Is there even a survivor meta anymore?
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I wish honest game, but not wins. Lol, why this days kids want easy games and zero effort in it??
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Yep that happens a LOT
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All Ive notice is everyone is running Prove Thyself including me. I never used to run it but now it's necessary.
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That's a backronym, an acronym created after the fact to help make a word or concept more digestible.
"Meta" is a shortening of "metagaming," which refers to not playing the game itself, but to step back and analyze how the game works and creating a strategy from there. A good example is the Prisoner's Dilemma. If you play the game, what seems like the good choice is to select the 'kind' option. However, when you metagame the proposition, the logical choice is to always select the 'unkind' option and just hope the other guy choses the kind one.
In the context of video or card games, Meta later came to simply be "whatever gets used the most," which is not exactly what the concept really means, but it's close enough for all practical purposes. For DbD, though, you can actually say (to an extent) that the meta perks ARE metagame choices, because they may not provide the best or most reasonable selections for any individual game, but based on the core rules of the game and average game flow, meta perks tend to bend or break typical matches, especially when used in concert with one another (stacking slowdown or stacking second chances, for example).
As to the core question:
- If you think Borrowed Time is "dead" or "got worse in any way," you aren't reading the room. It was the 2nd best, most-used survivor perk before and it only got WAY WAY stronger. There's a pretty huge difference between 5 seconds of invulnerability and speed boost versus 15 seconds. It's WELL worth a perk slot on everybody who plans on doing any rescues ever.
- OTR is just a free "get out of jail" card, both for if your Solo Q team mates haven't taken Borrowed Time (for some insane reason), if you Kobe/Deliverance, or if you just want a million years of invulnerability/undetectability to reset your status freely.
- Speaking of, Deliverance was absurd before and it wasn't touched at all, so it's still absurd. If you're saving survivors, this (potentially with OTR) will save you.
- Kindred. If you're Solo Q and you're not running Kindred, I have no sympathy for you.
- Saboteur was a somewhat 'team only' perk before, but now that you can see Scourge Hooks? Forget about it. You know for absolute certain WHERE the killer will be doing to and being able to take that down is huge. At worst, you only negate one or two of the killer's perks and spare your gens/status the scourge effect. Sometimes, you end up getting a save from the sabo, and that means the chase starts all over, giving your team that much more time to pop gens.
- Circle of Healing is the absolute best healing perk in the game. Every game I've played since it came out, there has been at least 1 CoH. Even after THREE nerfs, it is STILL the best healing perk in the game. Now that Self-Care is extra nerfed (for some absurd reason), CoH is even MORE the best. The only excuses to not bring CoH are: you don't want to Pay-To-Win by buying Mikaela, or your SWF team already is bringing a CoH.
- And, of course, only Dead Hard got a tap, so all the other Endurance Perks are exactly the same as they've always been.
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Are you talking about OTR or DS? Doing a conspicuous action while OTR is active will only remove its endurance, DS will get disabled completely when doing a conspicuous action (although OTR completely disables during endgame, so you are no longer silent and stealthy).
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Off the record with deliverance is very strong.
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I don't know if someone answered this but you can still technically stack them but as long as your under deep wounds other endurance effects won't activate but they are still there I believe counting down. Not too sure so don't hate me if I am a bit wrong lmao haven't had much time to play because of work.
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I am using lithe / windows of opportunity / coh / kindred
2 perks for team help and coordination 2 for chases
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OTR only really works if you’re getting tunneled. Which if you use it to body block the killer would just tunnel you and even easier with the hit receiver and nerf survivor speed boost. Especially since STBFL is already popular and now even more on the rise. You’ll just give him a free hook state and create even more pressure beacuse you’re that much closer to getting out of the game
Deliverance only really works with communication. Killers love coming back to hook every single 5 seconds so you would either need to pair it with other perks for it to be any decent. SoloQ teammates will rightfully still come to your location when hooked which pretty much nullifies the use of the perk to unhook yourself but you’re still wasting 1 person or even 2’s time when the entire point of the perk is to unhook yourself to waste as little time. It’s completely shut down if you’re the first one to get hooked or if someone unhooks before you get the chance. It is shut down hard by proxy camping which again tunneling and camping are rampant like the plague and the best anti tunnel perk DS is garbage now because if the changes I’ve pointed out.
Saboing is one of, No the most useless thing in the game lol. It literally never works 99% of the time and is countered by dropping the survivor. Chasing the saboer, and now you have 1 survivor on the ground, and 1 person not doing anything. It ONLY works if you have a toolbox that makes the hook timer take longer to respawn, and if the killer was far away from a hook. Which again, hard counter by pressing 1 button and now the killer has 2 people not doing gens, 1 slugged, other 1 wasting resources to loop the killer. So now a 3rd person has to come and try to pick up the slugged survivor. 3 people not doing gens now. Best killer perk 2nd only to Self Care.
Yea BT is still strong but it won’t do much against might mobility or ranged killers with STBFL. You’re just dead. Now if killer wants to tunnel you, better have 20k hours at the game and now how to read that Killer like literature to stand any sort of chance of not going right back to that hook.
The last time an endurance perk was strong was when old MoM was a thing. They’re still mid - trash teir perks.
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Clearly we disagree on just about all of these. It's a little funny that you suggest OTR and Deliverance aren't good and then explain a situation where having both would solve the problem. It's called synergy. Perks working together to solve the shortcomings of just running one or the other.
Also: you seem to REALLY think STBFL is a massive meta perk for some reason. You know that only speeds up basic attacks, right? It doesn't make huntress throw her hatchets any faster or whatever. Also, every hit on the obsession removes stacks, so you typically only run this on killers with alternate damage options, like Demogorgon. It's really, really bad for a majority of the killer cast.
But please, why not share what perks are you're running?
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I also explain like 5 situations where they’re hard countered by killers base mechanics or by just staying near hook?
Ok but Deliverance + OTR is it doing anything against any high mobility or ranges killer proxy camping lol. You get off hook, you go down again. Bonus points if you’re anti#tunnel that way the survivor gets ######### even harder.
Which is why no huntress runs STBFL? I’m so confused as to what the point is? If the survivors ran the meta then killers would counter it by running xyz. If most reviviré ran a healing build than killers would start playing Plauge. I thought we were talking about meta here not just random killers and survivors running random perks. Blight and Nurse still delete the survivor “meta”. The “meta” just cannot compare to killer meta.
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I’m running BT, SB, Botany, and the other perk slot is for time challenges. If I complete it I usually run Windows to try to improve my looping and don’t have to pray that whatever direction I’m going has something I can work with.
BT for tunneling killers and so I don’t have to rely on people running OTR, I can guarantee they could get to a safe loop unless they’re in a dead zone.
SB because best exhaustion perk in the game. No explanation needed.
BK because I don’t of Makheila (idk how to spell her name) unlocked so might as well go for the 2nd best option.
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Bottany and CoH is really good this patch because its like Coh before the nerfs, but still bottany is really helping with thana since it cuts a bunch of time healing.
Blast mine and repressed are very good to punish people kicking gens.
Prove Thyself, unbreakable help a lot and runnin off the record is the new ds but requires a good amount of looping skill to help out.
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I think Off the Record is a good perk but survivors who use it to goof around and intentionally go for bodyblocks are wasting it. It’s best use in my opinion is simply to let it give you a chance to get a safe distance from the killer with its stealth and endurance, get healed to full, and then work on a gen while the killer is elsewhere. It’s solid at giving you that time buffer to get reset.
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Lithe, Windows of opportunity
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Don’t dismiss the stealth aspect of Off the Record, to me that’s almost the bigger part of the perk. It could really help ensure that you have that extra time to get to a safe spot, get healed to full, and then get back on a gen. Borrowed Time has no stealth aspect so it’s a bit easier to get re-spotted prior to getting back on a gen.
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Just like killers, there is no meta. There are only builds. Start being creative people. I got Head On, Quick and Quiet, Lightweight, and Dance With Me for my stealth build. Then I have a gen rush build, healing build, ect. Stop using all the same perks. It's very boring.
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I've been using Lithe, Distortion, Lucky Break and whatever perk helps me with the challenge I need to do in the match.
Lithe I always used, it has always been my favourite Exhaustion perk
Distortion I've been using for a while now, especially since they added Lethal Pursuer (I didn't realized they were removing the 4th token they had added recently, mfers)
Lucky Break is nice, now that you can recharge it it's a little bit better, although I'd say it needs to be tweaked a little bit more to be very good
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I'd imagine some players trying out new builds but might end up with a "meta" which is sad to say
When I played (which was before the Dredge was on the PTB) there were a wider verity of perks being used... But me playing Killer I didn't mess with my build that much (even which Killers I played... which is boring to me)
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Since OTR is trash and over hyped, I assume you'll never make a post about tunneling, correct?
Lithe, OTR, prove thyself, and either something that helps with unhooks or with healing. I like deliverance.
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So many exhaustion perks haha. I'm trying to succ as the Armored Titan but everybody sprints away from generators or windows at Mach 5 haha. I need to actually start paying attention to windows now because the amount of Lithes I see is insane
It's a little rough but it's the good kind of rough.
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I'm actually split on Prove Thyself. The gen speed is nice, but gens feel even slower to coop imo, I'd almost rather be doing a generator by myself.
I'm loving it for dealing with High Priority generators though like the RPD Main Lobby
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80 seconds of blocked Aura reading and ye olde Iron Will after both unhooks is pretty good. Even if you commit to a conspicuous action or get hit, that just removes the Endurance effect. The Iron Will and Distortion effects remain for the full 80 seconds.
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Ill agree that OTR has felt very lackluster in my games lol. Maybe others have had better luck with it but I have not. My current builds I've been running have actually been pretty fun.
"Where did they go?" build - Lightweight, Dance with me, Lithe, Hope (this one was a memey build at first but Ive been having alot of fun with it honestly)
"######### this aura perk meta" build - Shadowstep, Distortion, Overcome, Resilience
"God please let me finish this totem challenge without being facecamped" - Small game, Counter force, Clairvoyance, Overcome
Most of these builds are for fun and are not meta probably. Im curious to see if shadowstep will step into the meta though since it blocks aura perks. Still testin builds out to see what works best for me
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Lithe always has been my favorite exhaustion perk, just because its so easy to trigger and nearly always gave value, closely followed by Overcome for the lulz factor.
But being outplayed by any of them doesn't feel anything like the old DH. You only shrug and follow up or go after someone else, instead of wasting a whole minute.
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PT has always been meta. It's just boring and normal gen speeds used to be deemed fast enough without it.
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I'm running the same perks I always have except for one. Lightweight, We'll Make It, Iron Will, and now instead of Were Gonna Live Forever (cause why bother without the BP bonus) I've been playing with resilience or inner strength. Same degree of success as always. PIP 2/5 matches, Black Pip 2/5 matches, Depip 1/5 matches.
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I don't know if there's a defined "meta" yet -- that probably will take a little time and experimentation to see something shake out.
On my end, I never used Dead Hard, so seeing that perk driven into the ground (which I think was a good thing) doesn't bother my builds in the slightest. I used to run DS on every build, but I've put OTR in its place -- if I'm going to get tunneled, instead of getting downed and potentially left on the ground for my DS timer to run out, now I at least can stay on my feet with the endurance affect and get to a safe loop to waste more time of the killer, helping my team, so for me, those perks are at worsr a wash in efficiency.
My exhaustion perk is Overcome, which I was running before the new update, and it's a perk that got more valuable with the quicker cooldown on killer hits. I've almost always run Prove Thyself, which I think certainly will see an uptick, especially in SWF's (I run it even as a solo). My last perk was always COH, which I still think has value, but the new Lucky Break is potentially very strong and I've run it with great success numerous times now since its change (it was strong before, but with the usual BT/DH/UB/DS that so many people ran, as strong as it was, players didn't want to seem to experiment with it).
Playing as killer, the only real difference I've noticed in the survivor builds I've gone against has been the lack of Dead Hard -- instead of seeing 3-4 a match, I've been seeing the perk rarely, often not at all or at most 1-2 people still hanging on to it (and the number of people who've actually used it correctly is even fewer). I've seen a number of PT's, some people running Lightweight and Lucky Break as perks to help them lose the killer in chase, and a handful of "healing builds" with Botany at its head. Exhaustion perks are still there, but they've been vairied now -- I've actually seen Balanced Landing and Lithe more since the update than I had in maybe the month of games I played prior (and that's not an exaggeration).
This update seems to have been focused on key points -- forcing people away from the perks that were run non-stop by both sides (and that seems to have worked, as I've seen that playing on both sides), and pushing the game into more lengthier matches, where chases mean more, gen-slamming means less (or potentially it DOES mean more, since doing so is harder to do), and DH isn't the deciding factor in every interaction between killer and survivor. I've seen a lot of that in the matches I've played since the update (most of the games that I die in as survivor have still been competitive, and a lot of losses that were one-sided had as much to do with rage-quitting teammates sabotaging everyone else as much as anything, and my killer matches really haven't been all that different from what they were before -- my kill rate was already pretty high, but the only real difference I've seen is that I'm not playing around DH every single chase now).
There's been a LOT of overreaction on this board, but that's typical of what you see here. I always point out in my posts that I play a LOT of this game (literally 25 hours+ a week, split almost evenly between survivor and killer) and I have two years and thousands of hours in the game at this point, so I think my experiences carry some weight, but clearly this is only a representation of MY games -- and your experience may vary, I assume that things will get tweaked on either side at some point if there's an issue (I think the SC and DS nerfs were ill-thought-out as a couple of examples), but overall, I plan on playing around with builds on both ends and seeing what works.
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The new meta is basically
Borrowed Time to make tunneling that first person out of the game take longer
Prove thyself to buff gen speeds
Overcome or Sprint Burst depending on how good you are with 99ing Sprint burst.
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I assumed that the IW/Distortion aspects of OTR were bugged -- if that's the way the perk is actually supposed to be functioning, than it makes it even better. I've literally hid in plain sight from a killer after working on a gen with it and assumed it was a bug. If not, than I'm even happier with it's potential to be a DS replacement than I was before.
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I'm obviously anti-tunneling but I don't think OTR is a good as people hype it to be.
If the killer is camping and someone pulls you off hook, you get basekit BT. If you get hit within those first 5 seconds of being unhooked, you take an endurance hit and from my understanding, they removed the ability to stack endurance hits so you wouldn't be able to take a 2nd endurance hit with your perk.
Let's say you make it past the first 5 seconds but you get hit anywhere between 6-15 seconds into being tunneled. Congrats, that's the same benefit you'll get from a teammate simply bringing new BT. So again nothing special.
This perk only really gains value if you're being tunneled and can go more than 16 seconds off hook without taking a hit.
Then what if the killer doesn't tunnel you. Well you either A: Go do a gen or something useful and cancel your perk or B: Chase the killer trying to make use of your perk and waste time. The perk is mid at best and I'd still argue C or D tier
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PT has never been meta.
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Really? Lithe was meta?
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It's only been 3 days since the patch. The next meta is going to take longer than this to be established.
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If you're too lazy to 99 Sprint Burst, Lithe is meta
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I mean, BT can still work, because the killer will just count to 5 and then hit, if you get an extra 10 seconds, that's a 10 seconds haste to get away, and then the speed boost from the hit
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No, if you were to lazy to 99 SB, you would run DH, lithe was NOT meta, half the reason why I used it
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/thread
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Right you just nerf that perk, not buff everything on the killer side as well.
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Lithe wasn't meta, but now is.
We're talking about what the new meta is/could be, not what it was
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I've been running SB, Fixated, Urban Evasion and Vigil. I like to sneak and sprint away if they find me and stealth juke away on loops. I've also been running We'll Make It, Autodidact, Empathy, and Lithe. I know when people are hurt so I get a better view of the battlefield, I can go for big hook saves with massive heals, and lithe just to get away since I don't have fixated for SB. These are builds I was using before the meta patch, and ones I'm still using after that get results.
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Off the Record
Prove Thyself
Lithe, SB, BL, Overcome (Non-Dead Hard Exhaust perks)
Borrowed Time
Lucky Break
CoH, Shadowstep (Boons in general)
So on, So on.
If the whole meta (and at this point Survivor player base) was entirely held together by Decisive and Dead Hard, then maybe getting rid of them is the best choice.
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Yes and no. I think most second chance type perks are situational, so the criticism you have of otr is "well if this and if this then it's no good". Unbreakable only works if you are slugged. Deliverance means you have to save someone first so you can't be the first one downed. They're all like that.
But also, otr is basically a personal BT so you aren't hoping the rescuer has the perk. That's good security. And killers like myself may wait out 5 seconds but otr will save you after that. Especially if you aren't making it obvious you can take a free hit. If you get tunneled you can waste the killers time which is great. And if you lose him you can get somewhere safe or re-engage to bait and help a teammate. Since I'm not a greet survivor and I don't like all the pre conditions on perks, I've actually found Otr to be versatile in how I choose to use it.
I see your concerns, I just think what you said about otr can be said about most perks in that group, and I can find a way to use otr or just be happy I didn't have to use it.
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I mean, SB wasn't changed and everyone said they would flock to that perk
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There isn't from what I can tell. it used to be that 90% of survivor perks were purely situational. Now all of them are. The bonus you get from any perk or perk combos including boons only makes up for nerfs to survivors by a tiny fraction. Playing with perks now is like playing with no perks at all pre-patch.
Try a hatch/stealth build and hope you get hatch.
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