If You Want Less Tunnelers, Add A Reason Not To Tunnel
I honestly don't think adding more perks or more ways for SURVIVORS to avoid tunneling is going to change anything. The biggest reason WHY tunneling is usually happening and the main priority for killers? There's literally no incentive to actually going for multiple hooks on multiple people.
There's no reason to, unless the team is quite clearly very bad and you can get away with it, all you're doing is wasting time and getting your gens blasted through if you're trying to go for hooks. It just doesn't work against good players.
If you want killers to tunnel less, add an actual reason for them to go for hooks on someone else. Why would I waste time to go for that full HP Nea who has zero hooks, if I can just go for the Feng who just got off the hook and is vulnerable. Why would I waste time for something that won't give me an advantage, if I can quickly get someone completely out of the game and will actually help me get some pressure.
It's less about tunneling being too strong and more about the fact that going for multiple hooks is too weak of a strat and just doesn't work. And this is coming from a guy that mostly plays terrible killers and still goes for hooks a majority of the time, or at least will full on leave hooks and try not to tunnel as much as possible. But if I feel like winning some day? I have to tunnel. Not because I want to, but it's because I HAVE to if I want to stay competitive and try to win, without getting completely washed.
Comments
-
Maps are biggest problem. Most of maps are ultra-safe. Safe maps = long chases for most killers. And long chases makes gens fly.
This upcoming update is good step to balance game but maps needs to look too.
20 -
The main problem about tunneling is that either the killer's new or they had enough with survivors that bully in the game to make the killer so pissed off.
If you are playing as survivors and then you see the killer tunneling then use a flashlight save.
1 -
This is one of the things that BBQ did a great job at encouraging with the BP reward, and something that other perks like No Way Out accomplishes and Grim Embrace tries (but fails) to accomplish.
So my first thought is just continuing to tie powerful effects behind one-token-per-unique-survivor-hooked perk effects.
The other thought is that I think the basekit BT change is going to do a lot to not necessarily discourage tunneling but to make tunneling more fair for the survivor - by giving the survivor more tools to help them get a better chance at escaping in case the killer fixates right back onto them, there's less room to consider it an invalid strategy on the killer's part.
While survivors might want to make camping and tunneling literally impossible, the healthier approach imo is to just make both practices about the same as starting a fresh chase.
8 -
Multiple Factors.
- Maps being too large.
- Many killers being far too weak/having no map pressure (looking at you myers, trickster, etc.)
- Rude survivor etiquette (tbagging, excessive flashlight clicking) often tilts killer players into tunneling purely for revenge.
13 -
But see that's my problem, I don't think tunneling is a thing you should put in the hands of the survivor to solve, it is their issue in terms of they have to deal with it, but it's also not THEIR issue, you get me?
Making tunneling worse, will just leave killers with NO good strat. Perks with tokens clearly didn't work as going for multiple hooks was still bad. Unless they start reworking token perks into having MUCH better rewards as compared to now, then yea maybe. But how long will we have to wait for that? It already took them years to solve dead hard.
2 -
It would be nice, for example, if after hooking a survivor who was not unhooked for 30 seconds, then all genes were blocked for 15 - 20 seconds, or the actions of the survivors were slowed down by 50% for 15-20 seconds. And it should be in the basic kit!
0 -
You don't neccesary need to super tunnel one out to win game but you don't either have to go for hooking everyone twice or something before killing. Something between can work very well and actually even better than straight out tunneling one at start. Going for multiple hooks allows you to also find who is weakest link and you can take target him more than others.
1 -
They actively TOOK AWAY a reason for killers not to tunnel by removing the tokens from BBQ & Chili.
Perks like Grim Embrace completely miss the point that hooking each survivor once can take a REALLY long time to do, between the size of maps, the ability of survivors to hide, all the gen work going on while a killer is trying to find a new chase, and the sheer length of time it takes to down any one survivor, much less all four. The point of BBQ was that it gave you a great reward after the game was over, so it didn't matter that it took you 80% of the game to get to it.
No Way Out gives you an end-of-game bonus, but one that typically means maybe 1 or 2 extra hooks. Usually, it's just a little bit more time to use NOED (which has been nerfed and will now be much easier for survivors to take down without having to spend time on totems during the gen phase of the game). It certainly has uses, but even if you don't get all 4, you're still getting some bonus, which makes it less critical to disrupt the normal flow of the game.
Grim Embrace, on the other hand, is a complete failure. In balanced matches, you typically don't get a hook on each survivor until there are 2 or often even 1 gen left. At that point, blocking progress for a brief while isn't actually stealing that much time from the survivor team. AND you get nothing if you can't get all four before the last gen pops, which is flat out worse than NWO or (old) BBQ. The perk ought to block all progress for a length of time each time a new survivor gets hooked, and increase that length of time with each token, until the 4th one blocks gens (usually the last one anyway) for a much longer period.
But really, what the main issue is: there should be a REASON not to try to drive a single survivor out of the game as quickly as possible. And what that comes down to is: survivors who have been hooked, should not be as efficient as ones who haven't. A survivor who has been hooked should repair gens WAY slower than untouched survivors. That encourages killers to track down and one-hook each survivor as their absolute top priority.
2 -
For example, the new Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain motivate the killer at the beginning of the match to hook all the survivors on the hook once as quickly as possible. After all, he has a good passive ability. If the Survivor has ever hooked on the Scourge Hook, they suffer an action penalty while wounded until they are healed. We need more of these perks.
0 -
BHVR gave survivors base kit BT, that's a reason...
Idk if that's enough to incentivize killers to bail on a camp/tunnel strat though. Map design is a huge problem for almost all killers. Instead of addressing map balance they are giving out band aids in the form of perks and new killers all of some form of teleport. Map balance is more important than perks.
that being said, i'm looking forward to seeing the changes. a lot of needed changes in favor of the killer side. we'll see if it's enough to make playing killer to win any less sweaty.
0 -
Hiding in a locker all game would be too strong. So can you do that? No because they added an in game mechanic to make it a bad idea. Should do the same for tunneling and camping, this isn't complicated.
0 -
Instead of 10 more seconds per gen they should have made hook states slow that survivor's gen speeds. That outright encourages the killer to spread hook states.
As you said right now tunelling is pretty much ALWAYS the best thing killers can do, even with DS and BT in the game.
2 -
I had a concept for that. The problem is that hooks dont affect the teams ability until the point the first person is out. So, instead:, the first time a survivor is hooked, he get a gen speed malus, the secend time a smaller one, and the 3rd time the remaining survivors get a bonus out of his dead. That way, there is an incentive to spread hooks.
0 -
But like I said with the other guy, tunneling isn't a problem that the survivors need to solve. It's not gonna change with giving them things to combat it. All you're doing is making the only viable strat killers have worse, which then leaves them with nothing to which killer just becomes garbage and useless to play which it already practically feels like now.
Yes but making tunneling useless doesn't change anything. You've now just removed the only viable strat killers had to stay competitive. The issue isn't tunneling is too strong, the issue is that everything else is too weak.
1 -
Perks with tokens clearly didn't work? BBQ was the most-used perk by killers, and No Way Out is crazy effective! The trick is that these perks are only effective if they aid you in the lategame or postgame, as there's a built-in acknowledgement that you're not likely to get value out of it otherwise. It's more accurate to say that they have a relatively narrow range of application, since I think with this exact update hitting the PTB there's an implicit acknowledgement that perks can't really be expected to maintain the game's health (see Pop Goes the Weasel being a stellar incentive to leave hooks, but answers to Pop led to a decrease in usage and the incentive became less common)
And tunneling is absolutely the survivor's problem to solve - the killer is supposed to chase survivors. Useful obsession-based or token-based perks may shape their mental arithmetic on who to chase, but otherwise it'll usually default to "whoever's closest" or in some cases "whoever is most annoying to me". Survivors have a ton of resources available to interfere with tunneling - perks, bodyblocking, harassing pickups, and even just taking full advantage of being left unpressured to breeze through uncontested gens. Introducing a basekit reason for killers to need to perform some kind of enforced round robin ordering of hooking would be a lot similar to forcing survivors to repair specific generators in a certain order. You might need to apply some forethought to avoiding a 3-gen (or in the killer's case, avoid DS and other anti-tunneling measures) but over-engineering a solution could become tedious and lead to a lot more 'bad behavior' than you started with.
It's much better to respect the incentives the game's basic win conditions have cemented and work to make it mutually enjoyable - which means fairer, not more technical.
1 -
If you want killers to tunnel less, add an actual reason for them to go for hooks on someone else.
But DS, OTR and BT ARE reasons to go for someone else.
It's less about tunneling being too strong and more about the fact that going for multiple hooks is too weak of a strat and just doesn't work.
No, it's not, and I'm tired of this argument being tossed around the forums to advocate for some hefty survivor nerfs. Even if killers were at a consistent 4K rate, with 100% 4K chance, it'd STILL be better for the killers to tunnel, camp and slug. You can keep nerfing survivors, but every nerf you slap on them is going to make those three strats stronger.
You know how the gap between solo and swiffer is so big that it makes balancing impossible? The same goes for 12-hooking versus tunnel/camp/slug. You can't nerf killers to account for solos without massively boosting swiffers. Similarly, you can't nerf survivors to account for 12-hooking without massively boosting T/C/S.
T/C/S simply have to go. They have to be nerfed down to match 12-hooking, much like solo needs to be brought up to swiffer, and then you can take those two balance levels and even them out.
None of this 'nerf the survivors down to knives but let killers keep their guns on the promise they'll use them less'.
6 -
Literally where am I advocating for survivors nerfs???? I'm literally asking for killer buffs, hello? It's like you didn't even read.
DS, OTR, AND BT are not GOOD reasons to go for someone else. Killing the camping / tunneling strat does not make going for someone else suddenly better. All it does is kill the only viable strat killers have to stay competitive. Tunneling is not an issue for survivors to solve with perks and base kit changes. It's literally the fact that going for multiple people is a disadvantage across the board. There are literally ZERO positives to going for multiple hooks on multiple people, outside of token perks and even then, the effects of the token perks aren't even good enough to WARRANT going for someone else.
0 -
Yep, thats the mains problem with the game. They keep making big maps for some reason, instead of making and cutting em down like coal tower / wreckers yard size.
And then maps like the game with 40 pallets, which most of them safe and god pallets.
The new map literally is a pallet heaven aswell, a pain for m1 killers; and not to talk about the main building.
Killer mains expect to be genrushed now since corrupt is kinda gone, pop is dead, ruin is 'ruined' and others. Yes for low level this update is good, but for mid/high level players, playing killer will be a pain. (that's why they even added bp bonus to matchmaking since will be less killers. 100%)
1 -
Nerfing survivors and buffing killers have practically identical outcomes.
Killing the camping / tunneling strat does not make going for someone else suddenly better.
No, but that's not the point.
There are literally ZERO positives to going for multiple hooks on multiple people
But here's the thing: Even if you had a 100% success rate with 12-hooking, it'd still be MORE efficient and effective to tunnel, camp and slug. Those three strats break the fundamental bases of the game, and they will continue to do so until they are burdened with so many countermeasures that they are no longer the better option.
3 -
There is a subset of players who only want to ruin other players game experiences. These exist in survivor and killer. This subset of toxic players was unintentionally given some of the best tools to completely ruin other players game experiences, in fact, they can stop players from playing the game.
Face-camping and tunneling at gen 5, is a god-send to toxic players. No amount of anti-face-camping and anti-tunneling incentives will ever stop these people from doing it.
There's another thread where a new survivor player was camped in all 5 of the first games he played. After which he uninstalled. It's not healthy for the game and it has become very widespread.
5 -
Well, with BBQ nerf we have less reasons to not tunnel...
2 -
They could add a million reasons and you would still tunnel as long as that playstyle remains available.
2 -
Not true. Most of killer's tunnel because survivor objective are way faster than killer's objective. Killer's are punished for hooking survivors. Time to enter a chase, time to down a survivor, time to go to a hook = 1/2 gens at least if you play against decent team.
And then what killer's get for that hook? Nothing, especially when they nerfed pop to the ground, and scourge hooks arent even reliable since they can be on the other side of the map; plus now they nerfed the pain resonance, killer's can't even know at which gen to go.
3 -
If someone run new OTR + DS you can still tunnel him hard but you're gonna lose a lot of time and probably lose the game, you can counter these perks easily by going for someone else.. it's already highly encouraged.
They're probably buffing thanatophobia for the same reason it's a good perk only if you try to injure everyone
2 -
Making tunneling worse doesn't suddenly make going for other people good. All you do is kill the only viable strat killers have.
2 -
So why is it that a lot of the camping happens while 5 gens remain up? Huh?
What say you about that one? Because it happens often.
If I told a child they can have one of the bags of candy on the table, and one of them is full and the other has like 5, which one do you think they are going to pick? Like, it's not that complicated. The devs should never design a mechanic based around the attitude you are going to have during that match. That is bad design, plain and simple.
8 -
Right, i agree with you. my initial comment was sarcastic. More killers are tunnel/camping b/c that's the best way to get kills. I'm actually not happy that survivors get base BT now. I normally play mostly survivor right now b/c killer just sucks to play. Honestly i think base kit BT will encourage more unsafe saves by survivors which can very quickly result in more tunneling. But we'll see, i mean, lowered cooldowns on basic killer actions and 10 seconds more gen speed is going to help. I'll try killer again once this patch launches.
0 -
I don't really care tbh I think it's healthy for the game to give strong counters against tunneling, I avoid it as much as possible unless I play against a super toxic teabagger or something, I play killers that can teleport like dredge just to leave the hook quickly, some perks even synergize with that playstyle like make your choice and BBQ,
I'm sorry when I play surv I hate going against cringy sweatlords that tunnel 1 guy for the whole game, especially blights and spirits it's just disgusting
0 -
Or make hooking different survivors more efficient than hooking an unhooked survivor.
0 -
This is exactly what I was about to post. It really baffles me that people think killers will magically stop camping/tunneling if the devs added a few reasons not to do it. As long as it's in the game people are gonna do it and it's only going to get worse after the upcoming update...
6 -
Killers should have the right to tunnel without being ashamed, atleast block all gens temporarily for 10 secs (or basekit dissolution) if the killer hits the unhooker, nerfed DS was a good move lets hope the speed of breaking gets stacked witj brutal strentght
0 -
Maps are also way to big and gen spread isn't ideal. Add in strong loops or too many god pallets and there just isn't enough time to 12 hook a decent team of surviors even if they are all solo.
Dead hard acts as a third health state when used as to avoid a hit or get to a window or pallet so it's twisting killers arms. They lose VALUABLE time due to the perk and that's why many killers camp and tunnel as well.
Another reason is because they are angry from last match or this match and want to bm. Another reason is be6they don't know any better because they don't actually have the training with players who are ACTUALLY their skill level. Due to sbmm killers are far fewer than before so we have newer killers facing more experienced survivors who know how to loop or dead hard or even hide better.
Killers camp and tunnel because they're playing a stressful role and that won't change unless the devs make survivor the stressful role which I don't recommend in the slightest.
Like imagine how the moment you got hooked you were dead (1 hook state per survivor), imagine not being able to instantly throw a pallet but it takes longer and the killer can have a higher chance of hitting you because of it. Imagine if maps were tiny and all 7 gens were easily accessible.
How stressful would the game be for the other side? A lot of people would leave or hold the game hostage by hiding. My point in this is that one role is very chill due to surviors being able to have downtime by working on gens since they are on a team and the other is stressed because it's only them.
Idk why I wrote so much I just did.
3 -
Can u send the link?
0 -
Aka the Myers the camped me at 5 gens even in a 3v1 screenshoot lmao
1 -
I have seen plenty of killers tunnel from the get-go without anyone being toxic towards them or being "bullied". Some people are just utterly childish and take out everything bad that has happened to them out on others in a video game.
To your point of using a flashlight save, there are many that have blinders on, and regardless of what you do they will tunnel no matter what.
0 -
What u just said makes absolutely no sense. How come there is no incentive for the killer to go after someone else? I mean, getting more than a single kill is the reason why I always try to get as many hooks as possible.
They are adding countermeasures to prevent tunneling because it happens way more often in low mmrs and being a less skillful branch of the game I honestly think it is ok.
0 -
I hate to break it to ya bud, but if thats ur only strat to secure a measly kill, ur doing something wrong.
4 -
I don't think he's talking about securing a measly kill
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Not really, I don’t mind eating a DS or whatever endurance. Then the survivor is vulnerable and I am free to hook him again.
Going after another survivor who has never been hooked is a waste a time because you need more hooks in total to win. The fastest you kill a survivor (even if you need to eat BT / DS / new OTR) the easiest it is to win, especially in end game to defend gens or simply slug in 1vs3 (or less).
0 -
If u think that kinda strat works in high mmrs ur game sense is off
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Killers should not be shamed about tunneling but not either encourage them to do that. Other tactics should be made more viable and ds in fact needs to be basekit.
0 -
The amount of killers tunneling would severely diminish. It would literally become a thing that only bad killers or at least only toxic killers who do it for the purpose of tilting survivors, they would be the only ones doing it. GOOD killers would actually have a reason to not tunnel unlike now where that's literally the only option if you want to win / stay competitive.
0 -
You guys can say it happens often but it literally doesn't. If you genuinely believe there are that many killers who literally camp and tunnel just for the purpose of tilting survivors and being annoying, compared to the amount who just play the game naturally, then you are delusional to believe that.
1 -
No amount of "reasons not to tunnel" will stop a salty killer from choosing to tunnel a toxic survivor.
You'll need more than a carrot on a stick
1 -
Again, that's an outlier. Tunneling and camping will literally NEVER be completely gone, same way teabagging and flash clicky survivors will never be gone. It's literally just how it is.
The thing is the game doesn't force survivors to teabag or flashy click to be competitive. Tunneling is quite literally the only way for a killer to win consistently or to stay competitive. Whether they want to or not.
0 -
I seriously doubt that.
1 -
It would. It's a basic fact. Killers tunnel often because there's zero positives for going for multiple people and it only wastes time (toxic killers are literal outliers). If you give them incentives and a reason to actually go for multiple people, then they would clearly start to play that way more often.
You guys act like tunneling is fun, bro most killers don't even like it. I constantly see good killers complain about how they HAVE to tunnel to get value, because it's just how it is and how BHVR has designed it. Tunneling isn't fun for neither killers or survivors. It's boring asf. But it's the only way to stay competitive. If you make other strats better, tunneling becomes less of a necessity.
1 -
Killers will still do it no matter what. Killers aren't going to magically stop because the devs give them a few reasons not to. The only thing that will help is if the devs somehow nerf camping/tunneling so it's no longer worth it. I doubt that'll happen.
0 -
As delusional as it is to believe that they wouldn't tunnel if the playstyle stayed untouched. Please
0 -
Yes... the killers that do tunnel for the sole purpose of tunneling to be toxic... those are outliers.
Because those are outliers. Those who literally tunnel for purpose of tilting survivors are outliers. You literally cannot compare them to the amount of killers that just play naturally.
There will ALWAYS be killers who camp and tunnel, that will literally never go away. Same way that there will always be survivors who constantly flashy clicky or teabag. It will always be a thing.
0
