Balancing around bad killers is ruining the game
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So many crap in one post, holy.
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Honestly I believed that at first too but really if you think about it, I think 3 second DS is fine.
DS didnt necessarily help you against Nurse or Blight anyway and hurted killers that didnt need to be hurt anymore than they already do like Trapper and Pig
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Survivors can absolutely go on monster win streaks, just look at hens, and thats WITH a self imposed perk stacking restriction and no items except ones looted from previous games. Imagine if they weren't imposing those restrictions on themselves and instead stacked 2-4 of all the strongest perks and brought BNP boxes or Syringe/styptic medkits every game. They would never lose.
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I don’t think “camping and tunneling” are actually balance issues per se, they’re more issues with how much people enjoy the games they lose. Literal facecamping for example is actually a suboptimal strategy in most cases, you’re better off doing a more proactive strategy of seeking out survivors after a hook to ensure only at most one is on a gen at a time, ideally in a zone defense where you are keeping a three or four gen area clear and hooking survivors in or near that area.
What people really dislike, though, is downtime and midgame player elimination. And that’s where camping and tunneling generate complaints. Yeah, if I sit at the hook as killer I’m usually decreasing my chances of winning, but that doesn’t make it any less boring being stuck in a hook and then immediately redowned if I’m pulled off over the course of two or three minutes straight. It’s a more fun loss if I get hooked, get rescued, doing some gens, get downed again, get rescued again, do gens some more, etc.
There might be some mechanisms that can steer killers away from facecamping, such as in the new Reassurance perk that’s coming out. I don’t know much can be done about so called tunneling though since that’s more directly tied to how the game is unfortunately built using permanent player elimination and I’m not sure how to avoid eliminating players early without getting rid of it altogether.
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Kinda ironic someone who faked a kill streak to gain attention and stir up drama is talking about something being "facts" and "reality"
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That is not true. Survivors are already neg-broken before 6.1.0. They gave killers new meta perks like erruption and pain reso while survivors got #########.
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Depends on what side of the mmr scale you are.
Low MMR, killers are stronger.
Mid MMR, about average both ways.
High MMR, survivor stronger.
Even when survivors got nothing worth of perks, they still kept the same strong meta perks.
Making high MMR a pretty sweat hell for killers tbh
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If by "neg-broken" you mean underpowered, no. You were bad at Survivor if you constantly lost, if you consistently lose now, you're still bad.
Survivor still is the power-role, you just have to be good at Survivor now
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I second that. Against a nurse every blink turns into a mind game. Make her waste more blinks then she lands and eventually your team might pull ahead or she might even brake chase.
I usually double back two times, against most nurses this works surprisingly well. After this I fake it but actually hold W. After this I surprise myself how I react. Some games I totally fall flat with this tactic, others I make the nurse look like a bumbling idiot who is too afraid to look me in the eyes and instead just stares at her feet.
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You always make some good points then you say things like "they slightly nerfed Thana" and then it's hard for anyone to take what you say seriously.
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I did try facecamping bubba but it's still gives only 2K. I didn't have any slow down or noed though. But I was expecting 4K both team I faced had gen perks and toolboxes.
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Tbh for me whenever i see the name Sluzzy, I don't even take the post seriously anymore.
I just read a few words other than the title and immediately am discouraged to keep reading.
They've been trolling to many times to be taken seriously for me.
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They are done with the standards BHVR have set in place, BHVR themselves have seen the qualification for what does and doesnt count as a win. Qualifying what counts as a win is based on the MMR win and various rating conditions.
For Killer
0-1 Kills = Loss, Restart
2 Kills = Tie, Restart
3-4 Kills = Win, Continue
For Survivor (SWF)
0-1 Escapes = Loss, Restart
2 Escapes = Tie, Restart
3-4 Escapes = Win, Continue
For Survivor (SoloQ)
Death = Loss, Restart
Escape = Win, Continue
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You can mask it as “QoL” changes but it doesn’t change the fact that it inevitably made those playstyles more present because the devs essentially gave you more time.
I love how you downplay the changes as if they weren’t significant. It’s especially noticeable to those of us who did not need the extra 10 seconds or the faster pallet breaking etc.
I mean I guess if you needed your hand held I can understand but otherwise I disagree that these changes didn’t change “much”, cuz they did.
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Legion and Plague was really unaffected so how was it not a slight nerf? BHVR made sure those killers would still be grossly oppressive.
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All you really need is to have a single person healed against Legion to shut down Thanatophobia. Healing perks, and decent medkits still make Legion not too huge of a threat. Inner-Healing also is really good at shutting down Thanatophobia.
As for Plague, over-cleansing exists for a reason. Survivors can corrupt all fountains which causes them to reset, Plague gets Corrupt Purge but they only get it for 60 seconds (cannot be extended by addons unlike the Corrupt Purge obtained by fountains themselves). You shutdown Plague's usage of Thanatophobia and get rid of a lot of Corrupt Purge usages.
I know you might say "oh, but SoloQ doesnt have that coordination", but like, as soon as a single person cleanses, everyone else cleanses, it's for a reason ya know. You literally get an audio cue for when it happens, so you can tell when survivors are mass cleansing and when to join them.
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Thtas literally what hens' win streak is. Win is 3 escapes or more.
He's playing in a 4 man SWF with no items except the ones looted from previous matches and a restriction on stacking more than 1 of the same perk. I believe he went on a win streak of around 180 before losing it then they restarted and are currently around 230 wins I believe.
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You keep repeating yourself Sluzzy still saying everything is nerfed and Survivor is to hard and can never win yet this is only your games this isn't the millions of other players that are playing Survivor I play solo all the time I win some and I loose some it's not impossible just play the game and enjoy it as best as you can rather than complain about every little change that gets implemented for Survivors and Killers all the time.
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Evidence schmevidence. You've never once backed your claims up with actual data from the devs. All you ever have is anecdotal evidence and that just doesn't cut it. The fact of the matter is that the argument can be made both ways, whether you like it or not.
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The devs don't target 50% kill rate.
They target 60% kill rate
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game has honestly felt pretty decent for both sides the last few days. Maybe the fact that you have 3k posts is ruining the game :\
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Videos don't lie. Killer mains are always winning while survivors are usually losing. What more evidence do we need? The game is being balanced for bad killers.
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They should definitely add more options for the survivors to be stealthy.
I personally enjoy the hide and seek aspect of the game more than the chase aspect of it
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Didn’t BHVR say an extremely small fraction of players are in high MMR? They didn’t give us direct numbers but they disclosed that very, very few players are in high MMR. And at mid MMR killers are still more advantaged than survivors.
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People who play 20+ hours a week for literally years should win most of the time. . . . . . Even they still lose pretty regular. Otz has basically stopped doing 50 win streaks on killers because MMR makes it nearly impossible. Four good (not even great) survivors will usually get to end game. Killers usually have a few distinct advantages in end game.
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you are the seer of truth that we need, not the one we asked for or deserve.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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To be fair, the DS nerf was absolutely horrible. But the DH nerf was more than necessary. Good killers didn't know how to play around old DH because you couldn't play around it if it was used for distance. Like it's not even hard to understand how you couldn't play around DH for distance.
Circle of Healing is also still very strong.
Instead, the devs should focus on fixing actual problems in the game. Killer is still not easy if you go against good survivors, and it probably won't ever be. You still need to play very well as killer. But problems like camping and tunneling exist, giving killers cheap and easy wins when they didn't deserve them. So I have no idea why anyone would want to have broken perks like DH reverted again, instead of fixing the actual problems survivors have.
Also, killers now don't need skill to down a survivor because of the DH nerf? What on earth? Have you missed the part where survivors can still loop and outplay the killer properly, instead of just pressing a button?
I think it's interesting that you say that the game shouldn't be balanced around bad killers, meanwhile you clearly want the game to be balanced around bad survivor players like yourself.
Your comparison between survivor and killer perks also just doesn't work at all. Like not at all. Everything in this post is yet again just so bad honestly.
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"They are dead when the match starts" There is just no way you are that bad at survivor. How do you not see the irony in your posts?
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So then balancing around bad killers is bad but balancing around bad survivors is good?
Don't confuse your opinion with factual evidence. They only “evidence” you have here that they balance for very bad killers is your opinion that they do.
Opinion does not equal fact.
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Observations lead to facts. Survivors have been consistently nerfed while killers consistently buffed since the game was released. The evidence is the trends.
Good killers has never had issues winning consistently but yet killers were buffed anyway. They buffing to balance around bad killers.
Survivors and killers are not held to the same standards.
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I use COH as solo survivor and, hes fine and help me a lot and others....
i use new dead hard and, he is better than before, but, you need skill for use him now.
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I agree except for DH, I wish they'd revert everything from 6.1 except dead hard game was a lot more fun for both sides
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"Of course it sometimes, albeit rarely in specific scenarios extended the chase under very specific circumstances but shouldn't that what a perk does? Help you survive?"
@Sluzzy Dead Hard for distance happened way more often than you are implying here and saved many survivors from death. The argument can be made that some survivors relied a bit too much on this "skillful play" and are having to adapt which takes time.
Same thing happened when balanced landing was changed to make it less strong.
Players are already adapting and escaping more. Just not as much as before.
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Let me correct you unbiased observation leads to facts.
trust me it’s my job for the better part of 20 years.
You can give your opinion, you can even design tests to qualitatively test an idea but what you are offering here is the same thing you always do… your biased opinion passed off as some form of expertise.
Give your opinion but don’t commit the sin of confusing it with factual evidence that my friend is heinous. Even when it comes to something as silly as a computer game.
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Killers rely on slowdown and aura perks and they still exists even stronger than before. Why are survivors expected to always adapt and do without yet killers still get anything and everything? If I am playing survivor I don't get faster for playing poorly.
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You completely ignore the years of survivors running wild and the killer role being one that was avoided by most players.
Now see how they flock to the role and learn how it feels to kill. This was intended. It emboldened the ones who were afraid.
You know the balance will shift again. Let them taste the blood and hear the screams for just a little while longer.....
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Dead hard being too strong was an opinion of killers. Decisive strike needing the fourteenth nerf was an opinion. Here we are and now survivor is unplayable.
I can't even play it seriously any more. If killer knows how to play then it turns into an altruism game.
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No Sluzzy, Dead Hard being too strong was a fact. Killers knew it, Survivors knew it, the Devs knew it, Maurice knew it. Everyone knew it.
70%+ pickrate, Sluzzy. A perk doesn't get a 70% pickrate by being a perk that "rarely comes into play".
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The survivor meta had to be changed. The way the game was balanced basically reduced the almost 100 perk pool to 8.
DS was so pervasive and punishing that at the top 1/3rd ranks, survivors had an effective 5 perk slots if they *didn't* run DS, because a killer couldn't dare risk not playing around it. Same with DH. Killers would take an extra 2-3 seconds before ending a chase to play around it AND because it had a built in sprint, you could use it to extend chases with no counterplay.
So you got benefit from those perks, whether you ran them or not, just simply because they exist. That's too strong.
The problem - as always - is at low to mid ranks, Survivors have never been OP. The game is much easier for a bad or average killer than it is for a bad or average survivor.
You try to make killer fun at high end with blanket nerfs to survivor, the mid to low survivor experience swings very out-of-whack. If the game is miserable at low to mid ranks, most quit before getting good.
Not really sure what BHVR can do to achieve reasonable balance across all ranks than have different rules at different MMR.
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Sigh.
Here we go again.
- What discussions?
- I looked. I found one guy with a Nurse streak and Otz, and the only major streak he's managed was during MMR testing.
- You're kidding, right? There are SWFs with 100 escapes +
- CoH...what? CoH was barely nerfed, and it's still amazing.
- Dead Hard was so imbalanced that it was creeping up on 75% useage at higher MMRs.
- This game is not and cannot be balanced around solos.
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So it is only fact if killers say so, and Maurice too.
Completely disregarding it was fun to use as that might contribute to part of the popularity. Games should be fun.
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Offering up some other biased opinions as rationale for your own doesn't give it more credit, it just becomes an example of another biased irrational opinion.
Survivor is not unplayable, it may be to you but its not for a very large number of gamers. So basically that's BS try again.
Now survivor might be unplayable for you, but that's a you problem, and if we balance around players whom are bad at survivor, then how is that different from balancing the game around killers who are bad? <--- A game ruining proposition according to the core of your topic.
Its just as one sided and silly of a point, but I guess when the point favours your view its ok when it doesn't its bad, this is sounding less factual and more like opinionated bias by the minute.
You are welcome to dislike elements of the game and give reasons why you might not like it and even make suggestions but...
When you frame it as factual evidence of design flaws with enough clout to call game stats into question then you are putting way to much stock in your own opinion.
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Games should be fun on both sides and trust me killer side was not fun before. Now its ok. I still have multiple matches where i only get 0-1 kills because survivors are good, but at least they dont get free escapes anymore.
Survivor is so much more fun now to play because i have to rely on my skills more than 2 perks that carried the whole match.
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There is a lot of discussion about how killers have effortless winstreaks and all you have to do is watch Twitch or Youtube to find the evidence. This is why stats need to be looked at with caution.
Killers don't have the winstreaks that experienced survivors possess and I think this is bad for the game because it shows unfairness and most importantly a grossly unbalanced game.
Killer is not as fun as it used to be because of too many nerfs and a lack of motivation and chance to win. This is because of balancing around bad survivors. Ruin, Pop, Thanato and NOED have been changed into survivor sided perks and removes players agency from killer.
Pop goes to Weasel: A perk that takes away from doing the objective (to win) to setup a way to slow down generators. It was nerfed so much that it was less worthwhile than using thanatophobia. Thanatophobia is now nerfed so bad that both is not acceptable or most importantly fun to use. The ability to slow down generators by just a little by injuring survivors takes too much time, meanwhile it is easy for survivors to continue with their objective. Good survivors can capitalize with no way for killers to overcome.
Ruin: The killer plays better than the survivor for the entirety of the match but the killer is punished for playing well and the perk is disabled once you kill someone, for bad survivors. The nerf to 100% of the normal Regression speed also rewards bad survivor gameplay. It is not fair survivors have perks that guarantee their wins but killers do not have any that helps them win. Survivors can play badly and killer does not have a way to overcome it.
NOED: Good survivors knew how to play around old NOED as evidence by watching killers play. Of course it sometimes, albeit rarely in specific scenarios reduced the chase under a very specific circumstances but shouldn't that what a perk does? Help you to win chases? The perk is now nerfed so survivors do not have to think about the perk which is bad design. Survivors do not need skill to search the totem now because it's aura is showed to survivors. With a minute of aura activation, the perk is unusable due to being easily spotted even for bad survivors. The new form is not fun to use, at the cost of balancing for bad survivors.
Balancing so survivor perks automatically reward the survivor in so many ways with no downsides while killer perks have too many downsides, too many deactivation conditions/cooldowns has caused the game to lose its fun factor for killer side. This is why killer is not as fun as it used to be because of lack of valid options. Experienced survivors capitalize on these lacks of options for killer to guarantee their wins. This causes killers to have no hope in a majority of matches.
as you can see i can use your same logic aganist you...
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Quick point: I think the game has to be balanced around solos first - I'm willing to bet the vast majority of players queue solo.
If and when you accomplish that, you can then add penalties to SWFs to prevent the game from being outright trivial, be it MMR inflation or certain static penalties applied to each member of a SWF, scaling based on how many members are in the SWF.
That's the way I think it should be done IMHO.
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