip immediately once the 'chase' begins.
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I agree with DS BT and even DH... but not with COH. I think boons were a bad idea in general.
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i didnt really think the numbers through, i just picked randomly as an example. i also said that both the stat stick and the proposed change could have the same value overall, but the "interactive" one would be infinitely better and healthier. also more fun = more healthy. keep in mind that this game sucks because most of the experiences it has to offer are really frustrating and therefore unfun, and therefore not. healthy.
take another look at my self care change, for example. it takes 32 seconds to self care. while with my version you could waste 26 looking for an herb, and 6 actually healing. same value, same balance, one is fun, the other is not. one has engaging gameplay, the other is looking at the screen for 32 seconds.
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Dead Hard is two very good perks combined into one mega-perk. In principle, the idea of an activatable perk that dodges attacks is perfectly fine, and like you said that's more interesting than a passive numerical buff. But in practice Dead Hard being both a big lunge for distance AND a way to 100% dodge attacks based on seeing the attack animation makes it far too powerful. The reason literally 75% of above average MMR survivors use Dead Hard isn't that it's "fun", it's because it's extremely effective. It has a significant statistical impact on your escape rate compared to almost any other perk, again because it's really two effects (dodging attacks and lunging for distance) that each in their own right could be perks which players would use.
Dead Hard being as overpowered and overly popular as it is isn't an "issue with the base game", it's an issue with this specific perk needing a nerf.
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Just something to add on the last point you made. I feel this is an issue: killers get so many good perks most patches, like a lot of stuff able to shake their meta or almost meta (powerful aura reading). The last good perk survivors got was CoH, which was busted. Nerfed twice, still pretty good. But before that? Game has gone years without anything able to shake the meta on the survivor side.
The point is that without base game changes I don't see a lot of hope on the survivor side meta.
And if the perk overhaul comes with just nerfs to "second chances" and "slowdowns", we will most likely just see another upsurge in tunneling and camping just like with coh
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Your ideas would totally not work without a huge amount of refactoring. Favoring active abilities over passives is a totally fine view to have but would absolutely not work in DBD without restarting from scratch. The values you propose and scenarios they would make could win matches entirely on their own if they were just slapped in. Additionally nobody likes "nuke" behavior which is what you ddescribe. Sprint dashing at 500% speed away from a killer is sure satisfying is a survivor but there's no countering it as killer. Simmilarly having some active dash multi hit type move where you instantly go down as a survivor with no input from your side does not sound fun. I am absolutely not a fan of "if everything is broken, nothing is"
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The last good perk survivors got was CoH, which was busted. Nerfed twice, still pretty good. But before that? Game has gone years without anything able to shake the meta on the survivor side.
I think the problem with this, and the reason I'm hopeful for the meta shakeup, is because the Survivor meta is just so balls to the walls overpowered (COH, Dead Hard) or corrects a fundamental issue within the game which should've been fixed at base (BT, DS). With basekit changes being made and nerfs being given to the most busted things, I feel like we'll be seeing a lot less perks ran for necessity and because of just how much better they are, and it should hopefully be more like the killer meta which is substantially more diverse. Like, Overzealous could be good if Prove Thyself wasn't there. Boon: Dark Theory could be useful as a loop extender if Dead Hard didn't do it's job but 60x better. Why run Off The Record when you could use Iron Will?
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Yeah, I totally agree with that. But that's what we need, a change to some base game mechanics _along_ with the meta shake up
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It’s nice to get a reminder every now and then of why the devs shouldn’t take community recommendations.
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Already i skipped through this post while it defends dh as "Fun to Use"
Dh is not really fun to use when you see it over and over and over and over every single ######### match 24 / 7, atleast killer shakes it up, NOT SURVIVORS APPARENTLY, they have gotten so boring and so mind-numbingly scared to even bother how to learn to loop better when they can just say:
"OPE, IM INJURED NOW! YOU GOTTA RESPECT MY DH AND SEE ME JUST SLIDE MY WAY INTO THEM PALLET DMS CAUSE I KNOW HOW TO LOOP!"
Honestly if they use it cause they're scared to loop, that's One thing.. But they use it to annoy the hell outta the killer and it's tiresome, Most likely than not you also think that pre-throwing and holding W is also fun..
This ain't a post to attack Anyone, (In-case mods say otherwise) This post is moreso wanting people to R E A L I Z E Dh is a broken perk and needs to be removed for the game to be in a healthier spot,
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The trend has been to make playing survivor less fun with constantly nerfing fun perks and release overpowered killer perks at the same time.
I do agree perks like CoH and Dead Hard, and yes Object of Obsession we're used because they are fun, not because they gave a significant advantage. Killer mains complain because they were used and blame their losses on them instead of their mistakes.
Object of Obsession was fun to use but you literally are playing with more disadvantage than No Mither. Now, how many use the perk? It is Not Fun.
Dead Hard is the same way. Sprint Burst is better by a mile but it is not as fun.
The story here is devs should stop nerfing things because killers cry about it and if their statistics show it used a lot. High pick rates might indicate something else than what first comes to mind.
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DS and BT, yes. DH, it depends. COH, no.
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DbD isn't a fighting game. The devs aren't going to give killers more types of basic attacks. Having a variety of attacks is for games where the opponent can fight back. I'll just say that straight off and get it out of the way.
Perks that shift the balance of the game are poorly designed. Each side has to assume the other side is running its more powerful perks (aka meta perks) and respond in kind. If one side doesn't want to run the meta, it's very likely they're going to lose. As survivor, I die while other survivors escape because I don't want to run some meta perks (DH) and can't run others (DS). As killer, I don't feel like running slowdown perks so if survivors don't screw around the match can be over and everyone out the gates in a matter of minutes.
It's okay if some perks are boring. Empathy is boring, but I run it all the time because it's so damn useful.
Just because DH requires a player to press a button to activate it doesn't make it good. The killer chases a survivor, does well, injures that survivor. Being injured is supposed to mean the survivor is more vulnerable, but DH gives them a get-to-the-next-pallet-free card because... why? Reasons? And the survivor can use it over and over and over again during the match. The whole premise of the perk is busted.
Being able to see the value of a perk has to be balanced with that perk not being busted as hell. The game should be about player vs player, not player's perks vs player's perks. When deciding whether or not a perk is well designed, it's not just about how the person running the perk feels about it, it's about how it affects the other players (teammates and the opposing side) and its overall effect on the match. DH is frustrating for the opposing side because, when used for distance, there's no counter, and it can be used multiple times during a match by any survivor running it. As survivor, I've also died because someone with DH runs behind me and then presses E when the killer swings, so I go down instead. They may think that's hilarious, but as a solo survivor that garbage gets real old real quick.
The game needs a variety of perks. Info perks that provide useful information, like Empathy and WoO. It needs fun perks like Deception and being able to put together meme builds like Houdini on survivors or backpack builds on killers. DbD doesn't need meta perks that can be stacked on top of each other for what basically equates to multiple extra health states for survivors. And BHVR needs to get away from using perks as band-aids for problems in the game (like how DS and BT are necessary for survivors if they want a chance to play in a match rather than be tunneled out, or how slowdown perks are necessary for killers if they want enough time in a match to do anything).
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this is already a perk. Nancy has a perk called Inner strength(Now called Inner healing), You look for a totem, cleanse the totem, jump into a locker, You get 8 second heal.
The concept of grabbing herbs(item) than healing quickly is very close to Nancy's Inner strength perk. Its just dbd simplified.
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Nope...
Dead Hard is best exhaustion perk and at the same time easiest to use, how is that good design?
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I actually hope they introduce more perks like Dead Hard.
I agree that it is fun and also interactive. I think it provides intensity that this game lacks ALOT. The killer can mind-game and bait it out in some situations WHILE the survivor can mind-game and dodge the killer's swing in some situations, and die in others.
When I play killer and people have SB matches seem boring to me because it's basically they just gaining a lot of distance or as much as possible and holding W. I'm not a fan of playing ring around the rosie so to me it is by far the least fun part of this game.
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Yeah no I don't find it interactive when there's a situation that I can do nothing about which I should be able to do something about without perks since its a 1v4.
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I ain't reading all that
I'm happy for you tho
Or sorry that happened
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Look at the number of people agreeing with you compared to those disagreeing with you. That should tell you something.
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I'm someone who uses DH now a lot more than I used to, and since starting to use it, I can say my opinion of it hasn't changed and is even more solid than before. Dead Hard (along with perks like Circle of Healing) are horrible and do not belong in DBD. You say that Dead Hard is interactive, but it's not. It really is not. Nothing is considered broken if it's well made, that goes for real life things and video games.
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Hello target audience.
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I'll bite, what kind of effects should killer perks give then, if some of these buffs for survivor perks were implemented? How can killer perks be powerful and interactive?
I don't think what you actually mean here is "good perk designs", and then list off some random nonsense about how "you can feel them, they have strong effects and are interactive or whatever". I think what you mean is that DH, BT, DS, COH are one of the few good perks. I'm all for other perks being buffed. Survivor perks in general have horrible restrictions to them for no reason. Ace in the Hole could give 1 brown addon, why? Technician giving you a massive penalty for missed skillchecks while Bite the Bullet does the opposite, Corrective Action existing, I agree survivor perks are terrible.
But the solution is to figure out how to make the issues things like DS and BT try to solve more manageable without perks, then buff other perks.
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A game should never be balanced around perks, for sure, but the developers always felt the need to fix problems with more perks that create more problems. Ultimately some perks you could make this argument for, like DS/BT, I would agree. Perks like DH/COH should simply not exist.
If you give survivors too much individual control and power over their perks the end result is an imbalance, which it seems like some people can't admit is also a problem that these perks can create
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No
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You essentially just said they’re the best designed perks because they’re good. That isn’t what makes well designed perks. Ironically you picked some of the worst designed perks and called them the best. Those perks generally have no downside, no cost, no skill requirement, aren’t situational and yet still completely game swinging. That’s the epitome of bad design. Well designed would be a perk like Deliverence as it has a game swinging effect but has a cost of requiring a safe rescue and the risk of not getting that save before your first hook.
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This has to be bait. I can't comprehend someone actually thinking like this unironically.
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no, i said they're the best perks because they're fun and visibly impactful.
me when i can't phatom other people having different opinions
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And that Kids, is why i think everyone should play both Sides equally to be able to discuss such topics.
Play a few hundred Hours of Killer and come back to this Post. You will find yourself cringe at your Past ideas.
Deadhard is by far One of the Worst designed Perks on the current Survivor Side. And i cant wait for the Meta Changes. I Hope they change the most Problematic Ones on Both Sides at the same time.
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I'm going to ignore the fact that this is extremely obvious bait and ask two questions
One, how is a perk that can either erase a mistake, extend a loop, or at the very worst buy a survivor a few extra seconds at the simple press of a button well designed?
and Two, how is a perk that forces the killer to stay on the survivor's rear and wait in a fast-pa
ced action game well designed?1 -
I can see where you are coming from but that's just power creep to the extreme. You say buffing all other perks, killer perks included. Well then slowdown perks will get even stronger, and matches will often take ages. Your hope idea for example would maybealso be busted, because it's just a free escape from the killer, or at least a huge distance gain, so he has to take way longer to catch up to you.
The thing is, with buffing all the perks like that, the game would become less about good counterplay and interaction, having to outplay the opponent, and become more about what perk activates or can be activated at what moment to give the one side a big boost or advantage over the other side.
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and that is why you should read more carefully and not make assumptions, since i said that killers are a joke and do not represent a threat in the current state of the game.
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Looks like the ones you call "killer main" don't know how to use their time usefully. I considered myself a killer main, but I can't say 90% of the time DH hinders me or eating it is not my fault.
But I don't understand why it called "second chance perk" also. It's just a perk you play around. Like going on high ground with BL on purpose. In that case I could name dozens of "second chance killer perk" like "Pop gives you more time as you failed to apply pressure properly in time".
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