The kill rate will decrease if the changes go through
After seeing the perks and gameplay changes I found myself thinking the changes were more of a nerf to killers than buffs,which initially i had no issue with,just behaviour adding more spice to the gameplay,shaking up the meta.However upon rereading the patch and realizing the devs made the changes in an attempt to rise the kill rates as well as the general consensus of the community that solo queue is dead,and that survivor meta got nerfed,I can’t help but voice my disagreement.
I would also like to mention my comments are towards a higher level of play,mostly towards whats meta on both sides,not the casual,messing around as that’s just good fun and these changes wont affect that side of the game that much.
First of all lets look at the buffs the killers received:
1.A small increase to kick speed(pallets and gens),shorter weapon clean animation and a smaller speed boost to survivors.All the changes are cute,but they will mostly help m1 killers,as the buffs are only noticeable when you add all of them up.I don’t think it will impact killers that use their power to down that much,esspecialy the meta ones.
I don’t want to go in detail about how little the buff will impact meta killers(the ones who rely on using their power for down),but I do want to mention that it will impact the strongest killers the least(blight and nurse) as they have to wait for their tokens/charges,their fatigue is different than the normal hit cooldown and nurse doesn’t have to break pallets while blight pallet breaking speed wont be increased in a rush(correct me if I'm wrong).
2.10 extra seconds required to complete a generator as well as a 2.5 regression bonus if you kick a generator.I think the 10 seconds is a decent buff,but the kick is useless,I find it hard to find value in kicking generators as you lose pressure while doing so.
These changes would have been big if it weren’t for the fact that all the strong slow down perks also got nerfed to compensate.Imo this will make games faster,as now having 3 gens done by the time you finish the first chase is possible do to corrupt nerfs,you wont have ruin to amplify your pressure,pop to keep a solid 3 gen,or pain res + dms.These perks would have increased the game longer than 10 seconds per gen,as the time it takes to finish the first few gens is irrelevant,good teams will easily complete a few and then you would have to keep a small few from popping with your perks.
All of this would have been an interesting thing to shake up the gameplay of the game however the survivor meta perks actually got buffed instead of getting nerfed as you would expect to mirror the killer perks.While I can empathize that perks such as iw and spine chill got ruined , they aren’t really meta perks,sure strong ones and comfortable to use but not on the same level as dh,ds,coh,prove etc the ones that actually matter got buffed.
Sure Ds got nerfed,but they introduced off the record,which is a million times stronger,not only did they add basekit bt(adding an extra perk slot) but the perk lasts longer if you chose to run it(essentially another buff to one of the stronger perks in the game),which now can be used more effectively to tank hits for your team.The change dead hard received also isn’t necessarily a nerf depending on how it works,and even in the worst situation possible (it locks you in an animation),you can still use it to counter the strongest killers as they have telegraphed attacks.
I cant see how this will help killers at higher mmr,survivors got their strong perks buffed while their comfort ones nerfed for whatever reason ,meanwhile killer meta perks got gutted effectively making gens take less time to complete.
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more than kill rate, the killer players will start to decrease... i was already tired from the actual situation, now with those changes it will get worse in high mmr... since i don't want to sweat in every single ######### match, playing only with the same 2 killers in order to get a slightly chance to get a couple of kills (if i'm lucky) aganist premades who also use broken stuff (map offerings, instaheals, brand new parts, etc etc coupled with the SAME 6 meta perks...), i'll probably took a LONG break from this game... and i don't think that i'll come back soon (unless they'll start to get ######### done)
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It won't help killers at all but the community here disagree.
They will once again see they are wrong later, when the patch will be live.
It was the same for CoH, everyone here said it was not good enough to be META, that we won't see it blabla. Well COH has been pretty much in every game i have played since release.
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I wouldn't call it so early. That Monstrous Shrine buff is gonna be, well, monstrous. 20% is a lot faster than people realize.
And the slower gens means that every regression perk saves more time than before.
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basegame buff gonna hit harder than people think though.
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I still think DH was nerfed, but other than that I agree with you. Listening to people though, I'm prepared to be proven wrong during PTB.
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I disagree I don’t belive mostrous will be that good.It doesn’t slow down gens,get you downs faster neither does it help you snowball a game.With the nerfs to pain res and the distance requirement I don’t think it will see much play outside of fun builds.
I see your point with the gens perks being more effective but what perks are left?The only ones I can think of are thana and deadlock.I don’t belive the gen kicking perks will be that good,you just give up to much pressure to kick gens.
We will definitely need to wait and see how the changes play out
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"These changes would have been big if it weren’t for the fact that all the strong slow down perks also got nerfed to compensate.Imo this will make games faster,as now having 3 gens done by the time you finish the first chase is possible do to corrupt nerfs"
Couple things here.
1. The nerf to Corrupt Intervention won't have an effect on your first chase. It works identical to the current version up until you put a survivor in the dying state. So how is the nerf going to allow 3 gens to be done in the first chase if a survivor is yet to go down?
2. The extra 10 seconds is functionally an 12.5% buff to all slowdown perks. Gens take 12.5% longer to complete now, so any time you halt or reverse repair progress, that's 12.5% more the survivors have to make up.
All of these buffs are great for M1 killers, which is exactly what's needed to make them more viable.
Do they go far enough? Time will tell, probably not, but it's still better than before.
Post edited by Seraphor on4 -
1 - That's the goal? Why would you want to buff meta killers? There's no point in making M1 killers better if you keep the gap between them and meta killers the same. Also bloodlust has been buffed too! So killers who know when to break pallets win bc it'll take less time to do and killers who don't kick pallets because they're bad also win because BHVR said so.
2 - The kick means survivor can't tap generators mid-chase anymore. It means kicking gens is actually useful now and also it takes less time to do. Also 10s gen increase means every single thing related to gen speed slowdown (add-ons & perks) has been buffed, because x% of 90s is higher than x% of 80s. 4 stacks of Thana alone will mean a gen takes 115 seconds to complete, that's insanely good (for killers, survivors will cry themselves to sleep thinking about forever plague and legion)
Ruin has been nerfed too hard I agree, it shouldn't be a hex anymore or the desactivation effect should be deleted, but both is way overkill. And the slowdown speed hasn't actually been reduced by half, bc 90>80.
POP is still good if you use it properly. Also it probably gets the extra 2.5% from the kick buff?
PR and DMS are stil veryl good on their own, but they were way too op together. The combo still works if you actually make the effort of pressuring the gen instead of getting free pressure + block a gen + know where the survivor is. You can just equip BBQ and still gain the same effect, if you work for it a little bit.
Also overcharge, jolt, thana, eruption have been buffed, and they're all gen perks, you'll be fine. Monstrous shrine buff is also very good.
On the survivor side, 5s BT is nothing if the killer wants to tunnel. DS won't be used anymore, DH for distance is dead (we'll have to wait for the ptb to judge the rest), OTR will probably be nerfed before it goes live, IW and Spine chill were nerfed to the ground, Self-care is even worse and calm spirit got the nerf it desperatly needed (I'm still not over it). Only lightweight and botany got actual good buffs on the survivor side (and OTR, but again i doubt it'll make it live).
In conclusion killers will be stronger in chases and survivors will take longer to do gens. Camping has been buffed unintentionnally (survivors can't "just do gens and leave" when the gens take longer but the hook stage weren't increased, and monstrous shrine makes it deplete a whole 20% faster). So no, i can hardly imagine how the kill rates would drop.
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This is a balanced view. Take note, folks.
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There are three things I dislike about this update.
DH change still forces you to afraid of attacking survivors, which I despise. Please for the love of god just let me attack survivors without having to wait out a counter move. A survivor nearing gates while I'm close behind shouldn't be in control and straight up be able to get out for free, and new DH doesn't fix half the issues. I really truly hope this gets reworked or something, I'm tired of "baiting out Dead Hard".
BT lasting for 15 seconds with 7% speedboost means guaranteed free escapes lategame, even though hook trading is easier.
Off the Record is awful and absolutely guarantees free escapes lategame, and will replace DS, but also be stronger than current DS against most of the roster. They should have just buffed its already existing effects to include hiding scratch marks and blood, reduced the duration and made it cancel by conspicuous actions, that would make it balanced but also far stronger and fit the theme of the perk much better.
Self Care didn't need a nerf at all, it should have stayed the same. Spine Chill only needed to not work against undetectable killers, you could remove the vault speed bonus if you wanted to but I like it. Iron Will shouldn't be deactivated when exhausted, but it absolutely should be 75%. If people complain about their survivors being too loud give them the option to mute themselves. Also normalize survivor audio volume. CoH didn't get a nerf, but deserves one still, self care should be removed from it no joke. Other than that, good stuff, really like the changes. Ruin got hit too hard as someone mentioned.
Other than that, looking forward to it. Now I don't run slowdown that much, but I think many of these changes are great, but many awful changes too. I think they'll find that the killrates will actually go down due to how strong Off the Record is, and new DH not being nerfed. In fact it saves survivors a perk slot. If everyone just runs off the record, you can replace DS and BT in one perk slot, bring DH and Prove Thyself and it's the exact same meta as before.
Post edited by MrMori on1 -
Huntress is my main killer which ive played alot and ghostface is second and those 2 killers i can barely even play anymore. My matches are so quick and sweaty that i can't keep up. I'm not sure this will get any better with these changes im worried its going to get worse.
What i cant understand is that they gave a powerful meta perk to survivors as basekit (BT) and killers got some crappy brutal strenght? Also one change in perks that you completely screwed up is the BBQ and we're gonna live forever. Yeah you took the bloodpoints out of both skills BUT heres the kicker you didnt give killers anything else into the skill but you did give survivors the endurance effect if they pick up downed survivor. Why would you do this?
I think the endgame is going to be the same crapshow its always been even with the DS nerfs, now when you hook someone and they get unhooked all they need to do is to bodyblock for 80 seconds and free escape. Nerfing selfcare but buffing up botany knowledge which correct me wrong works with boons will make the circle of broken heals even faster which has been an issue since you put this broken perk into the game. Healing is one of the biggest issues i face in my games. I injure someone and if i dont commit into this chase they are going to get healed very fast eather with medkits or boons.
Buffing bloodlust wont do much since killers that have experience in this game rarely see bloodlust. We know not to run around pallets that are safe.
Killers biggest issue in his game is the map sizes and survivor spawn you did nothing to fix this. So expect the kill rates most likely go even lower.
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How many meta killers are in the game?The only ones that can really compete are blight and nurse,they aren’t getting buffed in this patch and yeah that’s a good thing,but neither are the other killers.The point I tried to make in my post was that the survivor meta perks got buffed while the kiler ones got nerfed.
Bt is stronger and not mandatory to run,OtR is a stronger ds.
Yeah iron will,spine chill,self care got nerfed but it doesn’t matter,they aren’t the perks you fear at a high level.As mentioned in my post above you mostly run these for comfort they aren’t the strongest perks.Ds,bt stops tunneling you can’t compete with them.Prove makes gens pop faster,and makes breaking a 3 gen so much easier.COH is beyond broken as you can place it far from the killer/obj.1 unbreakable completely kills a slug.All of these perks are stronger than spine chill and self care yet they weren’t nerfed.
The fact that Bt is basekit means you have an extra slot for one of the aforementioned perks making games even harder for killers.
The extra 10 seconds per gen won’t mean much as during you first chase you will lose a lot of gens.Losing 2 gens for your first down is the norm,that’s why killers stacked regression so that once they got the pressure going they could keep it.They nerfed all the viable regression perks without significantly buffing other to compensate.
The buffs they gave to m1 killers isn't significant enough for them to be feared in chase.M1 killers are weak due to the bad map design,the changes won't do much and the nerfed reggression will hit them harder than other killers.
Also bloodlust,really?B1 is still the same,and that the only relevant one,if a chase lasts long enough for it to get to tier 2-3 thats either a broken setup,bad matchmaking or a killer bloodlusting a pallet,in which case they lose to much time for it to be worth it.
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I really like the gen kicking nerf because it was just ridiculous how a survivor CLICKING on a gen undid regression but you had to go thru a TWO SECOND ANIMATION just to regress it at all.
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I mean you wrote en entire paragraph about how the basekit killer changes would affect Blight & Nurse the least, so it sounded like you were saying it was a bad thing to me, but my bad ig.
BT isn't "stronger AND not mandatory to run". Either it's stronger if you bring it, so you don't win a perk slot, or it's 5s the killer can very easily wait it out. Either way those changes discourage tunneling but don't do anything about camping / hook trading, killers can just go after the unhooker instead, and tunneling the unhooked survivor is still very possible considering killers already have no problem waiting out current BT + DS.
I agree the survivor meta won't change: BT + OTR / DS + prove thyself bc gens will be longer to do + exhaustion perk (DH if it's still good, SP if it's not). However the survivor meta isn't buffed. OTR is really not as op as it sounds, and as i as said i think it'll be nerfed before going live (probably will desactivate during endgame like DS). Even if people keep bringing prove thyself, and they will, gens take longer to do so it was ultimately nerfed. Also, unbreakable was very good bc of DS, but ppl will stop running it so less killers will slug. And yea BHVR seem unable to come up with a CoH rework that wouldn't nerf every other boon to the ground...
For the killer meta, tunneling will be a tiny little bit harder, but camping will be more rewarding. Literally only two slowdown perks suffered big nerfs (Ruin and POP) the others are still very good or were even buffed. Overcharge literally has 400% regression, how is that not "significantly buffed enough to compensate"? Also compensate for what? Gen speed was increased, saying they want to nerf meta slowdown perks while making an other slowdown perk op is stupid (and they did it anyway). CI is still very good if you have a problem with losing gens before your first down and getting the pressure going.
Also how can you think 5s BT is an extra slot bc it'll stop tunneling all by itself but 10 extra seconds for gens "won't do much" ? And you can't say the changes to M1 killers won't be sufficient enough when we have no idea how they'll actually perform yet (even if they're still weak, they won't be as weak as before and kill rates will at worst stay the same)
Survivor meta (second chance perks) will stay the same, but will be weaker because the killer meta will also stay the same (gens slowdown + camping + tunneling) but will be more efficient.
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I'm not sure what's the matter here? Survivors got nerfed drastically, making DS, Spine Chill, BT, Self-Care absolutely vain, with addition of Iron Will currently being nerfed as well, as it ravaged the whole point of not making any noise.
Killers got buffed mightily, they have received a lot of buffs, some changes barely making any difference (such as PTGWL, BBQ, Ruin (Ruin being not nerfed at all, only the speed of regress, it is now a tunnel prevention)). This will not only make kill-rate increased, but also lower the amount of stealthy survivors, because at the present time, it's virtually unimaginable to be stealthy survivor. All it did was establish another generation of flashlight Neas, and make some people leave.
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Holy crap, you think the DS nerf is absolutely vain? You are literally out of your mind, how the hell was DS after exit gates are open fun and fair for anyone at all?
You're clearly one of those people who abused the hell out of Spine Chill and DS all the time.
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Not sure if you played at that time, but sometime when the Hexy's tournament was estabilished, there was a bug with DS, when some killers got stunned, it gave them 3 seconds stun, instead of 5. It made DS absolutely useless, because Spirit outchased them immediately. Why is it being changed currently to something, that was fixed before?
I'm so saddened, that you are accusing me of abusing Spine Chill, while I have hearing issues. You can try playing the game without sound, or with 10-15%. I will see, who "abused" Spine Chill more.
Another fun fact is that I never used DS in my life in high MMR games. Thank you for your response.
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Bhvr should just delete spine chill, make it basekit but it lights up when you're in the killer's terror radius ... well at least until they make some proper visual indicators.
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all the strong slow down perks also got nerfed
They also got all indirectly buffed by the 12.5% increase to gen times.
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Fun fact: dbd mobile has a visual indicator for TR.
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Which doesn´t compensate the hard nerf to the whole slowdown meta.
If the aim was, that killers use less slowdown. Then i´d say mission accomplished.
But if the aim was to increase the kill rate...
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Can someone explain to me, why CoH is not getting touched? I don't get it.
Like, leave self-care as it is and make CoH provide everyone with self-care in its radius without the healing speed bonus. People have been asking for this since its release.
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Holy HELL YES. I was just annihilated as Killer by I think clearly a 4-man SWF that was hardcore genrushing and had Circle of Healing, they told me to cry about it. Get this: they popped all gens in FOUR MINUTES and were out of there by the 6th and final minute, crouchspamming and laughing their way to the gates.
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Because, apparently, CoH isn´t meta enough to get nerfed any further.
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Didn't they touch it already enough? It's not that strong anymore and it's way rarer than before (at least in my region)
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The only thing that will decrease is the survivor playerbase when this update goes live
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They nerfed twice since release and 3 times since PTB. But they literally did not address the problem it provides. It's basically a non-positional boon. A boon that does not care about where it is. It's completely busted and we've been talking about it for ages now. If you are interested, I believe the Lore Guy made a long video talking about it, but that was like 6 months after release. And we've been explaining these things for ages.
Like, hear me out. Since CoH is still here I suspect the devs wanted to make fast accessible healing easier for all survivors. Okay, makes sense. Ideally, they should counterbuff killers then, especially the ones that suffer from this boon (hit n run), they did not, but whatever. But now they nerfed self-care. It makes no sense to me. Also, they are buffing botany knowledge...??? Whaaat? I just don't get it. It'd be so nice to hear ######### is going on. Like what's the dev's philosophy on this.
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It's kinda funny because its never gonna be statistically meta.
if we are talking about SWF it's never going to be meta. Literally, 1 person needs to bring it out of four, so there it's 4 times less popular than other meta perks.
In solo it would be busted, but many solos randomly cleanse totems, so it's unreliable. Even tho it is extremely strong, I believe many people just don't bring it. so the pick rate is going to be also around 20-25%. But once it's up... holy crap. It's just a completely different game.
The worst thing is that I have a feeling you may be right. The devs showed us that they rely a lot more on statistics than any healthy game developer should. (latest Twins nerfs/buffs is a good example). Every time I see this I always think of Chris Wilson and his talks about how to be careful with data, cause its deceiving.
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the kkiller mains will stop compaining once each gen takes 5 minutes to complete... i mean we're getting there slowly.
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Exactly what I think. Survivors become a Meta-Perk for free, an 80sec-Borrowed Time thanks to Off the Record + Speed Boost, while Killer gets 2 Autostacks of Save the Best for Last.
WOW! IM SO IMPRESSED.
Playing Killer is so disgusting, u need Solo-Survivors to have a chance with an C-Tier Killer. When the Gen-Regression-Perks all dead too, this game will become 40% Kill Rates, nothing more.
It should have 60-70% Kill Rates, because u play against 4 guys, so u play most of the time against 14-16 Meta-Perks (+ 4x Basekit-Meta now). Killers should have 6 Perk Slots.
Thats why they want give killers extra-BP when there are no one in the queue-Line anymore.
Why should they? Getting bashed half the time and some hooks are gifted after all gens are done after 5mins because they want to do some altruistic.
Im really happy for the AFK-Matches incoming now. 5 AFK-Matches and then I will let everyone get out. I just count 2 hooks per Survivor at maximum anymore. I will no longer try to kill anyone.
EVERY KILLER SHOULD LET EVERY SURVIVOR OUT, MAYBE BHVR REALIZE THEN ITS MORE THAN KILLS FFS!!!
The Devs are destroying this game even more!
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Correct. Or, at least, this is how it worked way back. I haven't touched it in a long time.
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Listen closely, Behavior is telling you to stop tunnelling. It isn't fun and they want you to stop. That's why those changes were granted to survivors, not because Behavior wants survivors to be the power role, and not because Behavior are all survivor mains. Stop tunneling and this buff to survivors means nothing.
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DBD needs a change so that high MMR players can't loop as well as they can now. A "perfect" change would not affect low or medium skill players much. Know what we need?
Make survivors have the same collision size as the killer. That's the only change we need. This will make it so survivors cannot loop an object more than twice - pretty much ever before needing to throw a pallet. This will lead to shorter chases that will make generator completion times relevant.
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if you change that there would be no looping only press w
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"The nerf to Corrupt Intervention won't have an effect on your first chase. It works identical to the current version up until you put a survivor in the dying state. So how is the nerf going to allow 3 gens to be done in the first chase if a survivor is yet to go down?"
If you down the first survivor quickly and put them in either your corrupted area or near two generators that can be worked - you can camp them to stage two very quickly at very little risk. Right now this means the surviovrs MUST stop repairing and attempt a save or risk the game becoming 3v1 in the first two minutes.
Corrupt will vanish when people realize how weak the new version has become. You will use it on "buildup" killers - Hag, Trapper, Michael Myers and maybe Legion (because you just injure people and run away).
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No you would still loop but it wouldn't be able to grant you 30 extra seconds on a single tile and that's the point.
Low skill players are caught by a high skill player in about the minimum time to chase after recovery. Medium skill players might take +/- 10-20 seconds on either side of the chase. They might do something good or bad.
Meanwhile high MMR players can make a chase last +30 to +60 seconds. This completely breaks the game. This value needs to be completely destroyed to "standardize" chase length.
Nurse works - want to know why? Because she has fast chases. You can't really loop her unless you can break line of sight. If high MMR players go from +30-60 to +20-35 seconds DBD would be much better balanced.
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you don't understand the point though. The bigger volume of killers is intentional to make looping a strategy. The bigger volume takes longer to loop. if survivors and killers shared the same volume, there would be no point to ruinning a loop at all
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With Jolt and Overcharge buffs I don't think Slowdown was nerfed that hard tbh.
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Neither was meta.
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Are you kidding? They complain that survivors can run away from them! They'll never not complain...
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There was a guy on here before that said survivor should have a stamina bar, so yes, they do complain about them running too.
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No med kits and tool box change =(
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You know i dont tunnel but without tunneling you rarely get 4k unless you get potatoes against you.
So am i allowed to try to win?
Also can you stop abusing perks like DS / DH / BT to give me my endgame kills? Can you stop bodyblocking me to doors in RPD knowing fully well i cant pass when you have BT...
Survivors play dirty in this game too
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Can you stop tunneling gens if I've only gotten 1 or 2 hooks by the time there's one gen left? That's not fun at all, I barely even got to play the game
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I doubt it, they didn't nerf all perks I bet sloppy butcher+thanatophobia will be meta, it's already a cancer and effective build now imagine with the basekit buffs to all killers and longer gens, they even buffed thana
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Yikes I feel that. Yeah it's really rough.
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I really hate this, why does it always have to be a perfect 4-man escape with aggressive bodyblocking in less than 4 minutes??
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I dont mind if i win or lose but today 5/7 of my matches i got only few hooks. They did gens so fast i had no chance whatsoever and then i got RPD.. i hoooked a person and was going for another one but they kept bodyblocking me to the narrow corridors. I got pissed off and took my nice gloves off and tunneled down the BT blocker.
Is this what you want survivors? I want to have fun too and this for me isnt fun...nor is the fact i get matches where i feel like i have 0 chance whatsoever.
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The survivor mains will stop complaining once Survivors can hook Killers and when a purple flashlight, botany knowledge and self-care are basekit.
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I understand completely. If they were the same size it would make looping inefficient. You would never be able to run around an object 4 or 5 times. At most you could do 2.5x loops around certain paths and then be required to throw the pallet. That is the balance around which the game is designed. It is completely broken by players who loop frame perfect around objects.
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