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You will never win as killer if you're not tunneling at high level play
I'm dumbfounded how people don't understand the root cause of trying to kill someone as fast as possible. Some survivor mains take it as a personal attack to their ego and think the person just wants to ruin "their" fun but the reality is the time difference of hooking survivors without them dying compared to generator repair speed is ridiculously unfair. Their needs to be an incentive to actually have the fun of going for chases without being punished for literally doing the fun gameplay part of dead by daylight. Here is an idea how about after hooking someone you see a generator aura brighter if its at a higher level of completion and base regression kick gets increased to 10% or have the tick increased to 500%.
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It's funny that you think you're playing at a high level.
I will grant you that, at the highest level, you do end up needing to tunnel or camp in some regard.
However, the VAST majority of players will never see that level of play. I don't even see that play consistently. Most players that do tunnel and camp use it as a crutch. It's easy and it works but it can destroy your growth as a Killer.
Post edited by Pulsar on32 -
Literally as I type a post about this exact same thing.
We know what the most efficient way to win is, dude. It's just really lame for everyone involved. You don't need to ready the siege defenses every time someone says the word "tunneling".
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I've seen multiple people who claim they're at "high level play" or what have you and who also stream, obviously out of interest you check their stream and then it's just sweaty perks & playstyle with very mediocre gameplay and opponents.
There are are a few people whose word I'd take for it but not many of them, especially on here
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I don't think many people play against high-level opponents consistently.
I get them on certain Killers at certain times of night occasionally. With how bad the MMR and matchmaker is, anyone who says they only play at a high-level is immediately omega-sus to me.
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U dont have to directly tunnel someone out, but should have someone as your primary target, if you focus on only one survivor at all time the other 3 wont have any pressure on them and work on gens with an ease
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I see a lot of good players do this pseudo-tunnel style where they will focus two survivors interchangeably to avoid second chance perks and more or less ignore the other two unless they are out of position. It seems alright.
Not going to lie, if I want to win, I will hard tunnel someone. Easier that way.
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Survivors are receiving defenses to that. Eventually, you won’t be able to do it at all. Cuz one thing about DBD—survivor mains will shut this game down. Long queue times are not fun.
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You do realize that the long queues are because more people are playing killer currently, right?! Both sides are killing the game cause of the false mindset that there are win conditions. THERE ARE NONE. No one has common sense and realize the whole point of DBD is to LITERALLY get as many BPS as you can.
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I think BHVR defined a win for survivors as escaping through the exit gates. Interestingly, this awards survivors the most bloodpoints during a match.
Things are different for killers…
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The devs have said that only a very small percentage of players are actually in high MMR. And the survivors who are in there are likely your veteran coordinated swfs on comms. If a killer is consistently facing those sorts of players then not being able to tunnel may actually be a blessing - their MMR may drop enough that they get more manageable survivors.
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OP is right though.
Even in tournament play, killers are consistently tunneling, also camping the hook quite commonly. Just watch this game:
In the first 4 games of this tournament every time the killer would try very hard to tunnel only one person. And the only game where they didn't manage to tunnel was a 4-man escape:
- Game 1 : straight up facecamp, then tunneling despite DS, teammates body blocking, and even using For the People on Nea. Nea gets hooked 3 times in a row with only one person getting hooked in between. Result: 4 kills
- Game 2: straight up tunneling, Jake gets hooked 3 times in a row before anybody else gets hooked once. Result: 4K
- Game 3 : killer downs Adam but decides not to tunnel him for no apparent reason. Then decides to tunnel Claudette, who gets hooked 3 times in a row despite DS. Result: 2K
- Game 4 : No tunneling. Result: 0K
I didn't watch the other games but I imagine the trend doesn't change.
Keep in mind, this is not against random solo queue players who don't know how to counter tunneling, this is a SWF who all run DS and try to protect the tunneled person by body blocking / hiding him / even using For the People.
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Honestly just swap between two players
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There's also money to be won in the tournaments. I'd play dirty to get some nice cash, no problem.
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i don't remember the exact rules in that tournament, but tournaments have perk balancing, all survivors don't have DS, tournaments either only allow 1 DS, and some even have DS banned completely. The exception to this was the wispy tournament which was a free for all with minimum/no balancing.
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Literally nobody plays tournaments for fun.
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That's cool.
seems like you didn't understand what I wrote.
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You said that high-level killers need to tunnel based on RNG. Which is total nonsense as tournament players do it consistently even against organized SWFs who use DS / body block / For the People etc.
Sorry for not addressing the rest of your message where you claim essentially that OP is a low-level scrub, I thought that was condescending and off-topic
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Tournament players aren't high level players. They are beyond that. You won't find them in public matches pretty much ever. They are completely irrelevant to public games.
High-level players are just normal people who are good at the game. The best of pubs, so to speak.
In high-level public matches, you will find that you do not always need to tunnel. Sometimes, you just get good RNG. Often times, you don't.
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And I argue that you don't have to see tournament level survivors to be beaten; just good enough survivors will do. Gen speed, arbitrary time waste at loops, and second chance perks stop the killer from killing the survivors on time. Their skill isn't enough to win, so they have to turn to strategies and perk/add-on loadouts to maybe see a chance of winning. Even if the survivors do go down quick or make multiple misplays, there's not much room to punish them. You're on a strict curfew, and spending just 20 seconds chasing 1 person can be game-losing. Why else would killer players pick the strongest killers, perks, and playstyles even at the cost of ceasing to learn their killer?
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Because, at the end of the day, people enjoy winning more than being skilled.
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"Their skill isn't enough to win, so they have to turn to strategies and perk/add-on loadouts to maybe see a chance of winning"
Aren't you here complaining about how your skill isn't enough to win, so you have to turn to strategies and perk/add-on loadouts to maybe see a chance of winning?
Why is it that when survivors use anti-camp/anti-tunnel perks, they're unskilled and using them as a crutch, but when a killer relies on tunnelling and camping, it's because the game is unfair?
It's that classic 'Survivors win = survivors OP, killer wins = survivors bad' mindset.
Why is skill not a considered factor for killers?
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While I agree that against high level survivor teams most killers regularly need some degree of camping and tunnelling in order to be able to compete and succeed, and that camping and tunnelling nerfs therefore have to go in hand with buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay/individual buffs for a bunch of killers, in the majority of pub matches you really don't need to camp or tunnel to be able to succeed. Depends on the map, the killer you are playing and your loadout of course, but yeah, I usually even go out of my way not to camp or tunnel and still average more than 2 kills, and I'm pretty certain I'm well beyond the MMR cap on all my killers. I in fact often find it mind-numbingly boring to employ camping and tunnelling in pubs because it makes winning too easy much of the time. I don't frequently watch many of the killer streamers I used to anymore because most of them camp and tunnel and win much too dominantly much too often, only seldomly even being challenged. Just not entertaining. Had hoped MMR would change something about this, but the cap is just too low, the matchmaker too lax.
Anyway, I care more about chasing survivors than I do about killing them, that's actually rewarding gameplay to me, so most of the time I'll just commit to a chase on anyone I find until I down them, no matter what. Not saying other people should also consider whether they don't want to shift priorities to care more about chasing than killing, but either way, in pubs, as a competent-and-above killer player, you can absolutely go for 10+ hooks pretty consistently without camping or tunnelling. You'll definitely get less kills and lose more games than you would otherwise, but you'll still be winning comfortably more than half the time. Good killers that play hard win 90+% of their pub matches, and who really needs that?
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You're not listening. In other games, being skilled is what causes you to win, but that also includes using the best strategies available, which would be that game's equivalent of camping or tunneling.
I can see where this is going, and I'm not interested in having yet another "You should play in a way that causes you to lose because it's more fun" type of conversation, so I'm gonna end it here.
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I need that. My nurse and blight winrate are above 90%, and I don’t use regression.
- Nurse : Lethal, BBQ, Starstruck, Agitation
- Blight : Lethal, BBQ, Enduring, Spirit fury
But I would not play for less than 4k, or else I get a lot of toxicity in end game chat and steam comments. I used to play less sweaty with fun perks, my favorite were franklin, spies, forced penance, and devour. But I got A LOT of toxicity for not playing sweaty, so I don’t see why I should care about the other side fun now. My main strategy is to hard tunnel a survivor to death, usually the weakest link while pressuring gens / others survivors with mobility.
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Because killer perks literally require them to play more skillfully to get use out of them, whereas survivor perks are kind of just there, and the more powerful ones can be used offensively despite being defensive perks. For example Ruin, Pop, and Pain Res got called OP and nerfed even though they only reward killers who left hook and went for multiple chases. The people who say killers got carried by those perks despite camping are wrong; it's their bad play, allowing the killer to get off multiple uses of those perks while they're supposedly camping, that caused them to lose. We've seen time and again that even with 4 gen defence perks and whether the killer camped or was always being in chase, killers aside from Nurse and Blight couldn't have won, because the survivors were too efficient on gens.
That's why killers camp and tunnel: the race against time. Survivors don't have an option to do gens in a skillful way. They just do them, although it's their decision to be efficient or not. On the killer side, being efficient and playing skillfully are considered polar opposites, because the skill is all in the chase. If the killer camps or tunnels, they have to do less chases which is them being efficient on their time. Going for multiple chases, you can end chases very quickly, but it's inefficient unless it immediately results in a survivor being sacrificed. That's why it's hard to play like that and still win, because while you're wasting time displaying skill instead of being efficient, survivors have no reason to not be efficient on gens, and they almost always beat you to the punch.
I for one want to see Reassurance in action, and I'm hoping it will be as good as I'm predicting it will be. I want to see if it stops camping and, if so, I want to see how well killers do by not camping. That doesn't mean that I'm optimistic about how killers are gonna perform though. What I like about Reassurance, and Kinship, is that it's for a survivor who's on the hook, not a survivor who's off the hook.
Anti-tunnel perks are the problematic ones, because just about every time they've been strong or buffed, they've been used offensively. DS, Mettle Of Man, BT, Off The Record, base Endurance, the works. Those are constantly used to protect the unhooker, who everyone thinks the killer is obligated to go for. Unless we want to talk about the game having some sort of body blocking detection system, we're admitting that these defensive perks become problematic when their uses exceed just making unhooked survivors safer. That's why they're crutch, because the unhooker didn't do anything to evade the killer in that interaction. Some random other survivor, since they could afford to take a hit or 2 because of their perks, jumped in the way and extended the chase for the person being chased when they should have been downed.
The killer main message that says that survivors win because they're OP, and killers win because the survivors are bad is mostly true. Survivors have enough tools, time, and killer weaknesses to exploit so that they can beat the killer on pretty much any given map. But I want to focus on that second part, that bad survivors is what allow killers to win. It's true for all killers except maybe Nurse and Blight, because they are so strong that they can play catch-up with the survivors having a lead on their objective. I don't care how creative your traps are as Trapper or how good your curving is as Hillbilly, how smart your snare placement is as Freddy or how good your reactions are with Deathslinger, you're not beating good survivors with that stuff. Their gen speed will be too quick to manage and they'll have too many second chance perks. You can beat bad survivors with that, because they take unnecessary risks and think that they can't be organized just because they don't have comms. They also don't seem to want to run strong perks or even items, but then they're the ones complaining about the strong stuff killers have?
Skill is considered a factor for killers. It's not included in a lot of discussions even though it should, but it's absolutely tied to game balance. The killer has to down really fast to get the best use out of perks like Pop and Pain Res, but to down fast you have to end chases fast, and that takes skill. Some loops you're forced to brute force until the pallet is down, like shack, because you'll waste an equal or greater amount of time trying to mindgame there. You can mindgame a survivor at a place like that, and that's skill, but the survivor had to make the mistake to allow your skill to matter. But assume the survivor doesn't get mindgamed there. That's still your skill you were trying to use but couldn't do anything with, similar to survivors being camped to death. Camping a survivor doesn't take much skill, but it saves you the pain of going through 1-2 more of those chases where you have to waste an arbitrary amount of time, and where your skill didn't matter that much, only for the survivors to win in the end. I think what most people who hate camping do is they say, "It takes no skill" and call it a day, and don't really go into why killers do it, or they do and they say, "Yeah, but the killer still shouldn't do it." Killers find places to use their skill when they can, but when they can't, you see what they do instead.
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The killer main message that says that survivors win because they're OP, and killers win because the survivors are bad is mostly true.
Based on what? Kill rates, as far as we know, never dipped below 50%. Red ranks used to have kill rates approaching 70%, and this same argument was tossed around back then, too. You toss out a crapton of words without actually addressing the matter. You just open with a blanket statement about game balance and about how killers just can't win, but you're extremely reluctant to consider any killer faults.
you're not beating good survivors with that stuff
No, YOU aren't beating good survivors with that stuff. Other killer players do. That's kind of the problem I'm highlighting. There's a lot of words going on here, but very little argumentation on the actual balance. Killer skill is not considered in these kind of diatribes. The fact that you complain about 'second chance' perks does kinda highlight that: None of the second chance perks (Barring OTR) work if you don't allow them to. Especially DS. But these perks still see regular complaints. It's a go-to complaint for killers, honestly, despite these perks being negligible to anyone who gives them a modicum of counterplay.
But survivors OP because you can't hard-tunnel into an anti-tunnelling perk and win anyway.
I mean, 6.1.0 gave a ton of buffs to killers, and if anything, the 'survivors OP' complaints have -increased-. It's just indicative that killers aren't fairly considering whether they made any mistakes or errors and would rather just camp and tunnel to break the game down, and use that as leverage to try and enforce more changes in their favour.
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I don't think former survivor players switching to killer is because of a want to win; more so because they do not enjoy playing survivor again (which could be because of several reasons : having to re-learn other playstyles if their perks of choice got nerfed, the cheater wave, the camping and tunneling fashion of the moment, which regardless of their legitimacy ruins the fun when you're survivor, etc.).
Plus, if the whole point of DbD is to get as many bloodpoints as you can, then it's more practical to play killer, as they get consistently more bloodpoints than survivors (a bad game as killer will award you as much as a medium game as survivor)... Yet another reason why people are switching to killer currently as the prestige rework means a lot of people have to grind a lot.
Thankfully, this aspect will get better with the incentives and the bloodweb prices rework.
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yeah but tunneling will be made harder with the 10 sec BT and 10% haste. If you run guardian you will be 117% movement speed which is ridiculous as you will be faster than 4.4 m/s killers. Reassurance still will be a meta perk it will kill camping
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Doubt reassurance will see much play but hopefully it becomes meta.
Survivors wasting 1 perk on something i wasnt going to do would be great.
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killers mostly camp in low-mid mmr and in end game to secure a kill it will be pretty useful but to be honest guardian or borrowed time are still better. If you use borrowed time after the wesker patch, the survivor you rescued will have 20 second endurance which is very op plus the 10% haste
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Forget about Comp DbD, Comp DbD is the perfect place to scream about Camping and Tunneling, it's not high level play at all. It's just a matter of who gets camped and tunneled first, and harder...
Comp DbD and the idea of Comp DbD itself is a joke. They prepare themselves for a 1k with the possibility of a 2k and that's a Win for them because their whole system is based on Point Rewards for actions and not letting survivor get rescues or heals is alot of points survivors don't make. Therefore the best way to win in Comp DbD is to make sure someone is not getting anything at all and to guarantee you get your kill points.
It's why the JP BHVR endorseded DbD ps4 tournament had a Pig as the winning killer...Tunneling active RBTs and preventing them to get them off meant getting kills without having to hook even and they used the busted add-on combo aswell...
Comp DbD is the worst thing for DbD pathwise and Balance wise. The game was never designed with a Comp scene in mind and it will never go Comp like that cause there's no way to do it.
Whoever you think is the best X killer i can guarantee you it's not a streamer, it's some random guy or girl we've never even heard of or seen. Somewhere out there exists a Console Nurse so Clean that will put PC bros to shame.
Regarding OG Post:
You have all the incentive to go for hooks already, the issue resides mainly in how survivors have absolutly nothing to do besides the gens and doing the gens is the easiest most boring thing they can do. They need to give survivors more incentive to be in chases and explore the map and create more chances to interact with the killer without that impacting their sense of objective progression and their ability to survive.
Limiting DbD to a simpler game might work. Create a 10 min time limit where Killer must get his 4 kills or the gates get powered and Survivors can escape. The whole of the match is just chases and Hide&seek. You eliminate the need for Slowdown Perks and you guarantee a minimum match time to play. After that create a good build, get good chases and try to get 12 hooks before the 10 minute mark or the 7 minute mark or the 5 minute mark, whatever the time limit may be. Survivors get to keep all their second chances, heals, boons, flashies. The maps won't need much rework since you're no longer fighting for control over it and you can find time to deal with loops. since they can't escape before a certain fixed time.
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Waiting for something like bbq, except it would be like
Once you have hooked a survivor, the survivors aura with the least amount of hook states is revealed to you (within a certain radius), gain bonus bloodpoints each time you hook the revealed survivor, this is done consecutively or something like that
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You have just the same ability as OP to determine whether you are in "high level play" or "the killer is bad and using a crutch". which is zero. lmao
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I feel like too few people are willing to acknowledge this. Without access to our own MMRs, we will never know for sure what MMR we are at in any given match. The only way to know anything is to base it off of assumptions on people's play, or report bias "I'm super good at the game, so i must be top MMR" If nobody is ever willing (or able) to be accurate about their own skill level, they will never have anything to measure it against with this system. Its purposely ambiguous to prevent bad players from being directly told that they are bad, but also gives people room to misconstrue their current standing. Its a bad combination when your community is so blatantly egocentric.
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I do not base it off of my own ability but rather, people who are considered to be good at the game.
I've had the opportunity to play against a couple of those people. People with 7K+ hours who stream the game for a living. Like I said in my original comment, I do not get to play against them consistently, I imagine the matchmaking system is too funky for that. However, I was able to keep pace with them while they were, at the very least, trying a little bit.
I'm confident enough that I'm perfectly willing to say that I don't get real high-level teams often, which is something at least.
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That's true. However, even with access to the MMR system, you'd likely just figure out that you're at the soft-cap for MMR. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people sit at the cap simply because it isn't that hard to get there.
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Correct answer, honestly. That's about how I see my games too. It really depends on the time of day and how many people are in each queue. All we can do is look at hours of teammates, the odd streamer in our game, or how many bug abusing blights, etc
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"High level play" will vary from person to person. And people will have different ways by which they measure it. So someone may feel they're playing top tier survivors, but actually they are just better than them.
I've beaten 4-man swf before, which I considered "high-skilled". However, how do I know that that level of "high-skilled play" is actually high? I know they were difficult and coordinated, but compared to others they may be amateurish! I don't know. All that can be known is, in relation to my skill, they were a real challenge. I cannot say whether they are high mmr or not, nor should that matter.
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