This New Update is bringing something scary and it isn't what you think.
Even in 6.0.2 there's a thing that's scaring me to death as Killer, but in this next update its only gonna get worse.
Self Healing.
Its funny honestly, seeing 4 Flashlights is the best thing in the world to me, but if I see 4 Medkits I get genuinely worried.
This New Update is gonna make Green Medkits insane, simply by just buffing Botany Knowledge. When this new update hits, there will be no reason to not run Botany.. free extra 50% healing for no requirements? Sure give it here. Why bring CoH when I can get the same speed on me at all times?
Selfcare + Botany will provide more efficient healing than getting a teammate to do it.
Normal Heal = 16 Seconds
Selfcare + Botany = 18.8 Seconds
You're gonna heal 2.8 seconds slower, but it'll no longer be 2 people distracted.. thats worth it.. and its scary, plus we're not even adding in Green Medkits into this..
Self Healing needs to be capped, it shouldn't be faster than getting a teammate to do it.
Comments
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The new update is bringing me becoming a Nurse-only-player.
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I'd rather have 4 Botanies than 1 CoH.
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Your numbers are WAY off. Self Care + Botany Knowledge will take around 30 seconds to heal, not 18.
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Do you care to show your math? Tbh i had an awful math teacher so i would like to know if im wrong.
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It's not as scary as you think, and here's the maths as to why:
Self-Care is being nerfed in the next patch to heal at 35% heal speed at tier 3, while Botany Knowledge is being buffed to 50% bonus healing speed. To calculate the healing speed with both perks in play, we use this formula:
Healing Charges / (Individual Heal speed * (1 + Botany Knowledge bonus))
Therefore, if we plug in the numbers:
16 Charges / (0.35 charges in * (1 + 0.5)) = 16 / (0.35 * (1.5)) = 16 / 0.525 = 30.47619047619047619047619047619 = 30.48 seconds
It will take ~30.48 seconds to heal with Self-Care and Botany Knowledge next patch, not 18.8 seconds.
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16 c / (0.35 * 1.5 * 1 c/s )= 30.48 s
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Hmm.. tbf im using actual math and not BHVR math so i guess i shouldn't be surprised i'm wrong.
Green Medkits are still gonna be terrifying.
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How are these numbers calculated. If the percentages are added together, it would be 18.4 seconds.
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Yeah I calculated with percentages too so now I'm confused on whats happening.
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I assume this is how you calculated it...
- Self Care = 35%
- Botany Knowledge = 50%
So add those both together and you get 85% healing speed or a 15% decrease in healing, which is 2.4 extra seconds. Add 2.4 + 16 (Regular healing speed) and you get 18.4.
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Just look at @GoodBoyKaru's reply.
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Basically BHVR maths and regular maths had a falling out
If it's any consolation I have to look up how to do the calculations each time.
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Yeah that's exactly how i did it, but BHVR doesn't like normal math for some reason.
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So, how is it calculated?
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Scroll up
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Edit**
Oh wow I definitely just did a game and self care botany is 24s so the comment below is correct which is kinda amusing because that means they heavily nerfed Self-Care across the board, plus nerfed med-kit efficiency builds.
So the only thing benefitting from new botany is altruistic healing speed and med-kit self-heal speed(but med-kit efficiency is getting ditched)
Post edited by Panduh on1 -
tl;dr Botany Knowledge gives you 50% of 35%, not a flat 50% added to the 35%.
So your healing speed is 52.5%, not 85%.
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Thank you @GoodBoyKaru
However, I am not understanding this math. If that formula is correct, then it should work both ways, which it doesn't.
16 Charges / (0.35 charges in * (1 + 0.5)) = 16 / (0.35 * (1.5)) = 16 / 0.525 = 30.47619047619047619047619047619 = 30.48 seconds
16 Charges / (0.5 charges * (1 + 0.35)) = 16 / (0.5 * (1.35)) = 16 / 0.675 = 23.70 seconds
Also
16 Charges / (1 + 0.35) = 11.85 seconds for a Self Care.
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Not quite.
16 Charges / (0.5 charges * (1 + 0.35)) = 16 / (0.5 * (1.35)) = 16 / 0.675 = 23.70 seconds
This doesn't work because you're taking the base speed and the bonuses and flipping them, which breaks the formula. If we were using
0.5 charges * 1 + 0.35 vs 0.35 charges in * 1 + 0.5
Then everything would be fine, but we aren't. The parenthesis make all the difference here because they change the fundamental way you perform the operations, giving us different numbers.
If we were to explain it using algebra, the formula used would be:
t / (h * (1 + (b)))
Where t = Total healing speed; h = individual healing speed; and b = botany knowledge bonus. Suddenly flipping h and b around in that formula makes it a completely different formula.
16 Charges / (1 + 0.35) = 11.85 seconds for a Self Care.
This formula is also wrong. If we're being specific, the actual formula is:
Healing Charges / (Individual Heal speed * (1 + (Additive healing speed bonus)))
So, we plug in the numbers
16 / (0.35 * (1+0))
Because there are no bonuses. Work that one through:
16 / (0.35 * (1)) = 16 / 0.35 = 45.714285714285714285714285714286 = 45.71 seconds.
Where you went wrong with this one is that you assumed we were adding the 1 and not multiplying the 1.
Hope this helps!
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Don't forget Injured + Pharmacy + Appraisal = 6 Geen Medkits
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RRrrrreeeeaaahhh!
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Provided nobody else opens a chest, and if you're combining Pharmacy + Appraisal + Botany Knowledge then that means you aren't stacking up Sprint Burst + Off The Record + Borrowed Time + COH, which I'd call a win overall
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You're right. But, they're getting plenty of Green Medkits for the 3 other survivors who are stacking Sprint Burst + Off The Record + Borrowed Time, and those 3 no longer need to run CoH
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Honestly 6 heals between them compared to, you know, infinite sounds much better. And in solo queue this strategy has 0 chances of working, so you essentially need to be in a 4man SWF who actually gaf about winning. And even then, you'd be more of an asset to the team if you just did gens injured and healed when you had a moment spare between people rather than have someone run around injured opening chests for a couple minutes.
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The math isn't complicated.
Base heal is 16s. Self care efficiency is 35%.
16/0.35= 45.7.
Doing something 50% faster is the same as dividing it by 1.5, just like doing something 100% faster is the same as dividing something by 2.
45.7/1.5=30.47.
It's 30.5 seconds roughly, a little less with skillchecks.
The only thing I'm bummed about is that CoH self healing was left unchanged while Self Care was gutted. I have absolutely zero issue with Self Care as someone who plays mainly killer. But CoH I do.
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Super simplified version for ppl that arent into maths.... the perks count as seperate operations. So you get the 35% speed from SC, then that new number gets a 50% buff from Botany. Karus math is correct, but it seems overwhelming if youre not used to the numbers. Hopefully this clears up some confusion.
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Sorry I thought you were GeneralV.
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I wish I was smart enough to understand a word you just said
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Self care even with new Botany has been nerfed into the ground ✨
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And I'd just started running a self care build :(
What about with Desperate Measures and Resilience on top?
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Flanklin's Meta haha
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I hope they fix these endurance things...
I think it will feel horrible to constantly hit survs who get white then.
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The scary thing will be CoH + Botany.
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Okay so, this may look challenging but I promise it isn't and I'll break down the final answers.
formula
The formula we use is this below:
Overall action speed = Total Charges / ((1 * (1 * ((1 - individual penalty) * (1 - individual penalty)) * (1 + (total additive action speed bonuses))
With this formula, we first calculate in any negative effects (those that slow down the action) before then calculating in any bonuses to get the overall action speed.
Now, the unique challenge presented here is that Desperate Measures has 4 different levels of power (14%, 28%, 42%, 56%) but don't worry, I've calculated them all in individually.
Therefore, for this specific calculation, we'll be using this one here:
Overall action speed = 16 / ((1 * (1 * (1 - 0.65) * (1 - 0))) * (1 + (1 * (0.5 + 0.09 + [DESPERATE MEASURES]))))
We can already simplify this formula into the following:
Overall action speed = 16 / ((1 * (0.35)) * (1 + (1 * (0.5 + 0.09 + [DESPERATE MEASURES]))))
I'll be showing my workings on my notepad document because it's far simpler for me to read and it makes sure there's no errors transcribing the notes.
calculations
1 injured
2 injured
3 injured
4 injured
overall conclusion
Using the perk combination Botany Knowledge, Resilience, and Desperate Measures, you can quite substantially increase your self-heal speed from the 45.71 seconds it would take you to heal with just Self-Care.
With 1 person injured, your self-heal time is 26.42 seconds.
With 2 people injured, your self-heal time is 24.45 seconds.
With 3 people injured, your self-heal time is 22.74 seconds.
With 4 people injured, your self-heal time is 21.26 seconds.
I hope this answers your question.
TL;DR - it's always slower.
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Buffs are additive, debuffs are multiplicative.
All the calculations being done here only work if self-care is the only healing debuff running.
With Botany Knowledge (50%) and 1 stack Desperate Measures (14%), your healing speed is 1+0.5+0.14 = 1.64 charges per second. To translate this into seconds, divide 16 by your healing speed: 16/1.64 = 9.8 seconds.
But after you add buffs, you multiply debuffs. So with self-care, your healing speed is (1+0.5+0.14)*(0.35) = 0.574 charges per second, making a 27.9 second heal.
Add on Sloppy Butcher, your healing speed is (1+0.5+0.14)*(0.35)*(0.8) = 0.4592 charges per second, making a 34.8 second heal.
Self-Care, Botany Knowledge, 1 stack Desperate Measures, Resilience = (1+0.5+0.14+0.09)*(0.35) = 0.6055 charges per second = 26.4 second heal
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4 gens are done and someone is already sacrificed but hey fourth medkit!
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I can guarantee that we’ll see a increase in Franklins Demise once 6.1.0 goes live with how prevalent medkits are going to be
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I mean, current BK with an Emergency Med-Kit and Gel Dressings gives you almost 3 full health states. After the patch it will make you heal faster but it will also only last for 2 heals.
You'll need to take an extra Perk slot for more charges now (Built to Last or Streetwise) as Botany won't be a 2 in 1 Perk for Med-Kits anymore.
Edit: Still doesn't mean that Emergency Med-Kits or Med-Kits in general don't need to get nerfed.
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Funny.What is even the normal base speed for healing without those perks?Seems like no boost at all if based off percents.
This would be closer to a correct answer.
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Wow, you put a lot of time into that, thank you very much!
Looks they really did butcher self care, that sucks... I might have to look into a more efficient healing build.
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Definitely a change that makes me quite sad. I love to run SC+Botany, seemed like a fair trade. You get an unlimited heal a touch slower than a medkit at the cost of two perk slots. It didn't feel broken, and Botany made me useful to teammates or finding or bringing a nice yellow medkit.
That playstyle just completely gutted timewise, especially when you factor in mangled and hemorrhaging. I guess I have room for an exhaustion perk instead now? Like what options are left for me except more meta perks when I was so happy with decent non-meta combos.
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Bruh this update is better for killers.
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It seems so. Thats it. But if u look close, its not.
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Besides the OTR and endurance stacking issues it is better for Killers
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Not sure why you're calling it 'BHVR maths' when using dynamic action speed and constant charges is probably one of the best design choices they made in the whole game.
Simple example: if thana affected directly the total time required to complete a gen, the progression bar, while repairing a gen, would jump up and down as survivors got injured and healed up. Or, how would dying light even work if the obsession + someone else were repairing the same generator?
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I just don't get why progression bonuses aren't subject to diminishing marginal returns as well.
Like I completely understand why negative bonuses are stacked multiplicatively but surely positive bonuses could also receive some form of diminishing marginal effect.
And I call it BHVR maths because nobody seems to know that it's different. It's not common knowledge, so people will try and calculate based on percentages and not the action speed formula that's used.
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I guess that's because to counter a negative bonus you'd require a way higher positive one just to even it out (-20% -> + 25% = 1) if it was all multiplicative, but that's just an assumption
And fair point, the amount of times I still see people calculating thana as 80*1.xx is outstanding
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Yeah, please don't assume me calling it BHVR maths is a criticism. Honestly I think it's one of the best parts of the game design and in the 6 years we've had DBD (and the 5 I've been playing for) I don't think it's broken once. But if I make the distinction between BHVR maths and "regular" maths is tells people there's a certain formula that you have to follow, and you have to follow it in that order, because that's just how it's done in-game. Giving it a name just helps alleviate confusion. Sorry if I came across differently ✨
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