Tunneling and Camping will always be a part of the game
Bring Kindred. Bring Bond. Bring BT and OTR. Hell, bring DS and OTR and they will stack! Sure its only 3 seconds, but then you also have OTR. There are ways to get around it. You just have to be willing to invest if those are the things you are worried about.
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Wasting perks slots to counter game flaws
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I actually agree with this, despite maining killer. Shattered Hope was the same deal: a band-aid solution for a major design flaw.
I've been thinking lately, in regard to tunneling/camping, what if we find some ways to incentivize killers for hooking multiple survivors more? Tunneling and camping are usually used by people trying their hardest to win or at least ensure kills, so what happens if we change that aspect of the game? If the most effective strategy becomes hooking everyone multiple times, then I imagine tunneling and camping would be reduced drastically.
Tunneling and camping should of course be discouraged by the game's mechanics equally, but I think that a similar incentive to multiple hooks would encourage fairer gameplay without making the killers lose power. I'd be curious to hear what others think of this.
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But then you're bringing 4 perks to counter something that takes zero effort from the killer plus it doesnt change slower gen speeds and overall more efficient killers in chase since they got buffed.
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Agreed. I think one thing that will help is basing MMR on hook counts instead of kills. I've never understood the whole kills and escapes = skills. I feel like there's so much more to skilled game play than that.
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As I've said before. The game is 4v1 and not 1v1. It should take a team effort to prevent this.
Yes camping and tunneling is a problem, but ultimately it's a playstyle, and you really can't do anything about a playstyle that will lead to either unbaiancedness or tweak the other people that don't use that playstyle.
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What do you mean they stack?
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That is all I ever do. On both sides. I just cannot stand some of the mechanics, so I run whatever the counterplay is. Lightborn being my major one. The day I got blinded to the side of my head when I faced a wall was the first (and only) time I rage quit, and I do not leave home without my faith. Never again. Lightborn is our lord and savior.
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YES, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR LIGHTBORN
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getting blinded by a flashlight isn't a "game mechanic flaw" tho, it's just something you don't personally enjoy. There's a difference there.. (it's perfectly valid tho, I also run perks to counter things I dont like, but it's different when perks are needed to counter a flaw in how the game functions)
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Getting blinded TO THE SIDE OF THE HEAD WHILE FACING A WALL. I, personally, consider that a game mechanic flaw. No difference to me compared to how camping and tunneling are just things you do not personally enjoy.
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It doesn't have to be.
They could switch from indvidual hook states to team shared hook states in this team game.
Suddenly the only value there is to camping or tunelling someone is they might be an easier target to burn the teams hook states, which is why I think a hybrid system is best.
Each person gets their 2 personal hook states, and then the team shares 4 hook states on top of those.
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There is no way you could get blinded if you were facing straight towards the wall, you must have picked up the survivor at an angle on accident. that's not a flaw in the mechanic itself, but rather user error. 100% fair to want to bring lightborn to not have to deal with having to perfectly align yourself when you pick up survivors, but I think both sides have equal trouble understanding how the flashlight angles work
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This will only be fixed if the game core changes. Playing 3v1 is by nature easier than a 4v1 and therefore tunneling will always be the most effective strategy to win. Not doing so results in "genrush", doing so results in survivors leaving the game early. This is simply part of the game.
To adress this, you would for example need a trial wide hook count. Not personal 3 hook states. Count hooks and once you reach let's say 7 hooks, the next hook will be a sacrifice. You can tweak around that and increase or lower the number, I think first kill on 4th hook pretty much feels like tunneling, and I think everyone can agree that killer games that have no kill after 8 hooks are pretty tough and give survivors a ton of time to finish all gens and are pretty rare. You could even lower the hook count to 6 and add the condition that you definitely have your first hook stage, so that you definitely get your chance for 4% or Deliverance. So that hooking one or two survivors 6 times will not cause someone to die first hook. Tweak it until it feels fair for both sides.
Just as an idea that there is a way this could be adressed. But you need a groundshaking change like this to get rid of tunneling, otherwise it will always lead to the 3v1 target that makes killer life way easier.
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Well, obviously there had to be some mumbo jumbo angle that they got, but I have seen it from the survivors perspective, it is absolutely possible even if a bit rare. That being said, even without that bug, I would be loyal to my lord and savior just so that I do not need to self consciously hover around the body that I need to pick up. That is cringe. Beyond that, if you play as though you do not have Lightborn, you can save yourself a lot of distance or keep them at unsafe pallets because they get thirsty for the blind when you break, all sorts of little micro mindgames that are not usually possible because of how you have to play around flashlights without it. Not to mention those disgusting double locker set ups. Yucky.
My point being, I feel that flashlights are a bit inconsistent and at times overtuned, I know it is not a popular opinion, but there are a lot of popular opinions that are just objectively wrong. So whatever, it is what it is. That mechanic bothers me, I feel it a flawed, and I run a perk to counter it. That is the same as people bothered by tunneling and find it flawed. It is an apples to apples comparison. I get that you do not agree, but you are wrong. It is fine.
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I was agreeing with you until the final sentence. It's perfectly fine to dislike a mechanic and feel like it's flawed. But then you had to end with "if you don't agree then you're wrong"...
Nah mate, you have a subjective view on flashlight mechanics, and hate when you get blinded, and that's perfectly fine. That doesn't mean you're objectively correct tho.
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So will be flashlight macroing and exit gates "victory dancing" or any other kind of BM.
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Cool idea ... until a single AFK survivor/griefer dooms the entire team :D
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The simply solution is for the game to reward hooks more than kills. ( And then balance the game so killers can actually go for multiple hooks reliably)
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Lmao I do not understand these posts. Tunneling and camping are clearly a problem seeing as how unfun they are to go against. So it's the job of the devs to make sure those strategies aren't as effective anymore. It's as simple as that.
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Killers got a bunch of baseline buffs in 6.1.0. They are in the best state they have ever been, and are now generally more viable. I understand that situations can still arise where the killer kind of has to camp and tunnel or the odds are stacked against them a lot.
But the buffs to killers were a great start, and now it's time for survivors to get some improvements. Tunneling has been nerfed a bit now, which is great, but camping also needs to be addressed. Killers can be buffed in the future again, but only then alongside more nerfs to tunneling and camping. And alongside solo queue buffs.
I also feel like the only improvements killers will still need are more balanced maps and buffs to low tier killers.
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To every person complaining about bringing perks to counter game play, what are perks for if not to promote or counter gameplay.
Want to smash out gens bring a gen build, want to dominate chases bring an evasion build, want to avoid being slugged or camped build to avoid it.
Thats the point of perks.
A whole crowd of players so want anti tunnel anti camp anti slug anti chase and Jen jockey all rolled into one for free.
because it’s only fun when I get to do what I want to do, in a game where loss of license and elimination may legitimately cancel that.
These are players who can’t seem to understand what dbd is about and they are very angry about it.
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A single AFK person already dooms the team. I dont know what fairy tale game you're playing where it's possible to win a 3v1 against a remotely competent killer.
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the point of perks is enhancements not to fix core game issues.
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If you want a dead game, sure.
Eventually the devs will realize this was their Achilles heel. Hopefully it isn’t too late for them.
Its not that people hate that they lost a match, it’s that people hate that they lost to THAT. Because there is no skill involved in Camping and Tunneling. Players shouldn’t feel pressured to have to bring the same perks just because something is unbalanced.
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And a lot of the time even those don't help much. As a killer main I do agree that tunneling and camping is definitely part of the game however not in the first X minutes of a match with 0-3 gens completed. Shouldn't be a thing.
It's a good way to apply pressure (tunneling) but said pressure is definitely NOT NEEDED at the start of the match. No need to make the game miserable for others for no reason.
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And perks can enhance your ability to play around hook defence aka camping, they can enhance your ability to escape from being slugged, they can enhance your ability to evade the killer which directly helps you avoid being tunnelled.
I mean these aren’t game issues they are gameplay people don’t like that they want countered for free.
Use the perks it’s what they are for.
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According to you. Multiple perks are the definition of band-aids that only exist to address core issues. Like it or not, it's part of their design philosophy.
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Pretty much this, I know a lot of killers go out of their way to not tunnel/camp but you do see a lot just do it out of spite. I don't feel like you can blame the community on it but just a terrible game design.
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Please take those perks. The key thing is that good killers don't tunnel if there winning. Cause if your winning keeping pressure on the whole team is more important than wasting time on one survivor. While 3 more are on gens.
If everyone ran those perks you would get less done if you took gen rush and just sacrificed. Is it fun for the person on hook. Of course not but like you said it's not going away. Cause when your two gens down in first minute. You got to do something.
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Didn’t the devs tell us in patch 6.1.0 that neither killers nor survivors should have to bring specific perks to play the game? Like they specifically mentioned it in reference to giving basekit BT to deal with camping and tunneling.
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maybe if a killer stays near a hooked survivor the meter of hooked survivor will slow dramatically if not stop all together, and if a recently hooked survivor gets immediately hooked again it should continue right where it left off as opposed to the next hook level.
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That would punish players who just want to enjoy their 8 hook games mmr should based on kills but should take account how it is achieved by 12 hooking or 0 hooks before endgame but downing everyone with noed are not equally skilled perfomances.
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Tunneling and camping are not ideal gameplay so they should have some basekit counters like kindred and ds. Normal gameplay where hou go for hooks should be rewarded basekit grim embrace activating 2 times per trial if you succeed hooking everyone twice before killing. Current corrupt invertion should be basekit as well but the timer could be 30-40s instead. BBQ also should be basekit for killers.
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Developers love killers. Therefore, the camp and the tunnel are not removed. Previously, survivors had a stealth tactic. The developers removed the fog, changed the design of the maps, gave the killers anti-stealth perks. Now there is no stealth. If they wanted to, then there was no camp and no tunnel.
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Unfortunately a true statement. Also unfortunately a way to combat another game flaw,the survivors can do their own objective too fast and the killer can't do theirs as fast. CMWinter also talks about it from time to time but if I see more than 2 toolboxes,I don't care what's gonna happen,someone's gonna get tunneled out. That's the only reasonable way to win against multiple toolboxes with no doubt at least 2 having a BNP. Simply put,survivors want killers to play the 12 hook game but that's unreasonable and literally is setting you up for failure because the gens will fly while you're trying to make sure everyone's on death hook so no one can cry out tunneling or whatever.
You can call camping/tunneling a game flaw,I call it doing my objective fast. Same as survivors call genrushing doing their objective effectively/fast. So if one goes,the other does as well.
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Camping is now a part of every game - the endgame camp occurs nearly 100% of time now.
And it is a game design they backed themselves into a corner with - there's absolutely nothing devs can do about it (I'm convinced).
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A large difference is Survivors cannot take the Killer out of the match to force him/her to do nothing. Killers can always still chase, roam, and injure. Sitting on a hook with a Killer roaming around the corner to put you back up or keep you on there is such a pile of steaming poo of game design. You're playing bench warmer in a video game as basically just a progress bar for everyone else in the match indicating when the Killer has finished and will now move onto the next progress bar... I mean victim.
Post edited by VexTheHex on1 -
Actually the Killer can be technically removed from the game for the other 3 survivors if one is really good at looping. Either the killer commits to get the down or wastes time and goes to a Gen that just pops. Unfortunately that's also why you see 2-3 killers all the time,nurse can't be looped on any map (which is good if you think about it due to how MOST maps are utter garbage for a killer to play through,look at EoC,Both RPDs,and Garden of DC for references) which means survivors need to do things differently and can't rely on spamming a God window. Blight is more or less the same but logic bumb can only take him so damn far in these maps as well.
Keep in mind,these killers are the best available rn. So that leaves the rest of the roster struggling or just below the point to keep up in power level and relevance when you run into sweats at night because they aren't moble or don't have a strong anti loop game like artists.
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Kinda like how killers have to waste perks slot for gen defense, boo-hoo.
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You can still break chase though. A survivor on the hook doesn’t have the same option.
So no the killer cannot be removed in the same way a survivor can. Because even if we went with that comparison, just based on skill the survivor is doing more.
You have a person looping and applying pressure meanwhile you have a killer just standing around waiting for pressure to come to them.
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Whats with the boo-hoo part?
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Tunneling and camping like everything else in game are circumstantial, sometimes they make the best play sometimes not.
People want blanket counters to circumstantial playstyles because when they happen they don't like it. Whether its "ideal" playstyle or not is largely irrelevant, because that's entirely subjective.
They are legit play styles and until BHVR says they are against the rules, well... they are part of the game and should be expected.
Now like anything in game if you are struggling when faced with a particular play style you can pick from a selection of perks to help.
The key point is you shouldn't need these perks to counter said play. It is possible to outrun and escape from a killer who targets you aka tunneling and it is possible to save against a camping killer. But there are perks the boost your ability to do this and if you struggle in these scenarios then take the perks till you are better and don't need them anymore.
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"A large difference is Survivors cannot take the Killer out of the match to force him/her to do nothing"
You do realize that the primary threats you face as survivor are elimination (death) and non-participation (hooked/slugged). These are the mechanics you are trying to escape from. Without them why are you trying to escape?
There are plenty of PVP games where you endlessly respawn and count up your score at the end, maybe one those are better suited to you if elimination and non-participation seem like such bad mechanics to you.
The very zero sum finite nature of DBD is one of its strongest features that truly emulates the slasher film genre that inspired it. Those films are cruel and zero sum just like DBD and the game shines because of it.
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They could easily stop camping by making the killer's radius stop hook progression. But instead they make new perks to counter. I don't think the devs sincerely care about stopping it. If killers want to use childish tactics to win games, I say good luck to them when they reach mmr with the full on sweat death squad swf's.
Some killer tunneled me out of the game last week and had the nerve to send me a "GG ez" message. Dude got pissed when I gave him my good luck message. I block him after he sends me more hate messages and he gets a friend to harass me. Good times, lmao.
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Praise be to our lord and savior Lightborn he who protects us from the Clicky Clicks and their Lights of Flash. May thier auras forever be shown to us.
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Perk: Heavens intervention
Once unhooked this perk activates, for the next 90 seconds if the survivor is downed and hooked again, the hook breaks instead, and another random hook spawns nearby (helps with abusing). Deactivates during ecg, or after using a conspicuous action.
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Sadly that was tried and abused heavily by survivors in the past so it was scrapped. In regards to the other thing you suggested that would only work if there was a way for it not to be abused by either side. I could see players purposely getting knocked down to waste the Killers time, and also Killers would just slug more if that started happening.
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For the game health devs should admit they're not the way you suppose to play but those playstyle can't never be killed either completely as survivors would abuse that. Bt protecting both unhooker and unhooked sounds on paper good way to make camping less effective but survivors would just safe on killer face then. Current reassurance is not enough to deal with it and really only works agains't facecamping and while you go to hook that time wasted not sitting on gens. Hook timer increase to 80s would be good solution now that gens take longer. Ds reverted back to with old 5s stun would be good way to reduce tunneling and it should disable killer powers as well for next 5s after stun. Current ds 3s stun should be basekit. Sime has suggested making gens go faster less the people alive that could be good option as well. Ideally going for hooks should be made as most effient way to win as killer and to achieve that killers needs more buffs like I suggest and some maps needs to be looked at as well. Eyric crow and crotus for example are very survivor sided. Good suggestion I heard is to make gens slower if killer does not have enough hooks.
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