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Gen Times - WARNING OTZ VIDEO WARNING - THERE IS AN OTZ VIDEO IN THIS LINK - THIS LINK HAS OTZ
Comments
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#backburnerwithgrandmasbakedbeans
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add like a 20% chance a survivor spawns into the match on hook in phase 2. Only way to balance.
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thanks for clearing that up <3
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"Those skillchecks aren't easy to hit without other perks helping it and that means you don't have other perks to help you in chases"
- The games gonna be over in 5 minutes if you have a full build dedicated to it and/or other people doing it as well. You won't need help in chase if you never get chased because the game will be over.
- It requires a toolbox and TWO (2) perks, hyperfocus and stake out, in order to work. Meaning your other 2 can be perks like SB and OTR
You still haven't convinced me that being able to cut over 30 seconds off of a solo generator is balanced.
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How dare u not agreeing with the DBD god himself? Sacrilege!
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Gens are fine by themselves, the problem is the modifiers. I'd even go back to 80 second gens and just tune down all gen speed/time modifiers.
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Literally a meme build lol
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This is such a silly conversation. A very valid point from otz was brought up, and the survivors mains knee jerk reaction is "why don't we just start hooked?"
Shaving 30 seconds off gen time isn't balanced.
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It's not generator times per se. It is the ratio between the generator speed and the chase time. Let's look at some baskit numbers:
- 90 second gen
- 4.6 m/s killer movement speed
- 32 meter terror radius
- 4.0 m/s survivor movement speed
- 2.7 second Basic attack wipe duration
- 6 meter lunge
- 1.8 second on hit-sprint burst
- 6.0 m/s movement speed on hit sprint burst
- 8 second average carry time
- 1.5 second hook animation
- 3 second pick up animation
Let's say that pallets, windows, killer power, nothing exists. You just have a straight line to run. Let's say the killer immediately starts running for a survivor while they are working a gen. Let's say the killer is 50 meters away which is half the map, which is pretty typical if they spawn in the middle. It takes the killer 5.6 seconds to get within 24 meters of the survivor. Their terror radius is 32 meters. This means the survivor reacted to the killer within 2.5-3 seconds of them being in the terror radius, spotted the killer, and started running the opposite direction.
5.6 seconds elapsed.
Now the survivor starts bolting in the opposite direction. The killer moves at 4.6 m/s and the survivor moves at 4.0 m/s. The killer needs to be within 6 meters to land a hit. The killer gains .6 meters of distance on the survivor per second. This means running in straight line, to close the gap of 24 - 6 = 18 meters. It will take the killer 30 seconds. The killer the lands their hit.
5.6 + 30 = 35.6 seconds elapsed.
The killer hit animation lasts 2.7 seconds, the survivor sprint bursts away from getting hit, again still holding w, during the wip animation for 1.8 seconds they are moving at 6.0 m/s and for the other 0.9 seconds, they are traveling at 4.0 m/s. This means the survivor gains 14.4 meters of distance. Let's round that DOWN in the killer's favor to 14 meters.
5.6 + 30 + 2.7 = 38.3 seconds elapsed.
The killer now needs to close a gap of 14 - 6 = 8 meters. Which at the above speeds takes 13.333 seconds. The killer then lunges and lands their second hit downing the survivor.
5.6 + 30 + 2.7 + 13.333 = 51.64 seconds elapsed.
The survivor is now downed, and the killer picks them up, taking 3 seconds for the animation.
5.6 + 30 + 2.7 + 13.333 + 3 = 54.64 seconds elapsed.
The killer walks to a nearby hook that takes ~ 8 seconds (half the wiggle bar)
5.6 + 30 + 2.7 + 13.333 + 3 + 8 = 62.64 seconds elapsed.
The killer then hooks the survivor taking 1.5 seconds in animation.
5.6 + 30 + 2.7 + 13.333 + 3 + 8 + 1.5 = 64.14 seconds.
Now factor in that during this time the other 3 survivors are doing gens. Even if you know EXACTLY where the other survivors are at and run to the nearest one. You likely just lost 2 gens and almost a 3rd before you get in range of that survivor. This is precisely the problem with the game. Just holding w, no pallets, no windows, no looping, nothing and you can pop 3 gens in the first chase. Now throw in the fact that gen regression perks have been heavily nerfed, and that things like toolboxes and hyperfocus exist, and you don't stand a chance.
This is precisely why at the highest level, the only viable killers are nurse, spirit, and blight, because their power directly counters this issue. Killers like huntress still do ok, but once looping is factored in, she isn't as good due to high walls. Killers like clown only reduce this time down by ~5 seconds or so, not nearly enough to make that much of a dent. The majority of the killer cast can't compete in this type of world once looping and powers are factored in, because most killer powers are not strong enough to deal with this core gameplay problem.
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You've got to be kidding with this. Toolboxes don't do anything. They maybe help with 10% of the newly increased gen length.
You killer mains are running 3-4 slowdown perks and you STILL want stuff to slowdown even more? Give me a break. If anything slowdown perks should be limited to 2 per loadout just like exhaustion perks are limited. BHVR openly said slowdown perks should not be needed after patch and nearly every killer I come across (iri 1 atm) runs 3-4 of them. Toolboxes are not even a sliver of a problem.
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I would love to see that quote from BHVR "openly saying slowdown perks should not be needed".
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Agreed, It's just sad. I'm getting to the point where I hope these killers get what they want and won't have a game to play anymore because all of the survivors have switched to killer or stopped playing.
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Why do we even try to smear the study as if we did our own research?
We couldn't even produce the same quality of evidence as Otz, and we're critiquing it like we're scholars in the field.
What we need is more educated research to prove a point instead of us just screaming in our own echo chambers.
It just makes us even more ignorant and disconnected from the truth if we always try to shut down attempts to provide evidence for the discussion just because we have our own biases.
Disprove it with the same quality of evidence and then we'll talk.
Also, cheaters can use unlimited items and broken add-ons just to excuse their cheating behavior. I'd rather we take those away.
(If we nerf toolboxes, we should rework the Nurse as well, since the Nurse is practically the only reason toolboxes are fair in the first place.)
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I wonder what the first category would look like is he listed all the gen regression perks, and what the outcome is on gen repair time when used stacked. He's only taking into account a survivor working on a gen with no interruptions and no gen regression perks. So under very specific RARE circumstances.
I mean would any Killer worry about this against Solo Q? Or is this a call to nerf perks for the vast majority of the survivor player base because a tiny percentage of 4-man SWF's at the highest MMR can technically use the combo?
Maybe I missed something in the video.
Post edited by CluelessWanderer on7 -
They nerfed the best gen regression perks though. Gen slowdown as a whole is a good deal worse than it used to be. Also they added a FREE ten second BT with 10% haste basekit to all survivor unhooks.
Please stop spreading misinformation.
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Some people are not analyzing the video game for a living and can make arbitrary graphs showing how items "slightly" helps the side do their objective and to win and make an argument that is so unfair and unbalanced.
This is why BHVR is having a playerbase retention problem, listening to this and making bad changes. Survivors are not having fun. The game needs to be fun and it should be inviting to new players, not a very tiny loud minority.
Otz is a nice guy but he is wrong.
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i don't see it as problem. survivor items are 5th perks with 0 risk, full reward. the game is balanced 0 items for survivors and the killer with add-on +4 perk's. add-on deciding how powerful or how weak the killer is. Survivor that are using items are just wanting to win and have less stressful match. that is sort of how I see it. This isn't to sound like a killer main or anything, but I don't think items for survivor should exist. if survivor want an advantage, maybe it should be like a personal offering or something for survivor.
on average you lose 1 gen+ 75% progress of another gen per chase. that's survivor playing at its worst though. you can extend chases a lot more if you use pallets and windows effectively and.... most maps have a lot of strong windows and pallet. RPD feels so much weaker right now for survivor. I used to not mind RPD as much as survivor, but now I kinda dislike playing on that map as survivor. I think they went a little overboard on killer complaints on the map.
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They did NOT. What did they nerf besides Pop? Thana still works as normal. They only changed the requirements. Stop spreading misinformation. I can pull a whole list of what perks got nerfed on survivor side. Tunneling is what got BT buffed. Survivors didn't go, oh.. please tunnel me at 5 gens, Killer PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE. BT was earned because of killers. Blame yourselves on that and stop bringing up BT as a counter. Keep camping a little more and they'll buff Reassurance. You know what I love about Hyperfocus and why others' dont like it? Its a direct counter to tunneling. You get someone out of the game quickly to get the upper-hand, Hyperfocus is there to counter that with gen rush. Congrats on it. You guys REALLY earned it after all that tunneling and camping from that super buff everyone got on the killer side.
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Survivor items are like 5th perk slots? Rather like Killer add-ons also serve as 5th and 6th perk slots by that logic? Why should advantageous Killer add-ons exist but survivors can't have some equivalent in an item?
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How would you suggest toolboxes be changed? Do you mean to simply not synergise with Hyperfocus + Stakeout? Many of us don't use these perks and I'd hate to see changes to toolboxes in general because then it's yet another case of the whole survivor base losing out because of a few
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I mean i respect your opinion but i personally find it wrong. I have used these perks together for a while now with and without toolboxes and i find the perk problematic, but again i respect your opinion and we are allowed to disagree on this matter.
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He's basically talking about why a lack of sanity checks is making the game harder to balance, and predictably causing players to focus more on damage control than playstyle variety. If you balance around X factor, you need to make sure X has minimal variance: Otherwise you increase the likelihood of unfair outcomes and make it inherently less balanced. Most balance discussions with the game turn into "Oh yeah well what about [insert other side] having [insert other problem]!" for this exact reason, its balanced by averages while selectively ignoring extreme outliers, and they're generally likely to nerf a mediocre thing due to its extreme usage than actually address why said extreme usage is a thing.
It's been an issue since day one with balance for no comms vs allowing them, and having that variance create a blatant unknown to apply to various core mechanics. Most people have made peace with the fact they're never going to remove it, but there is a very important lesson to be leaned about it: There are going to be both casual groups of friends who want to talk while playing, and there are going to be people who press that advantage as much as possible because it's in the game. They could easily make changes to how the system works that hurts the latter without affecting the former, but those types of meaningful changes require more than throwing a perk on top and calling it a day.
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This is a hard one. I feel bad for the devs because it's going to be hard to get right. We always heard about camping and tunneling being cheesy and a unfun tactic but people bringing 4 BNP + Prove isn't talked about nearly as much as camping and tunneling. Same goes for 4 insta heals or styptics or 4 purple flashys +map offerings. Probably a hot take but I don't think BNPS or styptics are healthy for the game anymore. All these things buy a TON of time for the gens to be done or drastically decrease the time to do them with little to no counterplay or way of knowing about it.
I think its a bit absurd that some matches you can literally find a survivor within 20 seconds and down them in under 40 then hook them and your already down a gen and a half, That 1 hook state doesn't apply nearly enough pressure to justify losing a gen and another being almost done. Early game seems to be where the problem lies the most and some killers (Hag,myers,trapper,pig,onryo,freddy) will lose 2 generators and sometimes 3 and only have 1 hook no matter how good you do in chase or setup due to the limits of their power and how much you control the chase.
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Why should advantageous Killer add-ons exist but survivors can't have some equivalent in an item?
the items takes away challenge of escaping the killer. the escape does not feel earned. your entitle to use them though. they are part of the game.
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Some of these comments really got me sideways...
People truly believe Otz is constantly complaining about something? The man's content output is like 70% DBD Educational, 20% HAHA Funny DBD, and 10% "Here are my thoughts on this..."
I think the problem here is pretty clear; a significant population of players only dip their feet in one role, and they are all reluctant to admit when the tools at their disposal break the game and/or make the game insufferable to the other side. Nothing but a bunch of scavengers walking 'round these parts rendering feedback virtually useless to the devs, because it pales in comparison to the reliability of their data.
How does anyone expect this game to improve when y'all acting like seagulls?
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The game is in a really bad place imo.
As killer, I get super sweaty teams. Gens fly, heals are INSANELY fast.
As survivor, I get HORRIFIC teams. As in people using self care still kind of teams.
I never bring addons as killer as I like to get good as basekit without relying on addons. But survivor items are way too strong.
Im told to not tunnel, but if I hit someone else and they get away, they can heal so fast ( since for some reason COH, Med kits, perks STACK ?! )
And the ones I dont hit are slamming out gens so fast with toolboxes I cant keep up. This is the problem with adding 3x perks per survivor. Theyre running out of ideas, so they create combos that are insane.
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What did they nerf besides Pop? Seriously?
Thana was most definitely nerfed, making it essentially impossible for anyone but Plague or Legion to get any actual value out of it (Why that's ironic is a different topic of conversation.
Ruin was literally ruined.
Corrupt was nerfed
Pain Resonance was nerfed.
The strangest one to me was BBQ - they claimed that they wanted to reduce camping/tunnelling but took away the incentive in BBQ to hook every survivor at least once ASAP. Baffling.
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4 BNP + PT isn't talked about as much as camping and tunnelling, because the former is relevant to swfs while the latter is more relevant to solo queue. Swfs can coordinate around camping and tunnelling alot easier than solo can, so most complaints around camping and tunnelling are from solo players (and to an extent, 2man and 3man swfs), who make up the majority of the player base.
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Stake out doesn't make you waste time, you can actually do stuff and passively gain tokens
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I really hate when I see a comment posted, click to read it, and it is no longer available/removed.
I always wonder about the 'winning' comments I'm missing out on:(
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Email notifications are your friend. 😀
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The other day I opened a forum thread in a new tab, while I was doing other things on my computer.
About 15min after I opened the thread I decided to read it. Figured I should refresh first, and before I even read any of the content my page reloaded to “this post has been removed.”
…I was really kicking myself for missing out on some drama
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I think this is honestly a great take. Gen times aren't too fast like people are saying, and they aren't too slow like people are saying. The problem is there is WAY too much variance. How can the game be balanced around 80-90 second gens when it is very possible for gens to take 40 seconds less or more? Imo, I think gens should almost ALWAYS stay around 80-90 seconds, there shouldn't be anything to speed or slow them down. Now talking about gen regression perks (NOT SLOWDOWN PERKS LIKE THANA), that is a different story, and that is how I think the game should be balanced around. A killer should be rewarded for taking the time to pressure gens, not just making stuff take longer. It should be a back and forth.
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What are you talking about? Thana was gutted. It's now locked to pretty much plague and legion.
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