Thana won't be staying like this long, sadly
I just had a legion game where an extremely obvious bully swf just simply gave up partway into the match because they simply didn't want to play with the gen speeds I had forced them to. I was running thana, thrilling tremors, surveillance, and oppression. They finished one gen but it was obviously going to require too much of a time investment for them to continue the game, and they weren't going to get the satisfaction of stomping on a killer, so they just simply locker-hopped to annoy me until I finally hooked them all.
These are the kind of survivors that are going to be very vocal about how the balance in this patch is too killer-sided. So enjoy your slowdown builds while they last, I can't imagine bhvr not listening to the bully swf people who want to be able to feel invincible again.
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Well I mean, maybe the problem isn't thana, but the fact that you were using 3 (2.5) slowdowns? They slowed gens down for killers so you don't do that
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Thrilling isn't slowdown, its info, oppression is a mild hindrance
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Developers have been listening almost exclusively to killers. For years.
Don't believe me?
1.) "Maps are too dark. I can't find Blendette!" Maps were redesigned and brightened.
2.) "Loops are too hard! They are godloops!" Almost* (all?) godloops were erased. Most decent loops were taken out as well.
3.) "Gens pop too quickly! I can't do anything!" Gen time was increased.
4.) "Hooks are too far apart! Survivors are abusing this!" Hooks were brought closer together.
5.) "Deadhard is too much! They get 2 seconds extra time in a chase/miss my hit (even though they gained exhaustion)!" DH was nerfed.
6.) "Decisive strike is not fair! If they are down, I deserve to get a hook!" DS was nerfed.
7.) "Flaslights are too OP! I can't play against them!" Flashlights were adjusted/overhauled.
8.) "Keys and hatches are not fair! I deserve to kill everyone!" Keys and hatch were nerfed.
Now before you say: "Well, killers were a little underwhelming and SWF was too strong"--I agreed! But gain some perspective on just how much the devs always, for years, have catered to the killers.
Complaining about forever Legion is the least of your concerns.
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Still considered a slowdown, never said it was good
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Tbh good. The meta shakeup was all about changing the meta, and what I was hoping for is a change from the types of perks run. Instead of just swapping PGTW for Call Of Brine (for example) people should be forced to run different types of perks (ie. swapping out Corrupt for Lethal, which is actually really fun now).
Thana didn't need the buff and yet got buffed twice over- once with the 0.5% increase and once with gens being increased by 12.5% (10s). Even with this, though, its only really obnoxious on 2 killers, Plague and Legion, because they can consistently keep 4 people injured (though highkey it's decent on any hit and run killer, and also Nurse but that's because she's Nurse).
Gens are boring. There is nothing fun about sitting still occasionally hitting skill checks. Either revamp how gens are to make them more engaging or stop making people sit on them for longer via slowdown and regression and encourage alternate methods of slowing down the trial.
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Actually, the maps were reworked as consoles couldn't handle the newer game engine upgrade so they had to remove all the fog/light/dark offerings, "next gen" (lol) can still barely play the game, we would still have them old map offerings if the game was PC only.
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That is partially true, yes. But part of their consideration for changing up the maps (and designing new maps in the future) was to get rid of Blendette. The devs openly stated this.
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Why would anyone not do that if slowdown is stronger than ever?.
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I don't care if they change Thana back to what it was for the same reason that survivors shouldn't care about the buff...it's 2% extra at 4 injuries. So on the new 90s gens, your reward for injuring all 4 survivors is a whopping 1.8 seconds extra repair time on each gen.
Big. Deal.
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Read my comment again. I didn't glance over anything, I literally talked about the new gen times. And 2% is 2%, no matter what base numbers you're talking about.
Again, I don't care if they reverse the buff they gave Thana, because it makes so very little difference. That was my entire point.
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Thana does deserve a nerf
when your going against a plague or legion with sloppy butcher your going to be injured for most of the game, and 22% is a lot. I just think it needs a rework. Also I hate it when killers complain about “bully swf” when most of the time it either isn’t swf or matchmaking just screwed you over
also I don’t blame survivors for doing swf now because it’s super painful right now to do solo q because of lack of communication.
if you don’t believe me how’s about you play survivor for once and do solo q
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I think you are massively oversimplifying it:
1.) The main complaints about dark maps came from using new moon offerings. And they WERE really busted, you could hide forever with it, making extremely boring games. But thats not the reason it got changed. The offerings where discontinued bc it made the creation of new maps too much of a hassle. And only Coldwind was actively reworked to be in daylight. It has nothign to do with killers complainging, they had implementation / design decisions for that changes.
2.) All good loops erased? You mean busted loops like Ironworks window, Storehouse windows, old cow tree. Good riddance I say. We STILL have pretty busted loops, main house of Garden of joy for example. And even if it is less god loops, there are still many god pallets. E.g. the four god pallets in the bathroom corner of the game. However this ones survived the rework.
3.) Gen time was increased NOW, yes. After 6 years. Boy do killers get their whishes fulfilled fast!
4.) There's no such change, thats BS. If anything, there are bugs currently where they spawn to close together. Also, there was a time not so long ago where you literally could only hook one person in one side of Ormond, and when that hook was gone, that side was totally safe for survivors. You had NO CHANCE to reach another hook, if a survivor got down there. Granted that was a bug as well. But you know what also happens often and is likely not a bug? Hook abundance near exit gates. I had SO MANY games where the survivors f***ed up at the gate, but I could only hook one bc all other hooks are to far away. And when the other survivors can sabo that one hook, it gg ez for you.
5.) DH for distance was busted. When playing killer now, you will just realize how often it would have extended the chase by a significant amount. The "two seconds" would only apply in a dead zone, but good survivors will avoid that if they can.
6) DS 1.0 was TOTALLY broken (instant DS for EVERYONE). DS 2.0 was still broken (instand DS for obsession and wiggle + ds for others). DS 3.0 was more or less fine, except that you could touch a gate without loosing it. All that changes were highly justified. DS 4.0 now disables in endgame, to not allow free escapes. That may be harsh, but understandable. It being reduced to 3 seconds might be too much, but thats more or less consens on everyone.
7) Flashlight changes did not really change anything, they are still extremely powerful in the right hands. And you can still be blinded from outside your pov, maybe even when facing a wall when picking up. Really bad example for the point you want to proove.
8) 3-man escape through hatch was one of the stupidest things possible. It was the literal definition of a robbed game, with the use of an item. Hatch is the last resort escape, and should never have been possible for more than one survivor. I would have prefered a different solution for the hatch (former spawn rules, but keys can only open a hatch during EGC), but the current situation actively prevents camping the hatch. And slugging to find hatch. And since both parties don't know the location of the hatch beforehand, the last survivor has a good chance to find it before the killer, esp. with perks like Left Behind / Clairvoyance. Using Clairvoyance is actually pretty reliable for ecaping in solo Q. That wouldn't be as reliable with old hatch spawn rules.
I could compile a list about "devs only catering for survivors" now, but I'm too lazy, and it does not help anything. Such bold claims are nearly always utter BS. Both sides get buffs/nerfs, and for the longest time, maybe since the beginning, survivors where more powerful, so you could even say all your mentionend "catering for killer" was still justified, since it all brought killers to the level of survivors. Only now, with the recent patch, one could argue that killers might finally have the edge. After six years.
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Dude, just don't, most of killers think that 4 soloQ are swf. Just don't...
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Like full Sabo, Boil over, new part, type groups?
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Unless they have a bunch of matching names or told you they were a SWF, you're just making an assumption.
Also you've clearly never played against a Thana Legion with stacked gen regression and slowdow. I won't do it again and will attempt to kobe as soon as I'm hooked every time I see one
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Maps being too dark, yet they bring out Haddonfield and Garden of Joys house... its like they forget and repeat past mistakes.
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This! I feel changes were necessary, but as one of his perks said it best, this game has become oppressive for survivors after the update. I truly feel the devs will need to reevaluate some of the buffs to killer. If I just bought this game to paly as a syrvivor, I'd quit after a few games.
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With new gen speeds, Thana should have been nerfed, not buffed.
And your definition of "bully swf" is questionable at best
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2% buff.
Let's have some perspective here.
Survivors are having tantrums and throwing games, causing their own misery, over a 2% buff.
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Wrong. Stop this Killer VS Survivors please.
1.The map rework is just a graphic update (came with survivor movements)
2.If you think infinites and god loops are good for the game, good for you
3 Gens have been adjusted times and times again because games were finished too fast
4 ? There are still Hook distance offerings ?
5 DH nerfed cause over used and too much impact. Just like Ruin was nerfed back when it was doing regression even when hitting a good skillcheck. This was a healthy change for the game. (speaking of, has been nerfed again)
6 DS has been nerfed multiple times. Remember when it was instant with no pre requisite ? Yes, you do.
7 Flashlights are still the same
8 Hatch is a bad mehanic in the first place
The devs are doing their work. They don't care about "Survivor mains" or "killer mains". They just want players to have a good experience, and their game to be balanced for EVERYONE. And this, is a huge challenge.
Give them time.
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Let's revert it to 20%, yay fixed.
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They just buffed it by 2% want it back to 20% ? Im sure you wont notice it.
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Lol i dont think so 🤣
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"The devs brought out a new patch where gen repair time was increased so killers would be motivated to try out perks other than gen regression/slowdown. Let me slap on some thana on my legion and see how survivors react."
What did you expect? I understand why they gave up, I wouldn't want to sit on a gen for ages cause it's boring.
That being said, enjoy the so called SWF because they're the ones you will be (exclusively) facing after this patch since solo players will probably quit.
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But that's not quite the whole story....new thana plus 90 second base gen repair time is 14 seconds more effective than old thana and old gen speeds at 4 stacks. Couple this with faster patrol of gens because chase ends 5-10 second quicker, and you begin to see how all of these changes are working together to be a f-in HUGE buff to killers.
I've played 40 or so matches since the patch rolled out, yay vacation. And after losing the first 20 or so, my MMR is now matching me with killers that can barely track me through T & L walls. I can loop them at shack until they give up to find someone else. To be clear, I am not good, but these other buffs have shifted the MMR balance dramatically. Now low skill killers are getting higher MMR than they should, and survivors with higher skill are getting there MMR driven down. These trends continue until wins and losses more or less balance out.
This is horrible state of affairs because now the victories feel hollow and the defeats feel cheap. There is nothing fun about that.
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Or maybe, just maybe, people don't want to sit still for 2 minutes pressing spacebar every 8 seconds. That's not even including the time it takes to mend against legion.
Seriously, I took Pig with the videotape add-on and the exhaustion add-on so they couldnt use exhaustion perks to speed up the removal of beartraps. I ran Thana, Gift of Pain, Ruin and Pentimento. I took RPD on purpose. I hooked everyone at least once before the first gen popped, the first kill happened before the second gen popped. Everyone was dead on hook after the second gen popped.
Ruin was gone at 4 gens, it was purely Thanatophobia and Gift of Pain that gave me enough time to chase someone long enough to get rid of all the pallets.
Thana doesn't need a nerf if the gentimes are reverted, otherwise both Thana might need to be reverted back to 4%.
If you think people don't play because they don't stomp killers, you're mistaken. People play survivor because they want to enjoy the game. 2 minutes per gen simply isn't enjoyable. Especially since mending is a lot more common too.
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Sorry am I seeing you complaining of something that worked the exact same way before the patch existed but got buffed a whopping 2 percent and only works good on legion and plague?
Talk about survivor onslaught of fake accounts pretending to be killer mains creating mass hysteria.
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Thano by itself isn't an issue and on most killers it's healthy tbh. However the two that use it to the fullest (which was true pre-update as well) was Legion and Plague. Most killers need to pair it with Sloppy to get the additional slowdown. However, these two killers powers give slowdown without the need of Sloppy.
Mending and Cleansing are more than secondary objectives like Pinheads box or Sadako's VHS. Mending is required and cleansing is strongly encouraged.
I'm a Plague main and I enjoy Thano a lot on her. My build is just based around spreading infection through Prayer Tablet. I think Plague is in a great spot rn and has been ever since CoH came out as her powers weaken those perks significantly.
Legion is more of a low-mid tier killer in general. The 5th FF hit and speed boost is great for them, but nothing too crazy.
I don't think it's right to base a perk around 1-2 killers that can utilize them to the fullest potential as they don't have too much else going for them tbh.
Nurse's calling is strong on stealth killers. Tinkerer is strong on high mobility killers. Infectious Fright is strong on one shot killers.
Thano is good on most killers, but is strong on killers that can injure quickly, namely Legion and Plague.
Run the same build on a different killer and let's see if they quit again.
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They could nerf it to 10% slower speeds. With that, it would be the same before. Prepatch 80 -> 100s. Now 90 -> 100 s. Similarly with pentimento, nerf it in a way so it matches a same end time result.
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Thanatophia 22.5% required killer to injure 4 survivor, no?
There is med kit and COH still have usage to counter that.
Revert to 20% or not, there is no difference. that perk is hard to achieve the full 4 stacks anyway.
And yes, dont group up if you face legion.
The combo of Hex: Pentimento and Hex: play thing is more scary tbh. 30%, with potential for slow down heal too.
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How long devs can continue before survivors quit? But I would say on ds that is not fair I can't tunnel one quickly out. I disliked the hacth change they should at least let it spawn when are gens were completed.
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It's not just about Thanatophobia and generators requiring more time to be repaired even without Thanatophobia; It's mostly about how much the survivors were carried by Dead Hard. This cuts off each chase by ~5 - 50 seconds, dependable on the map's RNG and the amount of commited mistakes.
For example.. You got to use Dead Hard to avoid a bear trap, which was supposed to block the entrance to the most powerful looping tile in the map? That's easily twenty seconds with just one health state with your M1 killer, and I'm not even including the time it takes to break the pallets, vault the windows repeatedly until the Entity blocks them.
Now, add those .. Twenty seconds to each chase, and see the result. That's over two minutes, yet barely enough to get three generators done in Solo Queue. Solo Queue will need another minute to get three generators outta the way, and that's under the assumption that they're all at average level (know how every single perk works, can constantly hit Great skill checks, but may not rememeber all the RNG possible spots of pallets and windows alike).
I have no clue, if you're just pretending to be blind or you're not even aware of that, but you're so wrong and off that I do strongly doubt, it's worth to discuss those things with you, unless you do decide to accept the facts as they are. Now, this may be caused by the lack of free time that you don't play Solo Queue as a survivor or whatever, but that's not good enough to back you up here, I'd say.
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If that was the real problem then they wouldn't allow for more that one or two slow down perks in the same build. cry more.
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I don't care about butchering thana tbh but what's the point of it then?
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Good I hope they nerf it the the ground.
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Uh, what?? Where on earth are you getting your numbers from?
Old Thana and old gens: 80s + 20% at four injured survivors = 16 extra seconds per gen.
New Thana and new gens: 90s + 22% at four injured survivors = 19.8 extra seconds per gen.
Difference is 3.8 seconds taking both into account. 3.8 seconds assuming worst case scenario. This is what people are up in arms about...
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Drop Oppression, throw in CoB. It's so damn good on Legion.
Eh...Thrill and Oppression aren't great perks and don't have a huge impact on matches. The Thana buff was actually pretty minor, so I think a lot of this is a combination of new gens speeds and pure psychology.
- Uh...what? Survivors also complained about the darkness (remember Gideon before it was changed?).
- You mean infinites. Yes, infinites are bad. They needed to go.
- Against SWFs? Yeah, they do. There should never be a situation where a gen pops between me spawning and me heading directly towards it. The stronger regression perks were all nerfed pretty hard to compensate.
- Yes? Some maps still need better spawns. Otherwise a single sabo can create a deadzone with zero counterplay.
- Dead Hard needed a nerf.
- DS needed the previous nerf, it was basically an extra life. It was overnerfed in 6.1.0.
- Instant, unavoidable blinds needed to be changed.
- Keys needed to be changed.
Also - no, mate. Just...no.
Sometimes things need to be changed for the good of the game, and basically everything you mentioned falls into this category.
You also conveniently ignore:
- Ruin nerf.
- Undying nerf.
- Pop nerf.
- PR nerf.
- BO buff.
- OTR buff.
- Baseline BT.
- Wraith nerf.
- Spirit nerf.
- Cenobite nerf.
- Freddy gutted.
- Slinger made insanely clunky.
- Twins nerfed. And nerfed. And nerfed.
I could go on - but, yes - sometimes stuff needs to be changed.
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old thana pre-nerf where it affected both gen speeds and healing was way stronger in my opinion. perhaps reworking the perk to only affect healing speed is better than generators.
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Way to cherry pick
1.) "Maps are too dark. I can't find Blendette!" Maps were redesigned and brightened.
The only map that I can think of which was “brightened” was the lower level of The Game, and frankly that level was way too dark. I literally couldn’t even see where I was going in large parts of that level, running into walls because it’s too dark is ridiculous.
And if you think there aren’t dark places in maps, maybe go check out the house in the newest Garden of Joy map. There are parts of that house where it’s so dark you can’t see the walls, it’s almost as bad as the old Game lower level in those sections.
2.) "Loops are too hard! They are godloops!" Almost* (all?) godloops were erased. Most decent loops were taken out as well.
Are you actually saying you think taking out infinite loops is a bad idea? Not to mention, in what world are “most decent loops” not still in the game? Virtually all the maps have sections with strong loops, what map are you thinking of that doesn’t have them?
3.) "Gens pop too quickly! I can't do anything!" Gen time was increased.
That’s true, they increased gen times. They also in the same patch buffed survivors in various ways. It’s not like his midchapter patch only buffed things on the killer side, even though the net result was an overall killer buff (which they said was intentional because of apparently lower kill rates than they are looking for.)
4.) "Hooks are too far apart! Survivors are abusing this!" Hooks were brought closer together.
I’ll take your word on hooks being brought closer together, I don’t remember that change. I do remember issues with Boil Over being exploited when they buffed that perk and they had to scale back the buff a bit. (Which, by the way, was a decent survivor perk buff, again an example of them buffing something on that side of the fence.)
5.) "Deadhard is too much! They get 2 seconds extra time in a chase/miss my hit (even though they gained exhaustion)!" DH was nerfed.
Dead Hard was probably the most overpowered survivor perk in the game, there’s a reason literally 70% of above average survivors were using it. It deserved a nerf, no question
6.) "Decisive strike is not fair! If they are down, I deserve to get a hook!" DS was nerfed.
They nerfed Decisive Strike because it was too popular and too good in the endgame. Personally I think they overnerfed its stun duration, it should probably be 4 seconds instead of 3, but I get why it was nerfed.
7.) "Flaslights are too OP! I can't play against them!" Flashlights were adjusted/overhauled.
I don’t remember flashlights getting a nerf. Heck, in fact they most recently got a bit of a buff in the form of Haddie’s new perk that inflicts Blindness on the killer when you flash blind them (by any means, doesn’t have to be a flashlight).
8.) "Keys and hatches are not fair! I deserve to kill everyone!" Keys and hatch were nerfed.
And that change happened simultaneously with Moris getting overhauled and significantly nerfed as well. (Prior to that patch Red and Green moris let you kill a survivor after only one hook.)
Long story short the devs make changes all the time on both sides. They don’t “just listen to killers”.
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7.) "Flaslights are too OP! I can't play against them!" Flashlights were adjusted/overhauled.
I don’t remember flashlights getting a nerf. Heck, in fact they most recently got a bit of a buff in the form of Haddie’s new perk that inflicts Blindness on the killer when you flash blind them (by any means, doesn’t have to be a flashlight).
he is referencing old flashlights. in case you don't know, flashlights used to have add-on's that instantly blinded you. people refer to them as insta blind flashlights. They were changed after Mathew cote played Hag against a korean survivor by friends spamming insta blind flashlights against his hag. they made a killer called doctor whoses tier 3 madness disables usage of items and that is also what the perk overwhelming presnce is about, though overwhelming presence is like trash-tier perk and doctor was pretty bad back than.
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That's not how Thana works. Thana slows the speed you repair generators, not increase the base time it takes to repair a generator.
Normally, a survivor repairs a generator at 1 charge per second and a generator takes 90 charges to complete. Thana reduces this by 0.22 charges. So the calculation is 90/(1-0.22) = 115.3 seconds. So max stack Thana increases gen times by 25.3 seconds, assuming it was at 4 stacks for the entire duration.
Old Thana was 100 seconds as 80/(1-0.2) = 100, which was a 20 second increase.
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So what you're saying is you won't mind repairing gens for 30 - 40 minutes because that's what new Thana does on killers like Plague and Legion when combined with other slowdown perks. I used Call of Brine + Overcharge + Thana on Plague and mostly exclusively defended gens.
Game went on for a good 40 minutes against a 4-man SWF. They were by no means terrible at the game, they just couldn't counter the slowdown. Gen speeds were increased so that you don't have to run builds like this.
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And don't forget about the lag advantage that killers get. Even with dedicated servers, hits are still handled on the killers end. Why? Because the devs realize that Killers have been accustomed to being the host for too long and it would be impossible to wean them off the advantage. So hits continue to be handled on the killers end, providing the killer with a tremendous advantage in every match at the expense of the survivor experience. Remember all the hoopla with dead hard validation and pallet stun validation? Killers were crying about fairness and how they were being denied hits, not realizing that they weren't entitled to those hits because of latency. However, the devs caved and now dead hard is dead and pallet validation has been scaled back which is why people are getting hit through pallets again. The simplified term for this is favor the killer.
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Thank you for the correction, my mistake. Still, that's 5.3s difference taking the generator change into consideration as well, not 14s like that other person was claiming. And given that the main complaint on this thread seems to be about Thana, it really shouldn't. So reverting to old Thana, we'll have 90/(1-0.2) = 112.5, so a difference of 2.8s. 2.8s extra time on each generator assuming you are able to keep all survivors permanently injured. That's what this thread is complaining about (going by the subject heading and many of the replies)...
I'm not saying that the new generator times don't take an age compared to old, but blaming it on a 2% increase to Thana is just dumb.
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Devs cater to data. Always have. It has nothing to do with this grossly biased claim.
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Aaaand, I just realised where @cburton311 got their 14s from (2.8 x 5). My apologies! I don't quite agree with the rest of what you said, but your numbers were accurate after all. This is why I shouldn't post when I'm in a hurry... 🤦♂️
No, what I'm saying is that Thana's 2% buff is not what is causing that. Is it contributing? Yes, a minuscule amount. But trying to make out that a 2% Thana buff is the cause of all your woes as a survivor is complete hyperbole. Once again, I have no issue if they were to reverse the buff, because I honestly believe it makes so little difference.
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The percentage is missing the effects of the patch as a whole.
Before the patch, an 80 second gen with 4 stacks of Thana took 96 seconds to complete.
After the patch, a now 90 second gen with 4 stacks of Thana takes 115 seconds to complete.
So, with all of the combined changes in the patch, this scenario takes an extra 19 seconds per gen. That's the part people notice and complain about.
Not to mention, Thana used to be more of a niche perk, but now everyone and their mom runs it.
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I've been saying this since the patched dropped. Obviously it's a patch that favors killers. But is it an unbalanced patch? How can we tell when survivors give up, DC or kill themselves practically every match? Because a game of survivor might take a bit of effort now and isn't a total walk-over. Incidentally, I did have a survivor match last night where we got completely stomped by an oni, I mean no holding back no mercy whatsoever. A little tilted I messaged him and asked him why he went so hard when the balance changes were still fairly new. His response?
"Just trying to get some wins in before BHVR nerfs killers into the ground again lol"
Take that how you will.
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I think everybody runs Thana right now simply because people are complaining about it when it comes to Legion and Plague, so they make the assumption "everybody complains about this => it must be strong". But outside of those two specific killers, Thana isn't good.
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Kinda expected,a lot of bully squads just give up when they realize they cant bully a killer.
I dont see it as a game problem but as a player problem.
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