It's up to the devs to fix camping and tunneling
In any game player should be using the best strategy to win. In dbd as a killer that is camping and tunneling. Tunneling a player out gives a huge advantage and news flash, in every single comp dbd tournament they are going to camp and tunnel. It feels pathetic that I have to sometimes thank killers for not camping/tunneling a player out because that actually gave us a chance to win. The devs should be fixing this instead of expecting killers to have some honor code. Any game that has a cheap tactic in it, the devs will make it so that tactic doesn't work anymore. We shouldn't expect the killers to change, the devs need to fix it.
There are tons of possible solutions, I could list many for fixing both camping and tunneling, but the best example are crows when you hide. If crows didn't exist in the game people would probably say "well hiding is just a part of the game!", but they put in a game mechanic to fix something that is cheap and stupid.
Comments
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Share the list. I'm curious.
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there is no solution to camping and tunneling, but you can reduce it by giving killer incentives to not do it, like more bloodpoints or a basekit No Way Out, basekit NWo only if soloq receive buffs and nurse and blight receive nerfs, thats my take
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With the changes the DEVs made there is NO need to camp or tunnel at 4 or 5 gens. Since this update I only came across 2 that camped and tunneled. The only ones that camp/tunnel now are
1. That's the only way they know how to play
2.Their playing like that to be a BUTT-HEAD.
I said it before if certain players refuse to change the way they play they will fix camping/tunneling.
Who knows what those changes will be only time will tell.
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what? I get where you are coming from but the games where tunneling is a problem, are the games that don't make it to end game.
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Game Balance Attempt — Dead By Daylight
There's my attempt. I need more input to make it better.
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The recent changes which saw killers get loads of buffs and survivors nerfs were done as 'the devs trying to fix camping and Tunnelling'... and yet camping, Tunnelling and slugging have been way more prevalent than before.
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5 secs basekit BT solved tunneling guys.
1,2,3,4,5 get down again. And they always picking instantly because DS is the most trash survivor perk atm and no one runs it.
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Devs obviously dont want their game to be fun, but being annoying. Otherwise you cant explain their behaviour on tunneling and camping.
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Honestly, I'm starting to not care whether or not tunneling and camping changes effect the average Killer.
So far as I can see, the average Killer in my games will do it regardless of their position, winning or otherwise. It has nothing to do with what is necessary (although sometimes it is) and more to do with what is easy.
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There is no solution to hiding in a locker all game. But you can reduce the incentive to do it by adding crows. Think think think.
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I do it because I prefer the playstyle. And sometimes survivors are good enough that I need to do it regardless. That is more rare than in the past, but you know, I COULD play for 12 hooks. And I am not intentionally trying to be a douche just because I enjoy camping and tunneling. I fall into option three: Giga Chad.
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What if Camping and Tunneling was not a problem, but a feature.
Think about if if you remove a Killer's ability to pick their targets and protect their goal, then the Slasher/Horror Theme falls apart.
I think bHVR knows that Killers need to be an unpleasant threat to Survivors for the game to function.
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Absolutely, but there should also be ways for survivors to counterplay it effectively.
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the thing is they said they are working on solutions for that but it isnt easy to find a good way to handle this.
sure they could just make an unhooked survivor immune and give th hook a barrier the killer cant go in and that would fix both problems in an instant but would that be a good fix? i dont think so. the devs want camping and tunneling in there game atleast to a degree and that means every solution to hard camping und tunneling needs to be well thought and tested to keep it as a strategic tool for the killers but make it so its not to opressiv for the survivors
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They should just make hooks akin to pyramid head's cages and be done with it, unless it's basement. I'm so sick of it.
On the "strategy" aspect, yes sometimes it is very helpful to tunnel someone out, but I've experienced it enough at 5 gens to know most people just do it for an easy win.
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Thats the point, if killers know that they dont need to tryhard because they have a last chance at the endgame to catch the survivor then they would go get more hooks on other survivors
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If you hide in a locker all game the game would last a long time, you wouldnt have fun because you would just be waiting to others die and at the end game you would only have 50% chance of getting hatch, its not a efficient way of playing, its the contrary of tunneling
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I’d love to hear any solution that won’t guarantee 4 escapes every match.
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I don't think adding incentives would work, for me this patch proved that regardless how well killers perform camping and tunneling at 5 gens will still be thing.
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Just give all the other survivors a speed buff of let's say 100% on gens when the killer is standing next to the hooked survivor. 200% if he's doing it with insidious.
Let's see how fun and enjoyable camping will get for killers if the killer queue is longer than the actual game and every game is a 1k at max.
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I still think that if a killer is X meters away from a hook, the hook progress is paused. If a killer is chasing someone near the hook then the hook progress goes back to normal. This will stop survivors from looping a killer near a hooked survivor in order to pause the timer longer. The further the killer is away from the hook the faster it becomes until it goes to normal speed. How far away? I dunno, it would have to be tested. Also make base BT a bit longer.
This would force the killer to move away from the survivor and focus on someone else quicker. Thus giving time for another survivor to go do a rescue save. Also, have it so every survivor can see the auras of other survivors when someone is hooked. Like base kit kindred but without the ability to see the killer's aura. This will help solo queue.
The latest update I think was needed because as killer it was brutal chasing one person for not very long and have three gens go off all at once. The thing is now it makes it easier for killers to camp and tunnel without having to worry about gen pressure. So that needs to be addressed as well and I think this would help. But what do I know? I don't make video games for a living.
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Make the survivor teleport to another hook if the killer spends too much time around it without hitting anyone. Make the player lose exp points if they keep downing the same survivor in a row in a short period of time.
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I have a weird but good idea for tunneling. If a killer gets say 3 hooks on someone before the 5th total game hook, that person doesn't die. So if there's a person with 2 hooks and a person with 1 hook. If the person with 2 hooks gets another hook, they don't die they get a bonus hook state.
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It's a horror game. Don't killers "tunnel" and "camp" in horror movies? Shouldn't a horror themed game possess similar elements?
There's no issue here. Just try different builds when you play survivor to get better results. You can't honestly demand that people play ineffectively so it's easier for you to win. That's unreasonable. And ultimately, other players can play the game however they please.
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Only time I have ever camped a player is always that one Clickly Click player that decided poking a bear is a fun game to play....as long as players don't do toxic things to me I WONT do toxic camping and Tunneling to them.
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But you can't do that with out nerfing some killers into the ground big time i.e hag she has to build a web of traps and most times it's set up around 3 gen setup, doing what you suggested would make her even weaker then she is, she hooks someone in the 3 gen setup and web setup and survivor gets put to other side of map with hag its no point going over there once they unhook the survivor as she is weak in chase so she can't really leave her setup so that allows the survivors to reset then come back and try and get a gen done.
If it's another killer and you start a chase and they run to the cage/hook then the killer is forced with two options keep going with chase but caged survivors moves to other side of map where another can unhook them and then you still need to down that person, the other choice is to drop chase and let them get the save the killers hand are tied with that idea and are forced into a no win situation.
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You’re not the killer, only someone playing a video game. Do you imagine any of those killers crying because a surv tbag him?
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This. I think the thing that annoys me is people saying things to this idea and others ‘No this won’t work because it’ll be too easy for survivors” as if all ideas are final and a vacuum that other changes can’t happen alongside or in time, that everything has to be fixed RIGHT NOW!!!
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Because they have learnt from the past that if they drop a nerf or a change to one side and its a major one and it favor's the other side big time that it puts them even deeper in a hole, perfect example is mori's killers knew that it was coming but got no warning or heads up on the day they were going to change them they just did it, because they didn't do keys at the same time a LOT of survivors started to bring keys into every match knowing that keys will be changed at some point.
They can't just rush out a fix for camping and a lot of ideas people come up with just favor's survivors and when people try to point out why it won't work and the problems with it or even that they have tested stuff like this some people just don't want to listen and only read what they want to.
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Yeah but it's also a 4 vs 1 video game, where the 1 has a lot more control over the gameplay. I have had so many games where I'm taken off the hook and then chased right away. Hooked and then chased again right away. Didn't get a chance to open chests. Didn't get a chance to work on a gen. Didn't get a chance to use one of my perks that requires a build up or a totem. Look for a hex totem to cleanse, etc. Being in a match for about a minute or two, lose a pip, and only get about 5K BP isn't fun. You as a killer had fun because the game didn't end for you after that, you get to move on to camp and tunnel someone else and a chance to gain a pip and rank up for more blood points on the 13th of the month.
Should I be upset at the person playing killer for doing this? Nah. I'm upset with the developers allowing this. It shouldn't be allowed in the game and it isn't up to the community to "police itself" when playing this game. Throw that "survivor rule book" out the window. No one should be telling someone how to play a video game that allows them to play a certain way. You play how you want. However, I think the mechanic needs to changed so it's fun for everyone.
When I see survivor mains and killer mains fight with each other over how to play but don't point the finger at the BHVR, it reminds me of co-workers getting upset at each other at work and not pointing the finger at the CEO. A bit odd of a comparison but you know what I mean ;P
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Currently, it's not that difficult to tunnel.
- Camp or patrol around the hook survivor
- Hit the hooked survivor immediately after he/she is rescued. Deep wound kicks in.
- Tunnel that survivor to your heart content.
This is what I found 5 matches in a row today, and even while there were 4-5 gens up. This patch doesn't solve the issues as deves intended. It's getting worse. And I no longer have faith in the devs, honestly.
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OK. Now being unhooked and knocked down again almost immediately is frustrating, for sure. How can the mechanics be changed though? In a way that doesn't turn DBD into a completely different game? Know what I mean? Let's be honest, in solo Q your teammates can befar more dangerous to you than the killer.
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In movies it's fine because you're not the one on the receiving end. In videogames, however, nobody likes being unable to play the game normally. Camping and Tunneling prevent people from playing the game normally.
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Alright. So let me ask you, how do you define playing "normally"? See what I mean? The one playing killer has to apply pressure, has to keep you off of generators. It's how they prevent escape. I don't see how standing at a hook helps, but if they are in the vicinity of a hooked survivor in order to swoop in on a would be rescuer? That's an ambush. It makes sense.
So from a survivor's perspective, how would you make the game "fair" and not become a walk in the park for the 4 in the 4v1?
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Help me out, I'm not following your meaning...
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How's that list looking?
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Chase range is only 12 meters and needs the survivor to be running.
Its very easy to contest a save without starting a chase. Survivors will abuse that for free gen time on the other 1-2 survivors on gens. Additionally the person being camped will be camped for even longer.
Hope you like being camped for the entire game while your teammates abuse you for free gen time. At least now you eventually die.
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To answer your question about normal gameplay, I would consider each survivor being chased for a bit and hooked at least once to be normal gameplay. I would not consider a killer sacrificing 5 gens for a guaranteed 1k to be normal gameplay.
Tunneling and Camping are fine when employed as strategies to generate pressure. The problems arise when you have killers who tunnel and camp as if that's the only way to play the game.
The basekit buffs to killers were a step in the right direction, along with the nerf to Dead Hard and the removal of DS after the last gen is done. To make the game fair without making it a walk in the park for the 4 in the 4v1 is a different discussion, but I will say that I don't claim to know how to achieve that perfect balance, but I know that human behaviour needs to be accounted for in all balancing decisions.
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Not too good I'm afraid, I've been slacking on reading up with this thread.
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I'm okay with that. I would rather the killer gets 1K from only me so the other 3 can escape. Or they can at least come in for the save after all gens are done and both gates are 99. It's a lot better than waiting to die so the killer can do it to someone else. Someone doing that as killer will probably get bored with that fast and will probably either stop playing or play differently. Right now camping and tunneling is just not fun for survivors and the killer gets rewarded because ::insert meme of that one dev shrugging:: you didn't win unless you got a kill.
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I'm not ok with forcing the killer into a lose-lose of give a free unhook or lose the entire game. Like you said, they can still save the person after and that'd be a 0K.
Killers are players too. Killers should be able to defend hooks against the survivors if they contest. You're basically saying you're ok with survivors winning every game by forcing the killer into this situation where either way the killer give the survivors massive value. Like they did the first time a similar idea was implemented.
It's "a lot better" for the survivors only, and massively worse for every killer, not just the the ones who want to camp, the ones just trying to defend against instant hook saves too.
That's some pretty big survivor entitlement if you actually think that's a good idea.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
In a game that has introduced a kpop killer im going to go ahead and say the slasher theme is long past dead
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What's the problem? He slashes just as well as his American Slasher friends.
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I would argue what you said is killer entitlement. You're not entitled to a win just as much as a survivor isn't either. I think everyone is entitled to have an average enjoyable time playing a game they paid for. If you don't want a 0K in that situation, then don't camp. Move on and let the other person have a shot at playing the game they paid for. You have buffed base kit and perks now. Use them.
I would agree with your part saying it would be massively worse for every killer before this update. After this update it's not anymore. This update needs more balance IMO.
Now that the game has buffed gen pressure, a killer can easily move on after someone has been hooked. Go kick a gen with your buff base kit of 2.5% reg, faster kicking, and buff gen perks. Go hit someone and catch up to them now that they nerfed how long they have haste. Now because of the new update, they can camp and tunnel someone out and get a 4K a lot easier while survivors have to suffer trying to do nerfed gens and buffed killer perks. I play both about equally - I tend to play killer more. Before the update I sometimes felt like I had to proxy camp and tunnel to really win because gens would go off so quickly, but after the update I don't have to.
Right now I feel like it's very miserable for survivors (I know it is for me) and when camp/tunnel happens about 75% of the time now it really makes playing survivor a pain. Thus why it takes so long to play killer now because less people want to put up with that. Survivor queues are in a drought.
I would say try a few games of not camping and tunneling after this update. See how it goes. I still stand by what I think needs to happen with hook progress. Because how it is now, I'm not playing survivor - I'm mainly playing killer. Having to do survivor tomes is such a chore now.
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You're not listening or you don't understand. It's not entitled to let the killer have a chance at winning. It is pretty entitled to say is to say the killer being forced into a lose-lose is fine, that's saying "survivors should win this situation every time".
Letting the survivors get a free unhook when you know they're right there and ready to save will lose you the game. Hence survivors will be ready for the save all the time, like the last time they tried that solution.
Its not solved by "JuSt DoNt CamP". Its not just camping, you're losing all pressure you built up immediately because otherwise you give the survivors infinite gen time since they no longer have to worry about saving until you let them. You are putting the killer in a position where either way they are losing the game, camp or not.
Letting survivors get instant saves every single hook will lose the game. Letting them get gen time will lose you the game. There is no way for a killer to win in your system without the survivors letting them.
Your "solution" does more harm than good unless you only care about survivors.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
Not to mention that with CoH still insanely OP there is no point to hit & run or wounding multiple survivors - 30 seconds later they're fully healed and back bodyblocking.
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Just one thing I can't understand is hookgrabs it's so stupid, it makes facecamp way more effective for no reason, delete hookgrabs and we can atleast force a trade
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There's no solution here that wouldn't break the game entirely. You can disincentivize the tunneling, but it's always going to be there, unless you straight up make an unhooked surv invincible for the rest of the match.
I really don't feel like the new meta is all the much worse, but I've just kept running BT on top of the basekit. And really if someone is going to tunnel you through that, they're probably the type to tunnel through any other reasonable countermeasure they'd add in. If it's worth losing to the war to win the battle for a killer, what can you even do with that?
You can increase the invulnerability time, boost the haste effect, whatever, but if the dog wants the bone bad enough, they'll get it. Hell, even when DS was at its strongest it wasn't even close to a truly effective deterrent.
Tunneling is more of a people problem than a game design problem, and as such I fear we just have to cope.
For camping I'm more optimistic there is something approximating a solution to be found, though I am not sure what that looks like. I've proposed a couple, but upon cross examination exploitable flaws were discovered.
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I feel like you're also not understanding or listening to what I'm saying. But maybe add this?
If a survivor is near by, the hook progress is back to normal. So if a killer and a survivor are near a hook - the hook progress is the same. If a survivor is not near by but a killer is, then the hook progress pauses. If the killer is x meters away (again I don't know how far) then hook progress is back to normal. Then a survivor can go in for the save. I feel like that's a fair mechanic.
Or just up the amount of time it takes to stay on the hook now that gens take longer to finish. Or if you hook someone before the gates are powered - have the entity take a survivor to the furthest away hook right away, unless it's the basement.
There should also be something for tunneling but I don't know how to make that fair and fun for everyone. But moving the survivor to a hook far away would fix tunneling. Gives the survivor some breathing room. All I know right now is this: having to be camped and/or immediately tunneled off a hook is really unfun / unfair for a survivor playing in that situation. I mean can we at least agree on that part? I had multiple games last night while doing my survivor tomes where I was the first one hooked and then tunneled out right away. Very first game was a Wraith waiting while cloaked by a hook. I barely got to do anything. Unless my tome was "die within a few minutes and get less than 5K BPs while doing so" - getting my tomes done was a freakin' chore and I hated it.
Like I get it that camping and tunneling has always been a part of this game, no matter how many people complain about it - but with this latest update it just made it so much worse because before if you did camp and tunnel gens would get done kinda quick and you would get like a 1 or 2K. If you have good survivors then you would get a 0K. Now playing this way it's pretty much a given you will get 3 or 4K playing like that and you will get at least a 1K (I would argue) 99% of the time. So killers are doing it more and more and survivors have to suffer for it. Again, reason why there is a drought in survivor games and killer queues take a long time. It's not the only reason but I think it's a good chunk of the reason why.
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I agree with this. I think boons were a big mistake in this game. They should add a cool down after it has been snuffed or make destroying them as killer base kit instead of a perk.
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