Why can Survivors make infinite Boons?
I know it sounds like a rant-thread, but I seriously wonder about this. Where is the difference between Hexes and Boons, that Hexes can be created only one time at the beginning of the game and Boons an infinite amount of times?
- As a killer I can not decide where to place my Hex, on which totem. As a survivor I can decide where to place my Boon on which totem.
- As a killer my Hex only has 1 life and after cleansed it is broken (if you use no other perk for this). As a Survivor I have infinite lifes for my Boon and I don't even need a second perk for this.
- Yeah Hex Perks are very strong, but Boon: Circle of Healing is also VERY strong.
- And to top it all off, I as a killer cannot destroy the totem itself. I can not, never impeede, that a suvivor boons one of my totems, because I cannot destroy them. While survivors CAN impeede for example NOED (even though I dont play it) by destroying all my totems.
- Yeah I can destroy the boon (fast), but I also have to waiste my time to get to the Boon first, and Killer time is more valuable than the time of one suvivor that needs to Boon the totem.
I created this threat because in my last match a survivor booned totems over 10 times and the suvivors could constantly heal themself and others (faster) with this. Where is that balanced?
So yeah it sounds like a rant-thread, but for real, WHAT is the reason for this imbalance? IS there a good reason that survivors can use their totem-perks multiple times whereas killers can not?
Comments
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It's because the mechanics are designed with different intents.
Hexes are a little inconsistent because they've been around longer and the devs have had more time to experiment with more non-standard hex concepts, but the core idea is pretty simple- the killer gets a flat, mapwide buff that sharply increases their power somewhere relevant to their objective, and survivors are incentivised to go hunt down the totem and cleanse it to remove that pressing threat.
Boons, on the other hand, provide more limited-area buffs that aren't as directly tied to their objective (EG, a stealth boon or a healing boon, not a repair boon or an exit gate opening boon), and are designed with the intended effect being continual slowdown. The more survivors are relighting their boons, the more they aren't repairing generators and the more you'll be able to predict their location, at least in theory. Similarly, the fact that all the boons except CoH heavily incentivise being chased inside the radius means that the killer's always going to be in a position to snuff the boon mid-chase, bringing both players value; the killer gets to remove the buff for all survivors until its relit, gaining slowdown, and the survivor gets to escape the chase which is plenty of value on its own.
It's not actually that relevant to this topic that a lot of hexes are a bit weak, because it's about the overall mechanic, not specific perks- it's also not relevant that CoH is way too strong, for the same reason.
This concept does have a few holes, and there are some totem spots that weaken the intended effect for either side, but the core idea is pretty sound.
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If I was going to try and meet BHVR half way, I’m going to assume they thought that survivors could be “wasting time” booning totems and Killerw can snuff it out very quickly…so If you find it and snuff it before survivor got any value, then you’ve actually benefited. It is pretty loud and easy to notice and has a loud sound notification when created. Sadly in the current state of the game, it’s still time consuming detriment to Killers since your facing 4v1 and not 1v1v1v1v1 like BHVR wants you to think xD
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I can't really say it much better than this honestly - I think this is very well said.
When people complain about boons they are often and usually complaining about Circle of Healing, not boons themselves. If you change the core fundamentals of how a boon works (i.e. make it permanently removable), you're not just affecting CoH, you're affecting every boon that exists and every future boon they then make.
I think the more reasonable thing is to reduce the effectiveness of the Boons people have trouble with (nerfing CoH for example, which they've done in the past and may do so in the future), or inherently change some of their application. I understand, for example, the complaint that some Totem spawns are often very out of the way and difficult to snuff (A good example being the library totem in the RPD) and affect a large area because of verticality. If they had much less verticality, for example, at least then the survivor would ALSO have to make the trip there to get its affects.
Ultimately though, for as many games as Boons have helped the survivor, there have also been a large number of games where Boons have helped me as a killer because they're NOT doing generators and have to keep reapplying it each time.
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The concept behind them is that they have to be infinite it seems
Boons would be complete garbage if they were a one use with how loud they are
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Because boons as a whole are weak and barring COH requires the killer to be close to get value
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Because boons are poorly designed and need a rework to make them good but not stupid. Right now most boons are too oppressive or too weak (but bottlenecked in strength by being infinite) and they’re not fun to go against.
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If boons were limited use but stronger, i think they (ones that arent circle of healing) could actually be viable
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I'm guessing it's because boons take a hot second to place in the first place, as well as the fact that it takes the killer only 2 seconds to snuff a boon. Meanwhile the developers aren't going to implement an animation where the killer has to take 20 seconds to place their hex totem, and the survivor can just get rid of that hex totem in 2 seconds. It also put the survivor at risk if they decide to plus over a hex totem, because then the killer would know where that boon was, and the survivor gets their boon snuffed since the killer knows the placement.
This is just my take on it thou
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I totally understand the main point here, that not Boons themself are the problematic mechanic here and moreover CoH as one perk that uses the machanic. And seen as CoH is the most played Boon perk by far out there, I orientated myself at CoH as a Boon, not Boons in general. Because with CoH I think infinite Boons are broken, without CoH the machanic would not be broken. But still I think even with other Boon perks it is frustrating that you as a killer can not ever impeede that totems are booned, because the killer cannot destroy the totems.
So as it is right now the Boon mechanic is broken as long as CoH exists in that way, because I personally judge a mechanic on the way it is used most. Only because Boons are supposed to be used in a different way and CAN also be used in a different way and with different perks that doesn't change the way there are used at the moment. Which is with CoH in at least 90% of the cases.
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Boons do not function like hexes because they are boons and not hexes.
Boons have a 14-second channel to place + travel time.
Boons take 2 seconds to disable + travel time.
Boons have a limited range.
Boons emit a hymn that can be heard from very far away.
Hexes are on the map by default with no time investment.
Hexes take 14 seconds to destroy + travel and search time.
Hexes affect the whole map.
Hexes emit a faint sound in a small radius.
Have you maybe considered that in a match where survivors booned 10 times, they could have just done the gens a bare minimum of 140 seconds + 10 boons worth of travel time sooner while using an additional second chance instead?
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The killer can defend their hex. A survivor can't defend their boon.
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Hexes only become a threat if the match goes longer, except Haunted Grounds. Early Haunted Grounds can be devastating. As for myself, never in 3 years have i ever had a single down because of Haunted Grounds, unreal i know but its the cold truth, never got value from it. Old Ruin was great value because bad survivors hated skillchecks and they screwed good survivors because of it. That was the power of Old Ruin. Skillchecks didn't matter to good survivors but in a game where the chances of getting bad survivors is really high then Old Ruin was extremely valuable. I'd trade half of the current Slowdown Perks just to get old ruin back. Either i'd find bad survivors and slowdown good survivors or i'd get hits on people cleansing the totem. IN a sense Ruins Presence was the same as Old DS, no matter what you had to deal with it. Kinda of a bad thing but Old Ruin was still much easier to get rid of than DS.
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I'm... not certain I follow your point, sorry?
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As a killer I can not decide where to place my Hex, on which totem. As a survivor I can decide where to place my Boon on which totem.
That's a good thing, it varies but the best hexes work instantly from the start of the match. As demonstrated by inexperienced killers beelining straight to their hexes at the start of the match: the hex would only be easier to locate with your suggestion.
As a killer my Hex only has 1 life and after cleansed it is broken (if you use no other perk for this). As a Survivor I have infinite lifes for my Boon and I don't even need a second perk for this.
Yes but Boons require survivors to locate and then spend time blessing the totem, including every time it is snuffed. Time that could otherwise be spent on gens.
Yeah Hex Perks are very strong, but Boon: Circle of Healing is also VERY strong
True
And to top it all off, I as a killer cannot destroy the totem itself. I can not, never impeede, that a suvivor boons one of my totems, because I cannot destroy them. While survivors CAN impeede for example NOED (even though I dont play it) by destroying all my totems.
Actually I believe there's a dedicated perk where you can break totems now as killer. Not saying it's worth it in the slightest but, yea. And survivors destroying all totems before NOED activates means they have spent less time on gens so you're still getting very good value out of it (just from NOED existing even if it's not equipped).
I created this threat because in my last match a survivor booned totems over 10 times and the suvivors could constantly heal themself and others (faster) with this. Where is that balanced?
That's 2:30+ minutes of just blessing a totem, and that's presuming they also didn't bless any hex totems. Which is the equivalent of more than 2 solo gens being done. (This does not also include all the time they would have "wasted" running back to keep re-blessing the totem).
Also:
- A hexes power is map wide, a boons power is within 24 meters of it.
- The only boon worth running is CoH, maybe Shadowstep. But imagine if you couldn't re-bless totems? All boons would be not worth running, except again, maybe CoH.
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Hexes aren't much of a threat. They can be deactivated before they actually accomplish anything and then they are gone, they're threat level is minimal plus they require alot of conditions. Devour needs hooks, the time it takes to get enough hooks is plenty of time to just find it and break it before it ever becomes useful. Third Seal requires hitting all survivors for maximum effect but the effect is weak itself so it's not a Hex you'll run frequently or ever in manny players cases.
The topic at hand is why infinite boons and obviously we have to bring hexes into the discussion cause they are part of the totem mechanic. Boons are much stronger even if they area of effect is limited. There's potential for 4 people to use boons vs 1 guy using Hexes, Boons have infinite uses vs a Hex's single use (without Undying but Undying itself is a Hex so you're using 2 Hexes which have the same weakness...). You can choose where to place your Boon but Hexes are RNG.
Boons were a bad idea from the get go. It's the same thing with survivors everytime. Great rewards for minimal effort. Setting up a Boon might take some time innitially but unless the killer wastes time getting rid of it then the value the Boon provides is so much bigger that it makes the set up time irrelevant. The way CoH was implemented was a testament to this. EASY MAX REWARD for MINIMAL EFFORT. IT was not well thought out at all, as usual...As much as people want to deny it, Survivor is minimal effort for maximum results. E for safety without counterplay, old DS was obnixously op, og Mettle of Man was beyond bonkers, CoH is BONKERS, base BT will be bonkers.
Sure old Ruin was strong but it was only strong because majority of survivors would fail skillchecks and screw good survivors. Good survivors had no problems with old ruin itself, they had a problem with how Old Ruin was making bad survivors screw good survivors. And old Ruin still has the massive weakness of being a Hex so as much as Old Ruin was a "problem" it also wasn't because survivors could just as easily get rid of it. It was strong but with a massive weakness.
Same with any other Hex, strong, some not all, but all had the same massive weakness. Boons don't have a weakness, the potential rewards are worth the set up time and killers will need to deal with Boons as soon as possible.
As strong as Devour Hope can be it can also just not happen. Bad Map, bad RNG and poof 0 Devour value. The ability to choose where boons get placed is a such a gigantic benefit in of itself compared to Hexes, that using them multiple times is just beyond broken. and killers have no way to isolate that area of the map either so hitting a survivor and granting them their speed burst will allow them to reach that part of the Map.
Too much benefits for minimal effort.
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A lot of this boils down to thinking that hexes are weak, which, while a statement I agree with, isn't actually relevant.
Even if it were, the solution has nothing to do with boons, the solution is to buff hexes.
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They aren't weak, most of them, but they have a gigantic weakness compared to Boons. So much so we have an entire Hex dedicated to take the place of another Hex. Boons don't have that weakness. You don't need to Boon a Totem to protect another Boon. Up to 4 people can get value of a boon even if it's not the person that set it up. That alone means massive gains for survivors. If Boons only affected the person that set it up then setting up boons would be a commitment on the level of using a Hex and in that case then i'd understand allowing Boons to be set up infinitly. Any survivor could bring the killer to where you set up your boon and then the killer can destroy the boon and you get 0 value of it because of the actions of another survivor. Boons being personal instead of aoe could be a good solution. At least it would force multiple boons to be set up instead of 1 Boon being as strong and as valuable.
Hexes don't need buffs, as in making them stronger. The only buff Hexes need is better Map design with well thought spawns. Or At the very least guarantee that Hexes spawn near killer instead of near Survivors, then at the very least Killers could have a way to protect their Totem before it's destroyed in early game. The way current Hexes are, in terms of power, nothing is as annoying as Old Ruin so having Hexes spawn near killer everytime wouldn't be so harmful to survivors plus killers has to venture out in the map anyway so there will be plenty of opportunities to find the HEx and destroy it before it can become very incovenient.
My main gripe is everything is done as an afterthought, why so much time with the same problems? Why so manny years and barely anyone is worried about Map design? I see and hear so few people talk about it. The focus is always on Perks Perks Perks and SoloQ and Survivor vs Killer when killer vs killer is HELL BECAUSE OF NURSE EXISTING. Killswitch Nurse Forever and the game gets 10x better. Sucks for Nurse enjoyers but let other killers have a chance...Map design screws M1 killers, maps are too big, too safe because loops have to occupy the big space, gens are miles away so Perks like Jolt get alot less value, Ruin gets less value cause it's harder to chase survivors away from gens on top of being a Hex and on top of the horrible spawns. Wanna fix Maps and Rebalance the game? Start by getting rid of Nurse, without Nurse's riddiculous TP Maps can be smaller and killers that lack mobility won't suffer as much, with less ground to cover then you can start balancing Perks and by having no Nurse you can make good Perks cause theres no OP Broken killer to make good Perks be broken Perks.
This is the issue with DbD: lack of foresight, everything is an afterthought. Them not expecting the game to grow as big and popular is a riddiculous excuse as to why the game is so messed up at it's core. The game should be the best it can be regardless of being popular or not.
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According to Mathew, boons don't affect core mechanics of the game same as hexes,, let's take a look,, scratch marks are core mechanics but we got shadowstep, Healing yourself without medkit or self care wasn't possible until COH, picking yourself up from ground without UB or no mither wasn't an option but all it takes is one person bringing a boon,, their reasoning was Bad, I don't mind the boons that much after circle was rightfully nerfed but they affect core mechanics even more than hexes as they are allowed to be placed countless times as long as there's a dull
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Trust me, you don't want to look for the best totem spot at the start of trial to light your totem if you use Ruin ...
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I feel boons are okay in general except some boon locations force the killer to go WELL out of his way to get to (like 2nd story of buildings)...then the survivor just sets it up again giving their team a wide area safety zone.
Boons in general do tend to cause a lot of constant backtacking for killers which is annoying.
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Add token to boons, like 3 tokens max which means you can only bless a totem 3 times during a match. Or make it 5 times, I don't know, whatever is best.
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