A Hillbilly main with 5,000 hours thoughts on Nurse
Hey, guys. So, I am one of the top 20 Hillbillies in the world in terms of saw downs (https://dbd-stats.net/profile/76561198001716436). I have, roughly speaking, about 25k saws to my name. I got all of these saws relatively quickly, as I only started to really main Billy back in November of last year. Yesterday, a hacker came into my stream and told me that my MMR was 1835 on Billy, which, considering the max is 1900, likely means I am one of the highest MMR Hillbillies out there.
Why is this relevant to the topic of Nurse? Well, recently, Nurse has come into a lot of hot-water, and the murmurs of Twitter indicate some people want ranged addons nerfed, a total addon makeover, or even a massive power overhaul. I'd like to give my thoughts on why I feel Nurse is necessary to the meta.
The maps. The maps are THE MOST significant problem with the game. Eyrie of Crows, Badham Preschool, Garden of Joy, Mother's Dwelling, Temple of Purgation, Grim Pantry, Cowshed, Rottenfields, Rancid Abattoir, Groaning Storehouse, Suffocation Pit, Ormond, Blood Lodge, Gas Heaven, Disturbed Ward, Haddonfield, and Gideon Meat Factory all vary in how egregious they favor survivor.
Dead by Daylight is a complicated game that takes many hours to master. You aren't really very good at this game till you have around 800 or so hours played. And even then, you will still have significant issues trying to play against players who have near as many hours as I have. If you put me in a lobby with anyone sub-800 hours, I will chew them up and spit them out hastily. They probably will not have a fun match. Maps feel as if they are tailored toward the middle of the pack, sub 200-hour, survivor. I would augur that most maps are made with the mindset that mediocre skilled-survivors can get a 2-man out versus a good killer. If you think about this, it makes the most sense why BHVR would want to retain mid-to-new players.
As far as BHVR is concerned, I am a tapped revenue source. I have 5000+ hours in this game. I will buy non-licensed killers/survivors with shards. I own all of the cosmetics I care to own. If I purchase this game for a friend, their skill level will nowhere near reflect mine, and they will be massively out-gunned in my MMR if we SWF. I do not make BHVR much money. They do not balance maps for me, they balance it for the players who make them money. New players, who might buy older DLC, or buy cosmetics I already own. Players who can SWF with their friends and be relative to their skill-level.
So, let's address the issue of maps. Maps that are tailor-made for mediocre survivors to be able to drop safe pallets, run to the next tile, and hopefully loop the killer for 30-40 seconds, become MASSIVELY in favor of survivor in the higher divisions of MMR. When you get survivors who have played this game for 2,000+ hours, you get survivors who tie multiple different structures into one, long giant loop that wastes your time significantly.
You can play your killer well, maybe even perfectly, make almost all the right judgement calls, get downs quickly, pressure the right areas, get the most value out of your perks, drop chase when necessary, tunnel when available -- and still lose. You can play your killer better and with more skill, muscle memory and reaction times than the survivors, and they get to win because the map is one-sided. The survivor can spawn in and win the game because you decided to play Hillbilly on Garden of Joy, or Myers on Cowshed. They got the better RNG. Or even worse, they bring a map offering for a one-sided map. A 5,000 bloodpoint offering can dictate who wins.
This brings me to Nurse. Nurse, when played optimally, skillfully, and well, can deal with ANY map in this game. She ignores the fundamentals of the game, which is valuable, because the game is fundamentally flawed. You can spawn in on Mother's Dwelling, Cowshed, or Badham Preschool as Nurse, and know that dependent on your skill, you stand a reasonable chance of doing well against the survivors. Those broken, overpowered loops that have existed for 6+ years don't matter to you, because you can ignore them. Nurse is a killer that your raw skill -- and not RNG -- can dictate the outcome. This is necessary.
I'm a Hillbilly main. Some people think he is the hardest killer in the game to play. I really can't say, because I'm still trying to master Nurse & Blight. But it is immutably true that is a weak killer. He is not relevant to the game any longer. I often feel pressured by the maps to play Nurse & Blight because it's just not fun playing a killer who is hard-countered by dropping a pallet and then holding W away. When paired against competent survivors, I stand not much chance on most of these maps. I understand this, and I am not asking for the maps to be tailor made for Billy. But I would most certainly like many of the maps nerfed.
There exist many RNG setups in the game that become exhaustingly overpowered when a skillful survivor attempts to loop them. The map RNG has no contingencies to mitigate the chances of spawning multiple window tiles touching each other. The generic tile-strength rates long-wall-pallet tiles to be the same strength as L-wall pallet tiles, and four lanes. This is insane that long-walls have not ever been nerfed.
Temple of Purgation can get unforgiving RNG with how many safe pallets it gets on an already large map. Disturbed Ward has one of the most overpowered main buildings in the game, that can be easily tied into the surrounding jungle gym tiles. Suffocation Pit's middle is one giant, window-mirroring tile stack and near-anywhere in that map you're hit from, you can usually make it to middle, and you're safe. Groaning Storehouse is huge, and the main is overpowered. Blood Lodge is huge and gets too many pallets. Gas Heaven is huge and gets too many pallets. Rancid Abattoir can have some of the WORST RNG next to shack, and is too easy to turn into one big loop. Rotten Fields is too big, has the worst generator spread, and gets generic, strong pallets that are easily tied into existing jungle gyms, making the loops much bigger. Cowshed exists. Haddonfield has deadzones, but the houses are beyond overpowered, with their insane window vaults. Grim Pantry main needs to be nerfed. All 5 versions of Badham Preschool has 3 main buildings with BUSTED windows. Gideon Meat Factory is one of the stupidest, lazy designs they've ever concocted. Literally 15+ safe-pallets that require no thought to tie together.
Ormond is too big and gets too many pallets. Dead Dawg has too many breakable walls. Eyrie of Crows is giant, and it's littered with safe pallets. Garden of Joy -- the most recent map they've made -- has literal infinite windows in main. You can vault the window indefinitely. And the motel loop easily feeds into shack, which can be tied together with pallets to lead to main. It's one big, busted loop.
I was happy to hear about the perks being nerfed on both sides, but I only hated Dead Hard for how much time it would buy you in chase. If Dead Hard didn't abuse the already broken maps, its effects would've been lessened. Perks were an issue, but they were just one side of an issue that is larger. Breaking pallets quicker, attaining Blood Lust faster, are meaningless when these maps are in such a bad state and there is no limit on RNG in higher MMR.
Comments
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I like your take on this.
I watched Otz' recent video on Nurse, and although I never play Nurse and am not a fan of going against her, I think he's absolutely wrong about the level of skill it requires to take to play her. He forgets that he's Otz, he plays the game for a living, and the fact that he can easily pick up and play Nurse doesn't do much to negate the fact that that she has a 40% kill rate, the lowest in the game, and most people clearly can't just pick her up and 4K every match after practicing for a day the way he thinks they can.
I only point this out because that video got me worried that his opinions might be taken into account in a possible Nurse nerf, since he is perhaps the biggest voice in DBD.
But he's wrong on this one. The fact that Nurse requires such a high amount of skill to play competitively is the best argument for keeping her.
When you get survivors who have played this game for 2,000+ hours, you get survivors who tie multiple different structures into one, long giant loop that wastes your time significantly.
I've started seeing survivors who can do this lately. Shack spawns next to a wall with a window, and you get to choose between getting one down or stopping four generators from popping in the background while you attempt to do so. As an M1 killer main, this isn't fun.
a hacker came into my stream and told me that my MMR was 1835
Dude, what? I wanna know what my MMR is. You can see it somehow?
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It's a combination of maps and matchmaking. Let's assume my Nurse MMR is somewhere in the high 1900s based on what I've been told without giving an exact number.
I do lose games. But it happens rarely and typically only when I get matched against people I recognize from comp. If you round an elite Nurse player down to 1700 and then match them even further down, it's a mismatch to a wild degree. The game should never happen.
What gets lost on people in the Nurse debate is just how bad the matchmaking is. There's little to no space between top killers and absolute average survivors. Average 500 hr survivors are only going to get 1 or 2 gens tops against a Nurse who plays the game at what is essentially a top 500 level. That's a normal expected result in any other game. That's not a balance issue.
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Map offerings should prevent any maps from that realm from appearing
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The only reason I know what my MMR is because the hacker joined my chat and told me. There is no way, without hacking, you can see this information.
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It should be noted the MMR cap is 1900, meaning you can only exist at this number, never exceed it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxPfwB1WBPM&ab_channel=ScottJund)
I believe the MMR testing loosened the +- of the MMR range it would pair you with. I'll need to find a source, but old MMR kept you at a +-250, I believe new MMR is +-500
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Yeah, right on the nose, agreeing with everything you bring up. You got me laughing with the cowshed existing complaint haha. I know eventually it will be tackled but as you said, it doesn't really apply to the mass player-base, so I get it.
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1700 is the current softcap, but you can theoretically gain MMR indefinitely. You're just rounded down to 1700. There's no hard cap. Their latest communication was 1700 soft cap, +/- 350 for matchmaking.
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By "hacking", do you mean "looking at unencrypted files somewhere on your computer with a hex editor" or something more sinister? I don't think BHVR bans people for looking at files.
Official rules state:
Using 3rd party software or other tools to gain any kind of unfair advantage
is what's bannable, so this probably (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong?) doesn't fall into that category unless you have to use some kind of a cheat application during regular gameplay to get the information.
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He himself isn't looking at files or anything like that. Survivors with cheating software that include flying, instant gens, fast heals, etc., often come into his chat during games when going against him and we ask them what his mmr is. They're able to see Name, Cloud ID, MMR, Server, and Steam ID, or that's at least what one of them posted in chat.
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Map design is the biggest Issue to make more killers feel fun yet to say balanced for M1s. Thrilled to kick 20 Pallets as oni on the game before i get one hit in 🤠
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I really appreciate your post and view on the game and I would sign nearly everything you said about the maps and problem with map design.
But the most fascinating part of your post was that DBD-stats page :D Didn't know about that one and its so interesting. Of course, as a killer main, I was interested in comparing our stats and, fine tuning and some outliers aside, I noticed that you got a bit more then 4x my stats in most grindy sections. And low and behold, I got 1.2k hours vs your 5+k hours. This consistency is really amazing and actually shows that the game is probably more balanced then we give it usually credied. Or maybe not "balanced" balanced, but we are both affected by the balancing in a similar way.
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Otz is the equivalent of a gm player matched against golds and thinking the game is balanced because he manages to win.
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I got bored reading all that for nothing, so your point was that Map Offerings busted keeping Nurse OP and letting SoloQ suffer.
I started disagreeing with you when you said Haddonfield was busted. For a Billy main, that's a good map to learn curves. The rest seems like you ranting about how bad you are at the game.
Why not just buff all killers (except Nurse and Blight) and SoloQ so we wouldn't have to feel desperate every time someone brings a Map Offering?
Also, Nurse, without OP addons, is borderline balanced on certain maps, but with the OP addons, she has no business being in the same game as a Trapper or Myers, who you know damn well doesn't have any power against decent survivors yet doesn't get any buffs.
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Maps cause so many issues and yet they get focused on the least, meanwhile most of the band-aids BHVR has thrown on in the form of perks, addons and base mechanics comes from the maps being busted in the first place. Their tile allocation system is absolutely chaotic and can make it a nightmare for both sides, but obviously more often it’s way worse for Killers for reasons you already listed
There are a few RNG combos on a handful of maps that absolutely screw Survivors (Coldwind having 1-4 hooks less than 10 feet apart from each-other is a perfect example) and then the rest of the maps/tiles are completely catered to them. I don’t even see how any of that is debatable, yet there’s still a decent population of delusional DBD players that think everything is strictly user-skill based and that RNG has no impact on the outcomes. I'm pretty sure the person above me is one of em lmao... I’ve been saying the same crap about this topic for years and mayyybe you’ll agree with this:
I don’t expect to win every match on either side nor do I think I’m perfect...BUT the only thing I expect out of DBD is for me to have an honest chance of winning every single match even if I ultimately lose it. If I'm gonna lose to a Team/Killer then please let me lose because I got out-skilled or because me or my teammates made obvious mistakes that would've otherwise given me the win, not because the map/tiles are blatantly catered to the other side. As a competitor it can sting losing a match to players you know you're better than simply because RNG...
When I play for hooks with my Ghostface/Slinger/Trickster instead of hard-tunneling/facecamping on Badham and then 1-2k I don't see them out-mindgaming me or being consistently above my level individually, I just observe that the majority of them are getting boosted by Springwood having 5 safe pallets lined up in between Shack and the Houses of Pain not to mention them spawning directly next to gens ridiculously far away on opposite corners
When I've lost to hard-tunneling Bubbas/Nurses/Nemis on OG Shelter Woods after I won multiple mindgames and escaped from tiles that other players would've gone down super fast at it doesn't really feel like I'm being out-skilled... It feels like I'm being screwed by default because the map has historically been a glorified deadzone with a handful of safe pallets that my teammates could've wasted before I even took aggro
In both cases mistakes can definitely be made sometimes which contributes to losses, but my point is even in a majority of the matches where you play absolutely flawless you're probably still at a clear disadvantage somewhere thanks to RNG out of your control and it could feel stressful even if you win. I think every single experienced DBD vet that plays high MMR Survivor/Killer knows the feeling they get when they load into a match with a specific Killer/Build/Map and immediately think “Yeah this is cringe". I also don’t think enough people play at a decent MMR on Killer (MMR is not working properly at the moment IMO) to really understand how the higher end lobbies really haven’t changed much in terms of the cycle of cheesing on both sides. Nurse only needs an addon pass and a slight tweak to her second blinks counting as M1, NOT a full-blown Hillbilly-esque nerf (Sorry Billy enjoyer, I had to throw that in please don’t hate me)
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Great post. I'd take reverting all of the buffs to killers and nerfs to survivors in the last patch for an overhaul on most maps. You could probably cut every map 25% in size and most of them would still be survivor sided.
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Nurse exists for a specific purpose cause there needs to be killers of that strength however her existence is a mistake to correct the original Sin and her continued existence is now a problem that also prevents other killers from being stronger. With fixed Maps we'd have manny killers close to her level which then would allow for her to be adressed as she'd be even more powerful if not adressed after Maps are fixed.
Like you said, if we fixed Maps, we wouldn't need Nurse as she is. BUT BHVR WON'T FIX MAPS. It's too late and too much work involved for it to happen. They need to redesign the map models, reavaluate tiles strength and limit the RNG. This is clearly way too much work for how much spread they are now with the other 3 games...
Plus we get new Chapters every 3 months. There's more new content being put out than there is changes to older content. I don't see BHVR actually fixing Maps anytime ever... It's gonna be incredibly difficult with such spread resources and with such a time frame to work on.
We already have multiple killers without a dedicated Map. Demogorgon, Ghostface, Bubba, Trickster, Pinhead. And everytime we get a new Map it's the exact same issues so clearly whoever is designing these Maps has a rule they follow and likely they won't stop following those rules now and it's even more unlikely that they'll break those rules and change existing Maps.
We've already changed way too manny Perks and a few core mechanics, alot of survivors are still "adapting", if we could get "new" maps now you'd be throwing every single survivor into a chaotic state of not having anything recognizable. Which ultimatly would leed to alot of frustration from survivor players.
I really do believe it's too late to change Maps.
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You mean general killer buf or specific killer buffs? Cause Nurse benefits from any general killer buffs, like faster recovery, faster kicking etc.
Same applies to SWF benefitting from SoloQ buffs cause each member of the SWF still counts as a single survivor, so any buff each single survivor gets is also making the SWF stronger cause you're giving each individual more to work with.
IT'd be healthier for SoloQ if Blight was a bit nerfed and Nurse removed/reworked. More people would have to pick other killers to play. You'd see more of some other killers and if they become problematic then you can adjust them.
This applies to Bubba, Bubba is the Nº1 Public Camper because he can just insta down multiple people which makes rescues absolutly miserable to attempt so barely anyone tries. And BHVR made camping easier by adding more time on Gens... and tunneling is also easy when you're a Bubba.
Bubba is a great killer if you play him normally, he's plenty strong, can compensate his lack of mobility and map pressure with Perks and quick downs unfortunantly he's also the Ultimate Camper and it's far easier to just Camp when playing Bubba then it is to play the game as you "should". Clearly Bubba needs an adjustment or the game needs a way to prevent Bubba's Camping from being so strong.
Bubba doesn't Camp because of Maps Bubba camps because it's super easy for him.
If i was rich i'd bet MONEY that if we Killswitched Bubba and Nurse, the game would instantly get better for SoloQ and more killer players would have to learn how to play aswell. And if killers were somehow proving to be uneffective, which they honestly shouldn't right now, then you can change each killer individually to make them more in line with what they need.
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Hilarious. It's pretty interesting you say I'm bad at the game and then go on to praise Haddonfield for being a fair Billy map. I guess my 2,000 hours on Billy in high MMR don't matter. Honestly, that's all I really need to know about your opinion on game-balance to tell me everything.
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Nurse has 49% kill rate and average kill rate was around 50-55% in last january so yes she is bit harder based on that. But I bet nurse has now over 50%. She is not that hard like otz says you have not even played yourself you don't know. She is very forgiving you can bit miss the blink but the hits still connect when she had so big lunge and you can miss the first blink and just use the second blink to get hit. If you end up missing both blinks well that just means you have to wait few secs to blink again. So as nurse your allowed to play more poorly other killers are punished lot more from mistakes even if they are easier to use.
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Well nurse would be balanced if every survivor would be tournament player but that is not the case 99% of time.
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If those basekit buffs killers got are meaningless, you wouldnt mind if they were reverted correct?
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It wouldn't change much for me. All of the maps I did poorly on, I still do poorly and all of the maps I do well on, I still do well on.
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I love playing nurse on rpd.
She is finally performing on console at nearly the level of PC.
The game will not be the same if she is changed.
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I've played a few games with Nurse. I've gotten pretty much zero kills with her. She's not easy, and you need to be invested in learning how to play her if you want to get anywhere. People with 800 posts on a DBD forum probably aren't much better judges of the skill required to play a particular killer than Otz is, just by virtue of the fact that you're far more experienced with and invested in the game than most players will ever be.
My guess is that once you start winning games at low MMR with her, you'll start running across survivors who know how to double back or otherwise counter her as far as she can be countered, and then your kill rates will plummet again until you really get good. And that's the learning curve.
When I first started playing the game, I had no idea Nurse was considered the strongest killer. When I came across one, I'd be like, "Oh, good. It's a Nurse. This is going to be a chill game." An experienced Nurse is impossible to win against, but a baby Nurse is the easiest killer to win against.
Maybe I'll try playing some more Nurse and see if it changes my opinion, but my guess is that I don't get anything out of my first 50 games.
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In all fairness, Hillbilly is the hardest killer to master since in-game there are a lot of moving parts to consider with their power, and also because of how weak their power is in general.
Nurse doesnt really need addons to perform well, and addons only make counterplay even more difficult and make up for the downsides of their power. Ranged addons are insanely problematic, they reduce the distance survivors gain and increase the speed at which you blink giving less time for survivors to react. There is little to no downsides for using these addons, this is horrible design.
Hillbilly's speed addons increases the charge time for their chainsaw but makes them move faster and overheat less as a result. This is good design, since it requires the player to play with their addons heavily in mind, as well as restrict what areas they can use their power effectively. It creates a situation where skill and knowledge can be applied to make your power more effective but still have restrictions to balance things out. And to hit survivors, you really need speed addons, since the default speed is way too slow to really hit survivors in most cases.
But why does Hillbilly have to deal with this when their power is undeniably worse than Nurse's power? Hillbilly has to constantly deal with his overheat mechanic for using their power, but a killer like Nurse has very little downtime between using their power, which again, is undeniably better than Hillbilly's power. (I know that some person will respond saying "but hey, Hillbilly is an insta-down killer, and Nurse isnt, so of course their power is going to be harder to use", and Id like to remind people that Starstruck + Agitation Nurse is a thing that exists, Nurse has access to Exposed perks like every other killer in the game, who thought this was a good design choice?)
Also I agree with the map design also being another issue. Breaking a pallet 10% quicker doesnt solve how many pallets solve on The Game, nor does it solve how strong god pallets are. Gaining Bloodlust quicker doesnt solve how awful some loops are for killer, or how strong tilesets can spawn facing into one another. Recovering from a hit quicker (and getting less of a speed boost) doesnt solve the issue of holding W at all, since people will just move onto other methods of doing such. 90 seconds generators dont solve how large maps are and how hard it is to pressure generators on large maps. All of these dont solve the issues of horrible map design, and they are just adding more fuel to the fire for maps that were more balanced or didnt favor survivors as much.
A map like Garden of Joy is always going to be horrible for Hillbilly, since the map design doesnt cater to their ability. The changes feel otherwise useless, since most, if not all, dont really affect you as a player. Things feel just as they were before the update. But a map like Garden of Joy for Nurse? It's just like every other map where Nurse becomes a SoloQ/Pub Match stomping machine, even more amplified by 90 second generators.
So yea, Nurse is problematic, and this game's killer balance is very poor since there is such a huge different between low-tier and high-tier killers, and the mid-chapter update which bandaid fixed the issues is starting to have it's adhesive wear down and it's half torn off, and more people are starting to realize this. It's not a bad update, they just could have done way better, things feel as if a lot of shortcuts were taken and it really is starting to show.
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Sorry I misspelled english is not my first language otz actually said nurse is not that hard and I agree watch his latest nurse video. First few games you ofcourse struggle with nurse because she is different from all other killers. But if you play bit more you will learn how to blink. I consistently gotten 4K with her but stopped playing her because I like more normal game play and you still need to focus more playing her than on other more simpler killers. I think for me it took 5 games to figure out the blinking well enough to start winning games.
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I love how you boast your ego in the very first sentence of this thread.
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It's not ego if he can statistically verify it.
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He may play the game for a living, but Nurse is still WAY different compared to any other killer out there and basically plays her own game.
One thing that is probably the reason why her killrate is so low is the numerous amount of misconceptions about her, mainly about how you need to predict where a Survivor is going to be. When in reality you want to eliminate as many options as possible so you dont have to guess.
Her difficulty really is exaggerated, shes no where near as difficult as most people claim to be, if she was so difficult you wouldnt be seeing her dominate a lobby every second game
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I don't see her dominate a lobby every second game. I see her maybe once every ten or twenty games. My survivor MMR is probably much lower than my killer MMR. I see a lot of Huntress, Plague, Spirit, Pyramidhead, Hag. When I do see Nurse, it's still a coin toss whether we're all going to be dead in two minutes or whether she's going to spend all game accidentally teleporting into the basement while we run her around the shack.
I don't know how high my killer MMR is, but I know that people in endgame chat tell me things like "I almost never see Clown" and I'm starting to see survivors with 1-2k hours who can make plays that are incredibly difficult to get around as an M1 killer without playing dirty and/or running quadruple slowdown (so I play dirty and run quadruple slowdown), and I'm sure I'm not maxed out yet. I can see the appeal of Nurse.
If you're in such MMR, aren't you winning the 50% of your games that aren't against Nurse?
The only way they could really justify nerfing Nurse is if they buffed killers across the board again to make other killers competitive at very high MMR, which would give survivor mains an aneurysm.
I'm not arguing that Nurse is fair, but I think that people who have thousands of hours in the game are underestimating her difficulty. It doesn't seem to make sense nerfing her when survivors can rings around every other killer at high MMR, and you only see her every other game at high MMR.
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Not sure how high my MMR is, but I see Nurse more often than any other killer nowadays.
Also no, killers have gotten enough buffs with this latest patch and it was done perfectly, killers that needed it like Trapper, Ghost Face, etc benefitted from it while killers like Blight and Nurse remained the same. It closed the gap between the top tiers and lower tiers tremendously.
And I have won games against other killers, lost some as well. Nurse on the otherhand? Could count on 1 hand the amount of times I got a 4 man out, and can count on both hands how many times I've reached end game.
Also, "making killers competitive at a very high MMR" was already the case prior to the patch. Its just killer actually takes time to learn and people don't like investing time into getting good at something nowadays. Its why every one always opts for the easy way out. So Nurse it is.
Also Nurse has every reason to get nerfed or even reworked. She's stayed at the top ever since her release and its time for change. No reason why a killer can remain leagues better than any other killer for years. Killers got enough buffs this patch, they're in a good spot (5k hours, 50/50 player)
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Unless the hacker I was playing against lied, you can exceed 2k.
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Nerfing maps is a little more complicated than making maps smaller. It would also need to address the abundance of pallets. Effectively, "w-gaming", or holding the w-key from loop-to-loop would no longer need to be meta. I heard someone say survivors should get slowed down when they're not in a jungle-gym. Like, running from one jungle-gym to the next would make them move at a slower speed, but being inside of a jungle-gym would make them move at 100% movement speed. This, of course, would require a significant balance overhaul, but it's an idea on how to address w-gamers. Just an idea.
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