I'll have to test it in action on the PTB, but that change does feel questionable to me too.
Maybe it's to further incentivise other anti-tunnel perks? Still, I think DS would be fine and its pickrate would still drop even with the five second stun.
General Discussions
General Discussions
I feel the DS stun will probably need to be reverted to 5s.
drsoontm
Member Posts: 4,908
Unless the intent is to only slightly delay the killer that is.
Tonight I've tried to "feel" what a 3 seconds stun would be and I just can't understand why that part was nerfed.
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I'll have to test it in action on the PTB, but that change does feel questionable to me too.
Maybe it's to further incentivise other anti-tunnel perks? Still, I think DS would be fine and its pickrate would still drop even with the five second stun.
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It maybe with the express intent to lower its use indeed. In that case it's well done.
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The problem is, there'll be only one other anti-tunnel perk, and it's going to blow DS out of the water with the cut-down stun. OTR will activate off both unhooks, last longer, and work during EGC.
DS was meta because it was the -only- anti-tunnel perk, so nerfing it to incentivise other anti-tunnel perks makes no sense.
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As I said, it'd be fine and its pickrate would still lower with the five-second stun.
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If you want to simulate this, keep in mind that the survivor is locked in the animation for about 1 sec. So, you don't gain the full 3 sec of distance.
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It will go back to 5 seconds for sure,5 seconds was already nothing against a Nurse running range add-ons you won't even make any distance and now they nerfed it to 3s I am sure they will listen to the community and let DS stay 5s surely right ?
DS is a healthy perk right now there are no reasons to nerf the perk at all just make it deactivate in the endgame.
And about OTR it won't make it to live servers there was a miscommunication between the devs(must be) they'll see how its gonna get abused in the PTB and how broken it is.
So DS will still stay as the only real viable anti tunnel perk,OTR won't be released in it's current state they will change it after the PTB for sure.
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Make enduring work with DS again instead
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DS didn't lose the "jump into a locker and be immune to damage" exploit at all, but sure. Considering CoH wasn't touched, DH is essentially the same, and BT actually got buffed, let's go ahead and revert the stun duration and survivors can keep using the same four perks ad nauseum for every game and against ever killer.
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I've been arguing with people on Twitter all day about this- I played back when some killers were glitched to have a 2-3s stun instead of the 5s, and it was nigh impossible to get away from them. At this point, the proposed changes to DS makes it effectively useless as an anti-tunnel perk (OTR will replace it, if it makes it to live as proposed, although I do still believe that OTR is slightly weaker than DS overall in an end game scenario) because no killer gives up after a 2s stun- you're literally better off getting a pallet stun and booking it, because the killer either walks around it or breaks it. DS is just a clear shot to wherever you went, if you were able to make it to a loop in time.
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If it's been neutered so much, then maybe DS should work for all hook states. That would still only be 2 times, and it's really weak still.
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3 second stun seems like it's almost encouraging tunnelling? Since I know it's only a short stun I can tank it no issue
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Yeah, even as a killer main I think that this nerf was uncalled for. When I want to tunnel an obnoxious survivor out of the game, I happily eat a 5s stun and then go ham. 3s? Thats even easier. And if I wanted to tunnel every game as a general MO? Oof.
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I'm basically removing two seconds of "chase" after a stun.
The range add-on has little to do with this. A Nurse need no add-on if the survivor doesn't take advantage of the stun to put himself in a safer spot. (Granted the range can help, in some cases, but it's a long discussion.)
That being said, the end result is the same. If DS is meant to be anti-tunnel, lowering the stuns feels like a bad direction. I understand the end-of-game change but this one feels too much.
About OTR it depends how it is in game. Maybe we are missing some detail. Tuesday will be interesting for sure.
Oh you mean : keep the 5s and make Enduring stronger against it?
DS felt right before this. It kind of reminds me how Billy was in a good spot but then got gutted.
Yes, there is that. I'm just not eager to make survivors too squishable.
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It was close to perfect. Changing it much is bound to be worse one way or another. The stun was about right. There is a kind of mantra everybody should know: "If it works, don't fix it".
There are the other factors of course, but still ...
I know very well that with my usual killers I can kill most survivors if I put my mind to it. DS is only a minor inconvenience.
The stun reduction will make less experienced players be able to power through DS more easily.
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And don't even start with Nurses or Blights who know what they are doing :V
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1.3s to be precice. 1.7s of distance can be made which, moving at a speed of 4m/s, gives the survivor (1.7*4m =) 6.8m of distance.
For comparison, 5 second DS stun grants 3.7s of distance which, moving at a speed of 4m/s, gives the survivor (3.7*4m=) 14.8m of distance.
That's an increase of 8m. 115% killers catch up at a speed of 0.4m/s, meaning that in a situation with no obstacles, no bloodlust, and only holding the W key that's 20 seconds of distance lost.
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It depends how survivors who know what they are doing play. That's more an MMR issue.
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It's now in line with the duration of a pallet stun - maybe they're trying to standardise things?
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Also, give it the buff we all want, for it to work on both hook states
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Honestly really confusing change, I'm certain a majority would be perfectly content with simply the endgame disable change + touching gates disabling it.
And as already mentioned in the thread, yeah both 5 seconds and 3 seconds isn't fully honest as you can't actually run away for all of that time. But obviously the time lost to the "getting off the shoulder" animation makes up a much bigger fraction of "3 seconds" than "5 seconds". With the current stun you lose 26% of those seconds to the animation, with "3 seconds" you lose 43.3%.
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The intent is to rescue you from the killer's grasp after a tunnel.
The five second stun only really punished low mobility killers. High mobility killers didn't feel it that much.
Turning up the DS timer only hurts killers like Trapper, Pig, Ghostie, Myers, and other M1s that really don't need that sort of punishment to begin with. And the killers who may need to be punished more, like Nurse, aren't going to feel it whether its 5 seconds or 3 seconds really.
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Only reason that DS was buffed to a 5 second stun was because enduring worked on it with the 75% stun reduction. So by the time your feet touched the ground the killer could swing again and down you. Now that enduring hasn't affected the DS stun for what.. 3 years? It's safe to say that it being 3 seconds will be fine.
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I didn't think about that.
It also makes sense.
I guess we'll see next Tuesday.
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Yeah, and at the time DS was affected by Enduring, it also didn't deactivate upon doing any action. You were perfectly free to work on a gen for 59 seconds and still get your DS off.
I don't think a 5 second stun with all its current stipulations and deactivation during the endgame is unfair.
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Sure, 3 sec was fine 4 years ago. For consistency, let's bring back ability to use it without being hooked, while simultaneously being able to work on gens and perform all other actions.
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I am hoping hey will revert it to 5s because 3s is not worth perkslot.
So all PC players playing PTB, dont forget to input feedback about it
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this
I am guessing most people weren't around back then, I ran enduring back then. The fact the increase was tied to Enduring and then they made Enduring no longer affect that particular stun, it is time to revert it back to 3.
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It's also fulfilling a belated promise that they originally had gone back on. When they removed Enduring's ability to affect the DS stun, they had originally promised to revert the stun back to 3 seconds with one of the following updates, then never did. Not the first promise they had broken.
I'm positively surprised that they finally came through.
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Why?
Just because Enduring no longer reduces the stun from it, doesn't mean the stun itself should be made negligible. DS has always been a low value perk outside of EGC, as it is one of the easiest to counterplay perks in the entire game. Now it loses the one thing that kept its value up and gave it consistency, and on top of that, it's getting a 40% nerf to its efficacy within the now much more limited scope it works in.
DS was a trash anti-tunnel perk, but it was the only anti-tunnel perk, which is why it had a high pick rate. Honestly, with the EGC (Or rather, post 5th gen) activation removed, it could've been made baseline and used as an in-built anti-tunnel measure.
Now the perk is an extremely niche and probably overall really bad pick, except against completely new killer players who've never once been DS-baited, and with the OTR changes, it has 0 reason to exist.
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They could leave DS untouched and new OTR would outclass it anyway, not only does all what you say but also getting hit not only means you dont get slugged but also you get a speed increase.
I foresee first iteration DS levels of use (which Im willing to bet it was even higher than 75% DH use on high MMR).
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Alright. For dropping facts like that, you earned a Tommy and Calimero ❤️ (Pssst! Don't tell'em the box is broken and shredded. They won't have it any other way!)
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All I wanted out of a nerf to Decisive Strike was making it so Survivor trolls could not mock you in the endgame near the exit gates. I got that. I see no reason to squeeze the stun down to 3 seconds.
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Omg I love them.
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You realize thats what made ds op right? Just being able to work on a gen in front of the killers face and they're able to do nothing about other than eat a 5 second stun or wait out the ds. Either way I don't consider it tunneling if you're doing your objective and I've hooked people before I came back to you.
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I guess a lot of people didn't know that, thanks for the input! I just thought "pfff ... if I want to tunnel some rude person out of the game, I will happily eat a 5s stun ... moreso 3s. So what about people who wanna tunnel everyone?"
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I have never used DS because I found the perk to have little to no value. If I am getting tunnelled, I will be tunnelled all the same even through DS and everything in between -- at least that has been my experience as Survivor with hardcore tunnellers when I encounter them.
Though, it does pose the question. Wasn't DS stun set to 3s at some point before then it was changed to 5s because Killers kept hardcore tunnelling and they wanted DS to have more value and give Survivors more chance to make distance? Odd how somehow we are back to square one, but with all the changes we may see this pan out better, I hope.
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I do, but I don't think you realize that 3 sec ds stun as of right now is worthless and doesn't prevent tunneling, since you don't make any distance whatsoever.
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No perks truly prevent tunneling? The whole point of ds and bt is to buy time for your team if the killer does decide to tunnel you. If something truly prevented tunneling you would have a 2 meter force field around you for 60 seconds after being unhooked where the killer cant hit you through it even by ranged means.
Also unless you run yourself into a dead zone... you 100% have enough distance and time to make it to another tile even with a 3 second ds.
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If anything DS should have a 7 second timer and no skill check. Then maybe I'd actually use it lol.
But the drop to 3 seconds is silly.
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4 seconds would be ok but the 5 second stun in my opinion is not necessary. 🤔
a 3 second stun in the other hand makes m1 killers less punished by a forced DS but at the same time makes strong killers like Nurse or Blight more powerful in terms of tunneling sadly.
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DS has always been a low value perk. What the ######### are you talking about?
Ever since DS came out it has solidified itself into Survivor meta and it's simple existence has also forced Killers to 2nd guess any action they take when dealing with a recently unhooked Survivor. Even today a Killer HAS to play around the idea of every single Survivor having DS if they do so or not.
How the hell is that considered a "low value" perk?
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The whole point of ds is to discourage killers from tunneling by severely punishing them if they do decide to tunnel. New ds more than anything will encourage killer to tunnel more because 3 sec is nothing
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I also feel having DS disabled in endgame is too much, it does not need to be less than 5 seconds. Or if you really want to reduce it to three, then make it acitve in both stages.
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2 seconds of distance is more than enough time to make it to another loop. People can head on a killer in the middle of nowhere and still make it so some other tile. I'm talking head on'ing a killer in one tile then be able to run to another tile completely. Just because you cant make it past 3 tiles doesn't make it useless.
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I don't consider it a problem for a survivor to hit you with a 5 seconds stun 50 seconds later. Because they did nothing for 50 seconds. That's the beauty of it deactivating on doing anything now.
5 seconds with all the perk's current stipulations seems plenty fair. Plenty of people seem to agree.
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I still see no reason for it to still be 5 seconds after enduring was nerfed to not work against it.
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What anti-tunneling perk is there that you can equip and use for yourself? Don't all the other anti-tunneling perks require someone else to have it and rescue you from hook.
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Off the Record.
After this patch hits, anyway.
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people came to the forums to cry about DS every day... Survivors also cry about NOED yet NOED's change is nowhere near to the butchering DS got haha
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Because the 'playing around it' part is simply not pressing spacebar. DS, outside of end-game, doesn't work against any killer that's been hit by DS once. It is the most avoidable perk in the game, with a zero effort counterplay.
Though I should correct one thing: DS has been low value since the nerf that made it disable on conspicuous actions. Before that, it was busted.
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