Balancing around Tunneling and Camping.
It's really a travesty of design to balance around unfun things, imagine if classic pvp games like Halo or Doom LAN play balanced around using the same, 1 boring gun to kill everyone, every single time. There needs to be some basekit encouragement for killers to not tunnel, making perks that severely punish killers for camping and tunneling, while forcing them to play on straight up unfair maps is terrible and leads to some really lopsided matches. Now we're seeing the consequences of this method of balancing as well, I only face anti-loop/strong killers now, it's always Blight, Nemesis, Nurse, Huntress, Spirit, and occasionally Bubba, this is because they're pretty much the only killers that can down fast enough to keep up with survivors. So if you don't like these killers, well then that's unfortunate, because they're all you're gonna see for a while.
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They need to buff 3v1 situations as survivor and apply compensatory buffs to killer in 4v1 situations. The reason why tunneling is so effective is because you have to kill one survivor as fast as possible and then it's easy to win 1v3, and if you don't do that as killer then the gens go way too fast.
On top of it, 3v1 scenarios are already not a very enjoyable part of the game, usually you can already tell who will win depending on the number of gens remaining (buffing 3v1 will also help if your teammate DC'd).
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What is tunneling? What is camping? There's no consensus definition.
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Halo and Doom aren't elimination games.
DBD at it's core is an elimination game where one side is trying to remove the other side from the game. There's only so much you can do to get killers to not tunnel and camp, but the end of the day the fastest way to win is to remove someone as quickly as you can. Focusing on getting a single survivor out of the game or forcing a hook state are just tools to accomplish that.
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People really don't want to admit that in certain matches, you have to camp and tunnel if you want a chance at winning. Even when they do admit that, they play it off like it's a 1/100 thing. Try 1/3. There have been countless times where the survivors weren't that good in chase and could have been more efficient on gens, but did that stop 3-4 of them from escaping? No. The time it takes to down survivors at certain tiles is too long unless they make the mistake. At jungle gyms and shack for example, there's no mindgame once that pallet's dropped, meaning you have to break it and let the survivors get to the next tile for free. Even if it's like 20-30 seconds to down them, that can be a game losing chase on its own, simply because the other survivors are being efficient on gens. They should be done in like 5 minutes, which is why you see so many people bringing Adrenaline and Hope for late game, because it's basically guaranteed at this point.
I don't know why people act like you can't be efficient in solo. You can, as long as you don't have bad teammates. There's no reason for games to be going on for 10 minutes+. Believe me, I've seen bad teammates and there's not much you can do to carry them, let alone escape yourself. But is that the killers fault? No. Just because the survivors aren't playing well doesn't mean the killer has to forfeit playing well themselves. Most of the time, that involves camping and tunneling, because that's what gets consistent positive results, unlike going for 12 chases. You have to make a shortcut somewhere or you will just lose, unless the survivors say, "You know what? I'm gonna not block my teammate from going down. I'm gonna not commit to this gen. I'm gonna search this chest."
You can't balance around camping and tunneling with base mechanics. It punishes killers who are resorting to that playstyle because they're already in a losing position, which you are from the start as killer. And let's not forget the unintended side effects of that. Base BT? Free body blocks for the unhooker. It has to be perks that counter these playstyles, not base mechanics, because survivors don't need 20 perks vs the killer's 4. They should have to give something up to counter these playstyles. Why is it the killer is always at their mercy, and not the other way around? Killers have to give up 2 perk slots for the possibility of Call Of Brine/Overcharge to work, the only combo that actually rewards you for stopping to kick gens, and all the survivors have to do is come by and tap it.
It's as OP says. You only see those killers, because they can actually move around the map, punish survivors who run loops bad, and not waste much time playing pallet break simulator. But don't mistake them being strong with them being unbeatable. There are so many counters to these killers, and so many more for the ones who weren't mentioned, which is why nobody plays them.
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What if it didn't have to be that way? You're acting like this is absolute and that no change could possibly make it any other way, but the fact of the matter is that with the right changes you could make tunneling and camping non viable, while still making the game fair for killers.
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If you want to make DBD a non-elimination game, you would be making a different game. The "problem" is simply a core design of DBD. The killer's only goal is to kill survivors. Hooking survivors is only a tool killers have to kill survivors and not the goal itself. If you want to make it impossible for killers to tunnel or camp, all you would be doing is making survivors immune to dying which is far unhealthier for the game than camping or tunneling is.
The killer is under no obligation to go around hooking different survivors each time and they are no obligation to hook every survivor 3 times.
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I mean it is fairly absolute, The game since day 1 has been about killing survivors its like trying to remove guns from doom and making it a melee game. It would not be the same game. The onyl change that could make DBD no longer an elimination game would be if survivors didint die, which makes it an entirely different game.
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Exactly; some people have a very narrow definition of these things, some have very loose definitions, and everything in between. This is a big issue with discussion around them.
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Yeah I agree. I swear Behaviour did something to the map spawns within the last several months because I'm noticing way more jungle gyms and pallets you can't do anything about other than kick.
It really feels like it's still the survivors' game to lose (assuming they're all at least competent) unless the killer is playing a top 5 pick or/and tunnels someone out. I'd really like to see Behaviour change this as the game would be so much better if they did. The crazy safe/big map spawns and tunneling that is.
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That level of change would be akin to asking why can't survivors be in first person and build guns to hunt the killer? It would completely modify the game in a huge way if survivors never died. What would be the game end condition? X hits? A time limit?
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DBD is inherently flawed and poorly designed, would you rather have a better game?
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It depends entirely on what the new options is. If you ask me to pick between DBD and VHS I will pick DBD every time. That's a game that has no face camping or tunneling and has a sub 1k player count at peak hours.
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I think the idea that DBD in inherently flawed is an inherently flawed view.
DBD is unique. It offers something that you don't really get out of other games which is why it has been doing well. Even in the absolute worse times, player counts were still good.
Changing DBD for the sake of DBD isn't guaranteed to create the same success.
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I mean yes. No #########. Every game is flawed in some way or another, the goal is to minimise flaws and make the good aspects of the game overshine the.
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imagine if classic pvp games like Halo or Doom LAN play balanced around using the same, 1 boring gun to kill everyone, every single timeIs my memory bad or it was exactly few superior guns overshadowing everything else in every classic comp FPS title like Q3, CS and UT?
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Right get the BFG of the game and piss all your friends off as you repeatedly kill all of them over and over. Good times.
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We're six years into DBD; they're not just going to scrap the core of the game at this point, nor should they.
It's kind of like a lot of the whinging around Elden Ring/Soulsborne games, where people are really asking for them to be made more like other games, as if there has to be this monolithic core to all video games, so all games are enjoyable for everyone. Which is ridiculous.
DBD is what is it is, a relatively unique, unbalanced (and unbalance-able), casual and asymmetrical game. If you make it more like other games (who likely would do it better), DBD is dead. DBD has really only been able to survive and thrive in spite of its myriad flaws because of what sets it apart.
tl:dr: if you want to play a different game, play a different game.
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what “perfect game” you used as the comparison for dbd? How do you say it is a flawed game if it is unique genre? Are you comparing dbd design with imaginary game that doesnt exist?
if you doesnt like the design, it doesnt make it flawed
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Let's not be facetious. Tunneling is going after a recently unhooked survivor before others. Camping is sticking near the hook either with the intent of preventing the unhook, or so one could tunnel the unhooked immediately. We know what these terms mean. There's no poing in playing dumb.
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I mean, killers had BBQ. Which gave them a reason to leave the hook and go for someone else. Buuuut some people claimed that killers camp n tunnel anyway and that BBQ should go.
Well guess what.
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I've faced nothing but Blights/Nurses/Spirits and very rarely other killers for years. I don't know how/when any if you are getting those fun varied matches. So for me nothing changes. It's still permanent spam of Nurses and Blights. At least if there are tools to counter tunnelling and camping I'll have more than I did before.
EDIT: Well now it's been mostly Weskers. I'm hoping this changes soon though because it's getting so boring. Though it'll go back to Nurses and Blights which is not that much better.
I just think I need to stop playing solo Q.
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