http://dbd.game/killswitch
Unfun ≠ Unbalanced
What you may find fun, others may find unfun, and that is valid. What others find fun, you may find unfun, and that is valid. But saying something needs to be changed simply because you yourself find something unfun is equivalent to advocating your own fun is more important than those who have fun with that thing. Neither side's sense of fun is more important. There is also no way to objectively make something "more" fun, because it is an entirely subjective standard that will vary from person to person. If something is unfun for some people, it is worth looking into why it is unfun for them. That does not necessarily mean that thing needs a change. The only times something should be changed for being unfun is if the majority of the people playing as and playing against both find it unfun, or what one side finds fun and the other side finds unfun doesn't line up anyways (so removing it wouldn't affect the other side anyways). However, that is rare.
Is the thing you find unfun also unbalanced? Then advocate for change due to it being unbalanced, which can be objectively measured through things such as performance stats on certain factors. Much like how something being fun does not mean it is balanced, something being unfun does not mean it is unbalanced. Is it unfun for you, but balanced? Well to be frank, that is kind of a you issue at that point.
There will never be a matchmaking versus game where all players involved are always having fun. Is it fun to be a support in Overwatch that gets deleted immediately by a flanking DPS? Probably not. But does that mean that warrants them being changed? No, because they are balanced and there are ways to play around it, such as anti-flank swaps or tanks protecting the supports. Is it fun to immediately die to a good sniper player who headshots you every time you show up in unprotected line of sight? Probably not, but that is what line of sights, shields, tanks, and so on are for.
If you want something to be changed, find and advocate a better, non-subjective reason and a suggestion on what could be done. Example:
"I want Deadlock to be changed because it's boring and unfun to play against." ❌
"I want Deadlock to be changed because it is a hyper-strong effect that is objectively impossible to prevent it from activating even if the killer is AFK. I think the effect should require some sort of equivalent level of input from the killer which could open up potential ways to counter or delay it." ✅
Comments
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Let me play devil's advocate.
I find it fun to trap you in a corner while your teammates finish all gens and leave the game.
Should I be allowed to do that? Should my fun be ignored because one person found my fun, unfun?
Fun is the balance that the devs should always be working towards. Since this is a game it is by definition made to be fun. That's it. if it is not fun for a majority, they are not doing their job properly.
Post edited by Gcarrara on19 -
You are very wrong, for 99% players what matters is whether the game is fun, not whether it is balanced.
A game can be balanced but unfun for BOTH payers at the same time.
A good example in DBD is slugging, the killer has managed to down the last survivor as killer, and all his teammates are dead, but the survivor is too far away from any hook. Then the optimal decision is for both players to LITERALLY STOP PLAYING.
In this situation, none of the 2 players are having fun for 4 minutes. Whether slugging is balanced is irrelevant, both players are wasting their time, so this is something that SHOULD be addressed, regardless of whether this is balanced or not.
This would be fixed by eg. allowing a downed survivor to give up after 1 minute of slugging.
I take slugging because it's the most obvious example but there are MANY things in this game that are balanced and yet VERY unfun.
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Except you aren't stating a game balance issue. You are stating a player griefing issue which the devs said is bannable.
Post edited by Gcarrara on6 -
Technically you can play against Deadlock by just grouping up and doing one gen at a time.
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"Breaking game rules is comparable to unfun playstyle/character/perks/etc."
Yeah, no.
Post edited by Gcarrara on2 -
Which is why I’ve literally said if the majority of both sides finds it unfun, or what the majority of one side finds fun and the majority of the other finds unfun doesn’t line up, changing it makes sense.
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Not only, there are cases where one side finds something a little fun and the other side finds it very unfun. These should be addressed too.
The goal is that every player has fun within a reasonable compromise. Not that the player who has found how to exploit the game better has all the fun and the others are doomed.
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As far as I'm aware trapping someone in the corner all game is not bannable unless no one can do generators anymore and activate the endgame.Idk maybe I'm wrong.
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Fair point, but what’s an example of that? Most of the cases I can think of are pretty polarized in being very fun or unfun, depending on who you ask.
It’s bannable even if others can do generators, since the trapped person can’t do anything. Trapping someone AFTER EGC starts is fine, not before.
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You are indeed wrong. Bodyblocking in the corner for an extended period of time and for large percentages of the match is bannable, regardless of circumstances.
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That’s kind of my point. Just cause you find it unfun doesn’t mean others do too.
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I agree with everything stated here. More to your point I think, if something is balanced and you can change it to make it fun for both sides (even if the side it was fun for in the first place, it is now "less fun") that it worth doing.
Say a killer perk is really oppressive but the counterplay isn't too hard but it's not fun for the survivors to have to do instead of something else. Maybe nerfing said perk in a way that it still provides value, but isn't so good the survivor feels the need to deal with it in a specific way is a good call, even if it's clear to say before such a change the perk was balanced.
I think BHVR makes these kinds of changes a lot and people just scream "KILLER SIDED" "SURVIVOR SIDED"
Deathslinger's nerf (which I think they overdid in a few places so this is not the best example but it's one I can bring up). They made him have a long-ish aim down sights that has to take place before he can fire and has to wait to put the gun back down before his walking speed returns to normal. This removed the viability of quickscoping, makes zoning more punishing (for killer to do, he can't zone "for free" anymore) and makes looking at 'slinger a lot more useful because you can react in time to start dodging.
Unfortunately this wasn't successful, at least in the eyes of the community. Even tho they made 'slinger counterplay easier survivors still don't have fun against 'slingers. At least all the ones that complained in the first place don't seem to be happy. Killers who enjoyed "exploiting" his quickscoping have now dropped him completely because now apperently he's no fun to play AS either.
I disagree with both of these types of people. 'Slinger is still very rewarding to play and wacky shots are always super fun. Playing against 'slinger also doesn't really cause issues for me. I sadly rarely lose to 'slingers and dodging can be easy against less experienced ones. But even if my swf is clowning on the poor guy, WE have fun. He could use a buff but a lot of the intention around the change was to make him better for survivors to face without making him godawful to play and that was mostly successful imo but they didn't give 'slinger anything to compensate for his lost quickscope and ambush (TR) so he's not great sadly.
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Fun is pretty subjective, and in a game like this where there are a gazillion options between survivors, killers, items, add-ons, offerings, perks, powers, maps, and tiles, there is bound to be some combination of stuff that you or I find objectionable.
As a survivor, I don't like playing against Deathslinger, I find him oppressive and the counterplay boils down to "did I get lucky and zigzag the right way?" I don't like playing against Cannibal because his chainsaw dash lasts for approximately 800 years and there is literally no way to escape him if he decides you're going down, especially right off hook. I don't like playing against Wesker because it just feels really really bad and oppressive to get slammed against the wall and have my movement taken away for so long, I HATE that he needs a 40 meter TR and it just throws me off my whole game, and his voice lines are too frequent and add insult to injury when I am already feeling frustrated.
As a killer, I absolutely do not take the game very seriously so I do not have an easy, ready-made list of stuff I don't like.
But, maybe other people do not feel the same way I do about the stuff I mentioned up above. Maybe they have their own stuff. I can't say whether that stuff is balanced; those killers certainly are not at the top of any tier lists (though Wesker seems strong right now). But they just feel bad to go against. Part of this is probably just my own personal issue. Part of it is that BHVR is very bad at considering the human "how does this feel?" element when making balance changes, and they get excessively over-reliant on data alone to tell the story for them (the whole Object of Obsession kerfuffle is exhibit A here).
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Legion is a good example.
Unequivocally unfun to play against but not unbalanced.
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So I should have reported so many people for trapping me in corners over the years? I never knew that was a bannable offense. That makes the map design in this game look horrendous because there are so many spots to get cornered into.
This game is literally ridiculous. DBD should be ashamed of itself for existing. Its a never ending oxymoron.
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I wish I had known this about 3 years ago when I got trapped for half of a match in the barn on Coldwind Farm.
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Fun is a lot more important than balance, by a significant margin. Balance is generally a complete non-issue in game design until you start running into issues where a handful of strategies are overwhelmingly dominant over all other strategies. Even then, it can still be a relatively small issue as long as there is not total strategic collapse of the game.
For example, in Smash Bros. Melee, there is a very small number of viable characters. However, this is a non-issue in Melee. Among those characters, none of them are so strong that playing one particular character guarantees victory. The top 8 characters are all capable of beating each other. (this is common in high level play in many games: the number of viable choices goes down as skill increases)
The problem isn't always the strength of the dominant strategies either, but rather the fact that it artificially reduces the number of viable choices that a player can make. Although Nurse and Blight are objectively the best killers in the game because they are so strong, we do not see strategic collapse among the killer population.
Even relatively low-tier killers see plenty of play and are capable of beating strong survivor teams if the player makes good gameplay decisions. If survivors were so strong that ONLY Nurse and Blight could win, then we would see collapse at that level. Nurse and Blight are common due to their strength, but are not the only viable way to win as killer.
We did see strategic collapse occur on the survivor side prior to 6.1.0, however. We all know the four meta perks of the apocalypse: BT, Dead Hard, DS, Unbreakable. These four perks were so overwhelmingly better than the other 200~ perks in the game, that they were the only four worth running. This is true strategic collapse: no other strategy was as viable as "run the best perks in the game." (We saw this a little bit in the killer meta with "Ruin, Undying, Tinkerer, Corrupt Intervention", but not anywhere to the same degree as the survivor meta.)
In addition to being strong, the metapocalypse perks were extremely unfun to play against. DS + Unbreakable made survivors effectively invincible for a a full minute. Add BT + DH into that, and a recently unhooked survivor can make suicidal plays to protect their teammates with zero risk of any kind. The end result is that killer players generally felt helpless against this kind of gameplay. Because they were.
So, I hope you have a decent understanding of what truly poor balancing looks like compared to acceptable balance. Truly poor balancing looks like "if you want to win, use this strategy. Otherwise, you will lose because your opponent is already using it." Acceptable balance is "This strategy is much stronger than the others, but can still be beaten by many other strategies."
Which brings us to unfun vs unbalanced. As long as the game isn't completely revolving around a particular strategy/character/perk, we are in an ok balancing position. This means keeping things balanced is actually pretty easy, and making things fun should take a much higher priority since it is much more difficult and time consuming to get right.
Fun is subjective and nebulous, and varies from person to person. One person will think your game is very fun because you must sit around and balance spreadsheets for hours, and another will think your game is horrible for the exact same reason (one person finds tactically doing gens very fun, another finds it grueling and miserable). However, if players are at least playing your game, you can assume that they all like it for one reason or another. The matter is finding what the majority of people enjoy about the game, and leaning into it. HARD.
Finding unfun parts of your game is relatively similar. You look for pressure points that make players want to stop playing, and address them. No one finds mending twenty times against Legion fun or entertaining in any way. No one like getting slugged on the ground for 4 minutes because the killer is gloating that they won. No one liked waiting out old Dead Hard. No one likes having their chases go to waste because players can reset indefinitely at Circle of Healing.
Games need to have some kind of stress or frustration to them in order to receive an emotional payoff when you succeed at your objective. However, excess stress will cause players to find that the payoff is not worth the effort. Finding "fun" is about balancing effort vs reward. High effort and extremely low rewards leads to players not wanting to play (e.g. solo queue survivor post 6.1.0, and killer before 6.1.0). Finding and alleviating the pressure points that make players want to quit playing makes the other stress sources more bearable, since putting up with them is now worth the effort with the more intense stress sources no longer piling on top of that.
I'll stop now lol
TL;DR:
Balance is secondary to fun, as balancing issues must be VERY extreme before they start to impact fun in a meaningful way. Fun, however, is far more difficult to manage as it is a highly complex equation of effort to reward.
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Right that full squad of Head Ons really made my game unfun while they had fun bullying me all match.
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For majority of the players (from what I have seen) fun is completely dominating their opponents and unfun is anything that pose a threat to that goal.
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yknow the nurse isnt gonna kiss on the lips because youre defending her this much right?
shes a fictional character
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Cute projection, but this post isn't about Nurse. It's about all of the posts people make where they say something should be changed just because they find it unfun.
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Sometimes you face so many unconventional M2 killers that it's niceto go back to the Dbd basics imo, I love seeing how particular Legions approach chases :(
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Sometimes unfun does mean unbalanced too though.
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I see,I'm glad it is then
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That's not really playing devils advocate.
You can't take an extreme example of holding someone hostage, which is against game rules, and use it as a counter point to whether legitimate play is fun or unfun.
While fun is the point of the game it often leads to highly biased requests touted as balance because a large part of the community equate fun to winning. But having the game feel like you won every match is hardly balanced.
While the OP is taking the idea of "its not fun" as an illegitimate argument to the extreme they aren't far off given the very subjective nature of fun.
The fun of asymmetric play is that it can be very one sided, this isn't a fair game its weighted by strong solo mechanics vs teamwork. This is why you see swings in outcome between solo Q survivors and SWF teams.
Trying to balance that often creates a bland and generic game experience where outcome is dictated by RNG and nothing more, because everyone is equal. You can argue the skill angle but people always overestimate their own skill and success is driven by chance instead of capability in most cases.
People get hung up on balance and fairness equating to fun when the reality is, its the unfairness and imbalance of this game that usually results in the most fun for one side. i.e. Its fun outplaying a killer and repeatedly escaping a chase... its fun catching someone and mori'ng them out of the game.
If you go in with the expectation than any game can be fun even when it falls against you then you'll likely find even the unbalanced elements enjoyable, especially given the theme of DBD. If you expect your wants to be met every game in a balanced nature then DBD probably isn't the game for you.
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