"We like the way NOED encourages Survivors to pre-emptively cleanse Totems"
It doesn't. You may want to pre-emptively cleanse a godspawn totem if you come across it, but you definitely don't want to pre-emptively cleanse anything else unless you have strong indicators that NOED is in play.
Let me just lay the situations out...
Situation A: 5 totems cleansed, killer has NOED = NOED disabled, killer loses one perk. Does also mean a loss of 70 seconds of work, so it still worked as a slowdown.
Situation B: 5 totems cleansed, killer does not have NOED = Survivors wasted 70 seconds for no gain, making it work as slowdown without taking up a perk slot.
Situation C: 1-4 totems cleansed, killer does have NOED = NOED activates in full force, survivors wasted 14-56 seconds for no gain. Survivors still have to hunt down NOED totem in post-game.
Situation D: 1-4 totems cleansed, killer does not have NOED = Survivors wasted 14-56 seconds for no gain.
Situation E: 0 totems cleansed, killer has NOED = NOED activates full force, survivors have to hunt down NOED totem in post-game, same as situation C. however this time they did not waste 14-56 seconds.
Situation F: 0 totems cleansed, killer has NOED = No time wasted, no NOED in play.
Legitimately, pre-emptively cleansing totems is the wrong move in 90% of cases. I've broken more NOEDs by leaving totems up than I have by taking them down. The way NOED is currently constructed, it just makes it a mistake to try and cleanse totems, unless the killer is practically guaranteed to have NOED.
It is a risky gamble with a 14 seconds time investment to cleanse a non-hex totem. You are more likely to lose out than to gain.
This is not a comment on NOED balance-wise, but an explanation of something the devs seem to misunderstand.
Comments
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I’m more curious about how seeing the totem location is going to help when the killer is camping the totem next to the hooked survivor.
Should’ve just done bones I guess
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If you increase gen times, there's even less incentive to pre-cleanse, because you'd be literally throwing the match. It's already impossible to do now with a facecamping killer.
Someone who does play the game would know that the two things can't go together. And yet both changes were made. With aura to boot, so even less of a reason to touch totems early.
I've already said this, most of this update is backward compared to its declared goals. The noed change is but one example.
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The noed change completely fails to address what was actually wrong with it.
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70 seconds of slowdown, now consider.
Running 1 survivor for 1 minute and 20 seconds, 3 gens pop because every single other survivor decided to play Sam Fisher and crouch around so you couldn't see them. Two gens left. Now two survivors, likely Claudettes and Dwights. do two gens and both have Brand New Parts, 1 separates to unhook the guy you just hooked, he has Borrowed Time so the first guy is now sandbagging for the healthy guy. 40 seconds are lost to getting back to that hook and chasing those two, you somehow manage to kill the Healthy guy. You hook him, the rest of the gens now pop.
Now they were all using Boon: Circle of Healing, so the guy that sandbagged for the second healthy guy who rescued is now fully healed and so are his teammates. So the healthy guy you downed and hooked is now getting unhooked and somehow, both gates were 99'd while you only looked away for maybe 15 seconds.
The guy you unhooked DID get Borrowed Time but it ran out, he was too far away from the gates. Now the whole team is sandbagging for them and you hit them somehow. They either sandbag him even more at the exit gates allowing him to fully crawl out or flashlight save him, OR you DO pick him up as he's the only Kill you're even likely to get at this point after this 5 minute game of Splinter Cell Spy vs Mercs mode and now he DSes you, the exit gates are open and he just runs out and clicks his flashlight at you.
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Literally 15-70 seconds of slowdown btw?? I mean yeah, duh, the whole reason Killers use NOED is because they get furiously unexpectedly genrushed in barely 3 minutes. Maybe let Killers actually chase people around, do less teabagging clicky clicky flashlight right at the exit gates and you would be seeing a lot less of NOED, Rancor, Ruin. Let a game last like a full 20-25 minutes.
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With the 10 second gen increase and the increased base regression cleansing totems is out of the question now, as Solo you barely have time to cleanse all 5 now, after the gutting you will most definitely wont have so its fix the gens, open gates, get out and call it a day, whoever gets NOEDd will have to croak for the good of the team.
While not all, most of the changes look like they were made by people who dont play the game at all or play at a very basic level, stuff like the Calm Spirit "buff" being in reality a nerf, increasing gen times believing it will make campers leave hook while it will actually encourage them and making Monstrous Shrine the perfect proxy camping perk show whoever tought of them has a very poor grasp of this game at the mid or above skill levels.
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How often does that happen, really? Possible, but I can't remember actually seeing it. Certainly not enough to account for it in design.
I am not a NOED user, but I think this fix is pretty nice, especially for solo queue. Solo survs will be much less likely to bail, and the odds of NOED staying up for more than 30-45 seconds are pretty slim, unless there are only 1-2 survs left.
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It actually happens a lot IF the Killer is actually good, thing is most NOED users are usually bad players because they depend on it for pity kills and throw it into their build because they throw it (their usual builds make you go "the heck is NOED doing there?, makes no sense" in those cases they down the player wherever and hook them in wathever place they see fit.
But the rare times where you actually find a good player with NOED with a dedicated endgame build where NOED makes a lot of sense they almost universally herd whoever they are chasing close enough to the totem so they can control both the hook and the totem, especially if they have luck and the totem spawns close to one of the doors.
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It's never supposed to be easy or time efficient to pre-emptively cleanse all totems before NOED activates, the whole point is you will have at least 1 person doing the totems while 3 other people are doing chases and generators. In case they get all totems, great but you're down a person for like over 2 minutes.
it's not supposed to be easy and time efficient to take down a hex totem if you even figure out where it is. you're not supposed to go like "great I deleted the possibility of NOED happening in less than 20 seconds by nuking all the Totems on the map, now time to do a hard genrush" it's SUPPOSED to be a time waste.
I agree that NOED is stupid and overpowered, but what you people are proposing is even worse. Who will want to ever use NOED if it was really easy, time efficient and convenient to delete it? It would literally never come into play, you're saying Personally a better nerf to NOED would be nerfing how the perk works itself, not how it's removed.
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What if the perk says hey im here before even appear but gives a 5% speed boost each totems reduce 1%
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The devs honestly don’t play solo q or survivor much and it shows, they have such a big disconnect with their playerbase. I thought they’d take a much stronger approach to NOED since the DH nerf but honestly I’m not surprised anymore and not surprised why their playerbase is dwindling either, just lost hope
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This was a stupid NOED change.
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I've always used a full hex build whenever i play against High MMR survivors and it mostly ends up with 3 hooks and 4 gens left after they've cleanse most of my totems, but now ruin has been ruined, its not worth running passive gen defense at all.
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Yeah this wasn’t how noed needed to be addressed and missed the point of what’s actually wrong with. It needs to do something completely different. I like the idea of making it just permanently show all survivor auras once the gates are powered if the totems weren’t cleansed. Keeps it strong but it’s not giving the killer free kills for doing nothing.
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With this nerf NOED is fine. It's gonna be waaaay easier for people to find and cleanse it so they can go get the save.
So many people would have only been happy if they competely gutted it.
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It's a lot better. If you smash a couple of dulls during the match and keep in mind the general area you did them in, it shouldn't be hard to find with the new aura. Prioritise breaking ones in hard to reach areas or areas the killer could easily defend (i.e. right next to a hook, very out in the open near exit gates)
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I mean I suppose yeah. I just wish it was an entirely different effect that didn’t give unearned kills and instead rewarded skilled play. It artificially inflates the games kill rates which is also irritating as they are used for balancing heavily by the devs.
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I like how if survivors "waste seconds with no gains" looking for a totem its a problem, but they want us to look for boons in second floor buildings like Eyrie etc wasting time but thats OK!
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You go through most of the game with one less perk. Plus there's always the risk that NOED doesn't activate or if it does then sometimes you don't get any use out of it.
Most of the time you DO get use out of it, it gets you one more hook/kill.
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Let’s be honest, how often does it actually not activate? Basically never, that’s kinda a mute point. It securing another free kill at least if not more is entirely the issue. It essentially guarantees at least 1 more kill on it’s own with the potential for more. That’s the artificial kill inflation i’m talking about. There are a metric ton of killers at higher mmr than they should be solely because of noed.
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What if the person you're chasing is already injured? Then it barely does anything. What if it gets cleansed before you even get a hit? These things aren't that rare.
The only issue with NOED is that it can be hard for solo survivors to find and cleanse it, which is getting fixed.
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"What if the person you're chasing is already injured? Then it barely does anything"
4% haste on killer move speed is more than barely.
"What if it gets cleansed before you even get a hit? These things aren't that rare."
Yes, that is extremely rare.
"The only issue with NOED is that it can be hard for solo survivors to find and cleanse it, which is getting fixed."
I actually don't think this is the main issue. The main issue is it giving free unskilled kills.
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No one is bringing an endgame hex-perk for 4% haste. If that's the only use you're getting out of NOED then it wasn't a great perk to bring.
Also I guess we're getting different survivors because it's not uncommon for me to have NOED not activate at all or for it to be cleansed before I get a hit with it. Certainly not a rare occurance.
And if it can be cleansed much easier then there will be much more saves against it, so it will now get much less kills, I don't know what the issue is.
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I cant wait for the No Way Out/NOED games to skyrocket now that its going to be even harder to survive under those conditions when the killer is camping.
Cleanse? The gens dont get done before everyone is dead.
Don't Cleanse? You are all dead, but you know, at least the gens got done, right?
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"No one is bringing an endgame hex-perk for 4% haste. If that's the only use you're getting out of NOED then it wasn't a great perk to bring."
That's not what I implied. You just mentioned a specific scenario. You'd more than likely continue to get more after that.
"Also I guess we're getting different survivors because it's not uncommon for me to have NOED not activate at all or for it to be cleansed before I get a hit with it. Certainly not a rare occurance."
For me that's very rare.
"And if it can be cleansed much easier then there will be much more saves against it, so it will now get much less kills, I don't know what the issue is."
Not saying it's a bad change, it is good. I just think it doesn't entirely fix the problem and could've been done a much better way.
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You do know it will be much easier to cleanse at endgame now right?
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The killer has to play the majority of the match with three perks, therefore it’s not a free or unskilled kill. The unskilled part falls on the survivor who failed to take NoED into account and avoid the killer when the last gen is completed. The killer still has to chase the survivor and down them.
It takes skill to do that against any survivor who knows how to loop. It’s only free or unskilled when the killer is versing bad survivors who don’t know how to do anything other than hold M1 at gens or Shift+W when they see the killer coming at a distance.
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what does it matter when Bubba will be rushing to whoever activates No Way Out, leaving the one remaining survivor to cleanse the totem. In which case, that survivor just revealed their exact location and they are now dead as well.
4k.
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translation: survivors were outplayed.. 4k earned with honor
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That's fair, I understand why people hate NOED so much but they're outright buffing the counterplay to it so it's now realistic for survivors to always be able to find it and cleanse it and go for the save. The issue now is solo survivors will usually just say "Well I can't find the totem, no point giving him the 4k" and leave, which isn't fun.
I get that a perk that gives easier downs and potentially kills can seem unfair, but gen slowdown does the same thing. Corrupt, Thana, Ruin, it all just artificially gives the killer more time for chase and thus hooks and kills. NOED is just stronger because it's only active for a small amount of the match and is a dead perk slot for the rest.
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"The unskilled part falls on the survivor who failed to take NoED into account"
That isn't unskilled, that's just lazy/greedy.
"The killer still has to chase the survivor and down them."
With a 4% haste which is quite significant.
"It takes skill to do that against any survivor who knows how to loop. It’s only free or unskilled when the killer is versing bad survivors who don’t know how to do anything other than hold M1 at gens or Shift+W when they see the killer coming at a distance."
With a haste buff no, it doesn't. Is the killer skilled getting a hit with Bloodlust active?
I'm not implying NOED is overpowered at all, it's not. I'm only saying it's unhealthy design that artificially inflates kill rates and rewards bad players.
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"I get that a perk that gives easier downs and potentially kills can seem unfair, but gen slowdown does the same thing."
No, I don't think NOED is unfair. It is fair and balanced. I'm only saying it's unhealthy design.
"Corrupt, Thana, Ruin, it all just artificially gives the killer more time for chase and thus hooks and kills"
No, that is quite different. All of those perks require skilled play in order to get value from them. You still have to mind game and play tiles well. NOED with the speed boost removes the skilled play from the tiles. Essentially I wouldn't call a killer getting a hit at a loop with Bloodlust active a skilled play, that's my point.
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It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength.
And the skilled part is getting the survivor to death hook in order to kill them. NoeD only removes one health state, it doesn’t magically reduce hook states.
That haste effect as well as the instant down are rewards for playing the majority of the match with three perks, making the game easier for survivors. The fact that the perk can be disabled before it comes into play is plenty of counter to it. With the upcoming change to it, it’ll now glow like a beacon in the dark, making it easier for survivors to nuke it. Only the death hook survivors would have anything to fear and should just avoid the killer during endgame.
Really, the only time NoED is a problem is when it’s a camping Bubbi, only it’s not really NoeD that’s the problem, but Bubbis camping ability, which should have been what the devs looked into. But I guess his sales are too good and they don’t want to risk nerfing him.
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A lot of gen slowdown is completely passive and requires zero skill on the killer's part to use. They literally just give you more time to chase which will result in more downs and hooks. Yes someone can loop really well and waste your time but you have more time to lose and thus will always get use out of it, you will always get more hooks from bringing gen slowdown perks.
NOED isn't even guarenteed to get any value out of, and while the 4% haste is nice, it doesn't completely deny chases, a good looper can still play against them if they haven't burnt through all the pallets by that point.
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Its funny how survivors always count the total charges needed to do something instead of looking at the practical reality of having that amount divided by up to 4 survivors.
Happens in every noed thread and i just noticed for the new 10s on gens.
Edit.
If survs had bern more willing to spend time on totems the new gentime might not have happened lol.
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Let it have the speed boost still and I’d say that’s pretty good. Like the killer is fueled to kill them. Perk basically becomes a Killer version of No One Left Behind. I like it.
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"It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength."
They don't cleanse totems in case of NOED already so that's a mute point. They especially won't cleanse them even more now.
"And the skilled part is getting the survivor to death hook in order to kill them. NoeD only removes one health state, it doesn’t magically reduce hook states."
NOED removes way more than 1 health state and it's not skilled getting them hook states when you got them having a bloodlust and 1 hit downs. I think you're downplaying how much a 4% speed boost on killer negates mind games at loops.
"That haste effect as well as the instant down are rewards for playing the majority of the match with three perks, making the game easier for survivors."
My point is it gets bad players way more kills/hooks than they would get with any other perk in that slot and with a removed amount of skill as well.
"The fact that the perk can be disabled before it comes into play is plenty of counter to it."
Which is irrelevant as it doesn't happen in 99% of games.
"With the upcoming change to it, it’ll now glow like a beacon in the dark, making it easier for survivors to nuke it."
Which is a good change, it just doesn't fix the problem entirely.
"Only the death hook survivors would have anything to fear and should just avoid the killer during endgame."
That's just silly. Like the other survivors aren't gonna fear a speed boost and 1 hit down just because they aren't on their last hook. You act like NOED is just instantly gone after 1 down. Not to mention that guy is now absolutely getting face camped to death even if it wasn't his last hook stage.
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It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength.
The point of this thread is that NOED, in its current form, doesn't encourage survivors to cleanse totems. Inner Strength and BP are basically the only reasons to do it. NOED is a good reason -not- to cleanse totems.
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"A lot of gen slowdown is completely passive and requires zero skill on the killer's part to use."
This is just a completely false statement. Almost all of the games gen slow down/regression has some variation of skill requirement, cost or negative attached.
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If I see the killer facecamping by the NOED totem, which boils down to totem placement RNG if they're not cleansed, I'll open the gates and leave.
Personal choice, but I don't care about leaving people behind, especially if there's a visual indicator that it's my best option.
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Corrupt, Deadlock, Thana, Ruin. None of them require the killer to play any different than normal, they simply give killers a chunk more time before gens get done.
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It depends on how confident a survivor is. If you’re good at looping or avoiding the killer in endgame, then yes, it’s better to wait for it to proc and then cleanse it.
If you’re not, then it’s best to cleanse five totems and to make it easier to do, there are enough perks to help find them.
As I said before, NoeD really isn’t a problem unless it’s Bubbi. If the killer is bad, you can usually work out what perks they have and predict they have NoeD and act accordingly. If they applied enough pressure to prevent survivors from pre-cleansing, then they earned it.
It is really only an issue with solo queue in that most teammates are bad, but then, the games balanced shouldn’t be based around them, matchmaking should do a better job instead.
Sorry for going off topic though. You are right that the change really doesn’t encourage cleansing before it procs, but at least now I don’t have to leave teammates behind and have an easier time finding the totem and going for a last second rescue.
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Corrupt and Thana still require you to play tiles and get hits. It's not just you standing there and gens go slower. Playing tiles well and outplaying the survivor thus getting you hits is skilled play. If you are bad and can't outplay them at the tile you get nothing. Thus the value is tied to your skill.
Ruin does literally nothing if you aren't good at pressure multiple survivors off gens and juggling. That is skilled play. Bad killers get no value from Ruin.
Deadlock is the only one with no cost, negative or skill require and is why I said almost all perks.
I can list nearly all of the other meta gen slow down perks and skill, cost, or negative applies to them as well.
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I would have to disagree with it being the wrong move. Only because I hear so much complaining about gen rushing that I'll do a 1-2 gens then look for totems just in case of NOED, which you do get bloodpoints for cleansing totems. If it turns out a killers doesn't have NOED then oh well, I'll get bloodpoints. If they do have NOED then they won't anymore. However, if I just ignored totems and did gens I'd be accused of gen rushing.
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All of those perks will pretty much always give the killer more time. If a killer has 60 seconds more time before gens get done, that's 60 seconds longer he has to find, chase, down, hook survivors. Even bad killers will on average get more hooks and kills from bringing gen slowdowns which don't require them to play differently at all.
NOED doesn't even give the killer any more time, and there are multiple ways the killer doesn't even get any or much use out of it. Even if the killer does get use it's usually only one extra hook.
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"All of those perks will pretty much always give the killer more time. If a killer has 60 seconds more time before gens get done, that's 60 seconds longer he has to find, chase, down, hook survivors"
No, that is a false equivalency to what we are talking about. Yes if a killer has 60 more seconds of time before gets get done that's 60 more seconds he has to kill survivors, but that is not what the meta perks currently give. They are not just giving free time as you are trying to imply. It is only giving time if you are a skilled player making skilled plays. That is good design and not just free time for doing absolutely nothing and having no skill.
"Even bad killers will on average get more hooks and kills from bringing gen slowdowns which don't require them to play differently at all."
Yes even a bad player will generally get some value from those perks because even a bad player will make a skilled play every now and then. Just because a players is bad doesn't mean he doesn't make some skilled plays every now and then. To point out that bad killers will get more value from running those perks than not does not imply that they give value you free. You must see the flaw in that logic. You're mixing up causation with correlation.
"NOED doesn't even give the killer any more time, and there are multiple ways the killer doesn't even get any or much use out of it. Even if the killer does get use it's usually only one extra hook."
Rarely is that the case.
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People really be saying there's not enough time to do bones with a straight face still. 5 Gens being completed in 4 minutes but nooooo bones are too much.
This is why they increased gen time instead of giving survivors a second objective. Because all it takes is half a brain or Derectives Hunch and NoEd will literally never get value in a match survivors are winning - but that's asking too much.
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I don't agree. If you bring Corrupt Intervention, Thana and Pain Res for example, that is always going to give a lot of extra time for the killer with barely any extra-effort on their part. Heck if I am literally afk Corrupt will still give me extra time, and if I just play the game normally the others give a lot of time too. I don't think there is anything wrong with this, but you're overestimating how hard it is to get value out of these perks.
And no, they don't give value for free, but they give value for literally playing the game normally, you don't need to do anything special, you don't need to alter your play specifically to get use out of them, you just play the game normally. Pain Res you could argue you at least have to go to scourge hooks but that's hardly changing your playstyle.
And again, we must be getting different survivors. I would say like two thirds of my games with NOED only get upto one additional down from NOED.
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Just to point out, you are literally getting different survivors. This is obvious in the grand scheme of things because survivors with the capacity to handle NoED will not come to the forum making NoED threads.
That's the unfortunate disconnect, trying to explain counterplay to those who don't really want counterplay, they want gutted gameplay for the other side.
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I still don't like Nurse 😡
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