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Change on camping and tunneling
The next update is massive and I appreciate devs' work on that. However, I would like to discuss about the change on camping and tunneling.
Adding the buffs (endurance and haste) are good to prevent tunneling. If killers still decide to tunnel, it may take a little bit longer. However, I'm concerned that this change won't help with camping. Both buffs will active once the survivor is unhooked, but the annoying part of camping is going for the unhook. Say if Bubba is camping your friend, this change won't do anything because you just can't unhook the survivor. I wish the dev had considered this as well.
Comments
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It doesn't have to be if BHVR implements extra mechanics like Prop Night that stops the hook timer under specific conditions (like Camaraderie). Create a radius for all killers that stops the timer if you stay within that radius for too long and create a Line-of-Sight mechanic for killers with range or speed like Huntress or Blight that slows down the timer, the longer you stare, the slower it moves. And if done based on a killer by killer basis, this could make a huge difference. Unless the code is so finicky that they can't mess with the base hook timer (I wouldn't be surprised, coding isn't easy, especially with older codes), there's no reason they haven't implemented things like this yet.
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Will be worse now if a half brain Bubba uses Deadlock and they catch someone at 5 gens.
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Why is there no way to fix it? There are plenty of ways to fix it. But it's not a priority for DEVs, since it was declared a feature, not a "bug".
One of the root causes for tunneling and camping is the 2-stage hook system. After hooking a survivor you have to hook him the second time to get him out of the game, so you chase him again. Less survivors=less gen repairers and healers.
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Because mostly every community made suggestion could easily be exploited by the survivors. I've seen people suggest slower sacrifice rate if the killer is camping, simply works like pyramid heads cages, can't use power, etc. All of them except can't use their power can just be exploited by survivors to force a killer to camp to just make that feature entirely in their control.
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How is that an exploit? They still have someone incapacitated, (so 3/4 progress) if they down the survivor "exploiting things" that's two survivors incapacitated (1/2 progress) and when they leave to catch the other two, the timers resume normal speed.
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You don't get my hypothetical situation. People trying to bait the killer away don't get within swinging distance of a killer. And by it being an exploit, if one of those were to be a real thing added. I'm pretty sure the dev's wouldn't intend you being able to force a killer to camp to get a benefit by making the person on hook die slower.
Going for a greedy unhook should result to someone at least down or dying on hook. Sure 1 person might die but the time bought would be so tremendous that the good play the killer would have had just turned bad because one survivor was messing with how the mechanics work.
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Any game mechanic is exploitable to some extend. And camping is a good example, killers exploit the current hooking mechanic to get as many survivors out of the game as possible.
Without making an overhaul, DEVs can simply make longer hook times. They can allow survivors to see if the killer is near the hook, like outline the hooked survivor in some color or add some icon near it, so that other survivors don't know the exact location of the killer, but they would still know that the killer is camping. It should only work as long as survivors are, say, 32 meters or further away from the hooked survivors. As soon as they approach the hook, that outline should disappear. It will add some element of uncertainty (at least to solo, SWF groups already know if their buddy is being camped), but will still allow them to work on gens instead.
DEVs can penalize Killers more (BP etc) for staying close to the hook if there are still unfinished gens and for hitting/chasing the same survivor that was just unhooked. They can reward killer for leaving the hook, the same way BBQ works now. Just make it a game mechanic, not a perk.
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(In case you didn't see my original suggestion above, I would ask that you do for context.)
Then add another rule: if the killer is in chase, the timer doesn't stop. Either the Survivor or the killer must stop moving for the timer to stop, which incentivizes the killer to chase instead of camp, and the survivor can't just be cheeky and try to buy time by running circles around a hook. And this means a Bubba with a proclivity for kissing hooked survivors only benefits when constantly moving after another survivor.
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Hook camping is not an exploit at all as even the original tutorial videos encouraged camping though. Also longer hook times after they announced some good perk changes would not be a good. Like kindred base kit can be good but in the grand scheme of things doesn't really do anything cause once someone realizes the killer is camping they can just go work on the gen or can get overly altruistic.
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Once again the survivor can stay near the hook but not be in chase as chase only triggers when you hit a survivor or you are within what like 12 meters of them and they're holding the sprint button? Overall chase mechanics are finnicky as you can be staring at a survivor at a T/L running past the corner and no chase trigger but you just randomly get a chase notif from a survivor sprinting on the edge of your screen.
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You can't camp with new Monstrous Shrine because it doesn't do anything unless you're 24 meters away. They could add something like "If you're within 10 meters of the hooked survivor, it will slow down the hook state progression by 15%" or something like that. It would help address camping.
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Yeah, sure, just because DEVs don't want to struggle with the hook system overhaul, it's easier to say it's not an exploit and everyone who profits from it (hint: the word starts with "k") will happily agree. It IS an exploit. It wasn't planned and it is annoying to both survivors and most killers. Do you really think it is ok for a game to hook someone and then stay still near the hook half of the game waiting for someone to die, after he just loaded into the game and got caught in the first 1-2 mins? It is an exploit.
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Not an exploit if its literally a strategy endorsed by the devs themselves. If they were exploits then they would be reportable which they have said in the past... isnt reportable.
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Sorry, I forgot about that. However, camping with insta down killers (or even normal killers) will still be an issue.
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Right, so you're a trapper setting traps next to the hooked survivor, it's only been 10 seconds, so the timer hasn't stopped yet as it has to be a total of 20 total seconds of non-chase presence to activate. You see a survivor nearby.
Option A) You begin to chase, it takes 5 seconds to get into chase and your camping timer pauses at 15/20 seconds (assuming you're still in the radius of the hook), meaning the survivor has only has 45 seconds left and will continue to lose time.
Option B) You continue to camp, the camping timer hits 20/20 seconds, the survivor has 40 seconds on their current phase until you leave and now you're wasting your own time.
Option C) After Option A you lose chase and go back to camping, the survivor has 15 seconds by the time your camping timer reaches 20/20 and you're back to wasting your own time.
And that's assuming you're a killer who needs to set up for 10 seconds near the hook, which is a small minority of killers.
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Just because the devs say it's a "real strategy" doesn't mean it's healthy for their game. And when said strategy turns your horror game of Tag into the world's most boring rhythm game, it's safe to say that tactic is going to harm your player base and your reputation.
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I find it funny how survivors constantly, honestly complain about tunneling and camping, sorry for the killers just doing their job.
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I play both sides and I just want a healthy game for both sides. Never once I said that killers will be op after this update. Just point point out something unhealthy I find about it.
Anyway, it amuses me when I find some players, especially killer mains, take things personally and complain back as well.
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I want a healthy game as well, I never said it was ok for killers to camp and tunnel and I don't personally do it as well, I'm just saying, all I hear the survivors constantly complaining about it, I don't know how you guys want us to play the game as it is our job to kill, we are on opposite sides, we are not here to always make friends.
I'm just speaking for the side, I play as, SORRYI don't play a survivor. It's just my opinion
it amuses me when people think I'm taking something personally because I'm giving my opinion
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Sorry, your words totally show how you take things personally and feel salty about others' opinion.
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Obviously you feel something with my words because you keep constantly commenting on them, maybe you're the one taking something personally when a killers comes in your little survivor discussion and says something different
SALTY
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Look, at the end of the day, you came into this discussion minimizing players' frustrations and contributing nothing to the discussion. If you really care about the game being healthy and non-toxic, this is counterproductive. If you have legitimate concerns about suggested changes, talk about it, but this isn't how you do that.
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He committed to me duh and who are you to tell what to talk about if you can open you eyes to read enough I was having general concern for something but apparently to your he need some production
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I'm not telling you how to talk, simply letting you know that if your goal is a healthy and non-toxic game, saying "survivors are always complaining" is counterproductive and doesn't contribute to the discussion.
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My goal is to be fair thats the whole point of the comment the game is not called survivors I was providing my opinion
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The problem is, if you ever played as killer against SWF or just decent players, you know it's impossible to -4 without camping/tunneling unless you play blight/nurse. That's what they need to fix. And i think prolonging gen repair time does perfect job at that. Of course you can't get rid of tunnelers and campers completely, but their amount would be significantly lower if that gamestyle won't be necessary.
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You were saying that survivors often complain, which is a statement that doesn't contribute anything more than saying "huntress throws hatchets a lot." It's true, but doesn't move the discussion forward, nor does it make anything more fair. If you disagree with the ideas put forward, explaining why you disagree or asking questions about it is going to get a much less hostile discussion and maybe even find good solutions.
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Omg why do you care this isn't even your discussion? Of course the one time a killer gives a different opinion and you guys can't handle it
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So you want a one stage hook system and then instantly die?
Or no hook system and people just bleed out?
or no hook system and survivors just keep respawning and every game is a boring farm?
I’m not sure what your point is with this.
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They tried this it didn’t work.
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I can handle it perfectly fine, I'm not attacking you, calling you salty, or any of that, but you were minimizing reasonable frustrations because you play killer and that's only going to lead to toxicity. Why are you so upset that I'm pointing out how unhelpful that is?
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I'd actually love to know more about this, as I've never read anything about them testing this. Do you know where I could find that?
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Dude.. What's the deal again it proves my point a killer main sayes something different and you can't handle it why does my comment have to be irrelevant because I'm a killer and I didn't agree?
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PTB for patch 1.1.2 in 2016 I believe.
After that they implemented infinite first stage but instead of gaming around the hook to buy time for their team mates with a paused timer survivors instead just left the person on hook all game.
The great irony of trying to stop hook camping with increased and infinite timers was survivors “camped” their own team mates by not even trying to rescue them.
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It's not that you "said something different," but that you didn't say anything at all, and instead, just antagonized. Again, all I care about is that the game becomes more healthy and less toxic. If your own toxicity isn't something you are willing to address right now, you don't have to keep discussing this, but no harm in admitting you made a mistake.
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Hmm, interesting, I'll have to look that up. Arguably, you might just be able to give that killer 0 BP as a punishment, but that's a bit of a heavy hammer solution, which I don't love.
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Ok look im telling you I didn't say it to be toxic I gave my opinion like I said it's funny how the only killer that's said something different I being labeled toxic or irrelevant
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And as I've said, what you said lacked any critical thought or meaning beyond an antagonizing statement. But that's fine, not everyone is willing to admit when they've been toxic, I just hope at some point you find it in you to reflect and improve.
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This is just an awful terrible change, I agree that Bubba camping with chainsaw should be nerfed but what the hell? You consider SHARING A TERROR RADIUS WITH THE HOOK a camp? Please, just. Be better at survivor. That is sad. The whole point of doing a risky unhook when a Killer is either nearby or turns around to see you is that it's risky and puts you in danger. Survivors shouldn't be rewarded for having 1 dedicated genrusher that sneaks around and does all the gens and 1 unhooker that unhooks in your face right after you hook.
Killers should never be forced away from a Hooked survivor because while a survivor is hooked, you don't HAVE to unhook them. You can just genrush around. If you want to trade, that's your problem but there should be at least a trade happening. This would also massively slow down hook timers.
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Dude I have no Idea what your even talking about bit I guess thanks for just jumping in the conversation, I hope in the future you let other people give their opinion instead of trying to blame others but I guess we're both toxic that's way
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Oh no, not slugging, not like you're running two Boon Circles of Healing and you get that slugged guy up and fully healed in literally 6 seconds with 2 people. Slugging isn't a bad and evil strategy because it's so easy to counter by getting that Survivor up.
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Yeah, I think the take home message is to incentivise chasing over camping.
There are times when defending a hook is appropriate and solutions that are punitive undermine legit hook defence.
Also punitive solutions often aren’t very good and tend to be exploitable
A lot of the suggestions to combat camping are punitive not because it makes sense but rather some people get annoyed by camping and want to see players punished for it nothing more.
It becomes an emotional argument not a rational one so typically doesn’t lead to good solutions or suggestions.
What the tests showed was survivors were just as willing to exploit hook state, by not rescuing when there was no need to, as much as killers were trying to exploit it by camping the hook.
The former would lead to protracted games of non participation for hooked survivors as they hung on hook for the duration of the game while their teammates just refused to rescue them because they didn’t need to.
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What most fail to understand -- when this was tested the hook timer did not resume the normal state when a Survivor entered the range of the Killer that paused it in the first place.
This was nearly six years ago yet everyone that brings this up echoes the same song and dance that it was just abused by Survivors.
Of course it was exploitable -- that's what happens when something is tested for a very short period of time with no changes whatsoever.
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As Killer I see Boon: Circle of Healing EVERY OTHER GAME, sometimes even 2 at the same time! Idk what awful games you're getting, maybe you're Gold 2 or something??
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What about it being 6 years later would make players treat it any differently now?
You need to incentivise people to save their team mates just as you need to incentivise killers to leave the hook.
Protracted hook timers do neither really as it was demonstrated by the player base when trialed.
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That's really interesting, I still think that with enough time and effort, a solution to camping can be found. I would even argue a reasonable solution would be remove the "hooks" from the survivor's side altogether.
Meaning the hooking mechanic stays, but allow the "hooked" survivor a way to contribute to the game nonetheless. Either as a spirit or telepathically, since all the aura abilities hint that the suevivors have supernatural abilities of their own. Because I don't know that the camping is the issue as much as the waiting is. If the killer wants to sit by the hook, whatever, they can bore themselves like that, the problem is the survivor ALSO has to bore themselves there.
Plus that would mean that they can still earn blood points while in a hook state.
The only concern is that method would either take a lot of coding and time or would likely be a boring minigame itself.
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I disagree, but good luck, have fun.
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The current listed changes are a step in the right direction.
Enhance players after the unhook but in a way that trying to leverage it aggressively (the ol BT body block) comes with the cost of squandering the added benefits (the speed boost).
We’ll see how it plays out and if it’s enough or too much to be basekit.
I gotta admit I’m kind of in the mind these days that camping doesn’t really need a direct solution as I said sometimes it’s the appropriate play to make.
Indirectly “solving” camping by providing incentive to chase and switch targets is probably enough, that’s just my own opinion on it.
EDIT: True the survivor has to sit there too but non participation is one of the threats you face from the killer and a substantial one at that. Maybe something more entertaining than spamming buttons or repeated skill checks would lessen the monotony though.
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Did you not understand when this was implemented no changes were made whatsoever before it was completely scrapped?
You need only look at Barbeque and Chili to see that incentivising Killers to leave the hook does not work.
Nearly 6 years later yet here we are with the exact same problems.
As I said, those problems would have been rectified if the timer resumed its normal state if the Killer was in chase near the hook or a Survivor entered the range that the timer stopped.
With the changes as they are now the game is going to become nothing more than camp/gen simulator with a drastic increase in players suiciding on first hook and simply moving on to the next game trying to not get caught first.
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Ya thanks same here
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