"Boring Killers" - Are Survivor Complaints Valid?
i feel like we come back to this topic of wanting something nerfed vs wanting something to be made healthier, and sometimes the conflating of the two. people will interpret complaints about spirit or freddy as wanting them "nerfed" when in fact these killers aren't overpowered at all because, as you note in the video, they're perfectly beatable if people stay spread out because that's the most efficient way to play the game
the problem is not strong killers. the problem is killers who are strong for the wrong reasons, who have unfair chase mechanics to make up for their terrible map mobility (this is why i tend to be against 110 killers because they almost always end up in this boat)
you note pyramid head is deathslinger done better, but i'd argue he's no better (or even worse) than deathslinger because he does the same power faking/free m1 stuff deathslinger does, except against deathslinger a safe pallet is still typically safe once you're injured. a pyramid head can force you into die or die scenarios much more easily because even pallets aren't safe against him; throw a pallet and he hits you with his power, don't throw the pallet and he cancels his power and gets a free hit - same goes for vaulting pallets and windows. he's faster than deathslinger and can hit you through any obstacle without needing to m1 you, so i actually find him much less bearable in chase than deathslinger is because at least i can LoS a deathslinger and take advantage of his slower movement in some scenarios, and while slinger is stronger out in the open, i can at least sometimes do something about him when i'm at a tile
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Spirit is no longer problem tho? She already nerfed, i don't know why people are believing she is problem.
Nurse? She needs some add-on nerfs and that's all have to be done.
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Is this a 2020 post or something? Slinger and Pyramid Head received changes ages ago.
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Whenever I read a complaint about boring killers, I instantly have to think about how interesting running in circles around a rock feels.
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This sounds like a "the grass is always greener on the other side" kinda problem.
I main Pyramidhead and only @GoodBoyKaru has more hours on him then me (joking :P but I guess it's around 400h+).
When I verse Pyramidhead myself the killer definitely has a very hard time against me, just because I know his kit inside out. Pyramidhead is hardly an uncounterable killing machine, his ultra clunky projectile is already seeing to that, but he is a very rewarding killer to git gud with, and rightly predicting a survivors pathing and landing a sick potd is the best thing this game has to offer.
The game already has much RNG hardbaked into its dna, so it's not bad when hard-earned skills are rewarded every now and then.
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For real, there are a few cutter tiles in auto haven that I didn't knew were infinitesimal until a Claudette ran them with such perfection that I just couldn't gain any ground at her ... and there was no palette to destroy. So I had to either bruteforce a 35s blood list tier 3, or brake chase. The hight of excitement.
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Honestly, I like the IDEA of what this post is saying, but focusing so specifically in the original post is just going to muddy the conversation with that exact example.
Let's have a conversation about killers that aren't FUN due to a mix of their mechanics and interactions (or lack thereof), regardless of whether or not they are balanced/underpowered/overpowered.
Bonus points for suggesting how you would fix them without COMPLETELY redesigning the killers power!
Double Bonus points for not being a kiddy-poo and saying "delete [insert killer, probably Legion]".
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Well the game has to be fun for both sides. Right now I don't think there are any killers that need to be nerfed due to them being boring. The problem with the main two that have received nerfs due to it (Freddy and Spirit) is that they had no interactions. They created lose lose situations.
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My brother really took a video from Scott and made it into a post.
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Interactive holding mouse one gameplay on gens! Do gens as fast as possible get out quickly weeeeeee. Survivors really have no place to speak from when it comes to boring gameplay. From my perspective, unless that killer is boring because they always win and are actually broken, there is no problem and it’s just burn out and i would suggest a break from dbd
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I love how people complained about Freddy back then. He was just worse Clown (and still is) with a teleport. You were just predroping pallets just like how you play against Clown and he turned into an M1 killer with a long teleportation power. He was also completely powerless against awake survivors lmao
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Yeah only streamers can have opinions on gameplay; everything they say is correct. They are not just regular people who have a youtube account and an opinion.
Cringe.
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It’s funny because every time I’ve viewed his content it’s just him describing a killer he’s facing as boring. He tweeted out the other day that wesker is the most fun killer in dbd which means we can expect a “wesker is boring” comment in the not too distant future when a strat becomes popular.
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Most people just complained about the Forever Freddy build. I personally didn't like the passive Sleep timer and thought he should have to DO SOMETHING to make survivors fall asleep. Similar to how people recently complained about Legion and Plague with Thana. Any build that bogs down the games timers are going to get complaints.
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I feel as if some of the addons they have are really strong... like a bit too strong, but that's about my only issue.
Also, since I feel like this has flown under the radar a bit. Iron Will's nerf really did make Spirit a lot better and easier to use, especially when paired with Stridor. But that's just my two cents on the whole thing.
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His slowdown addons were just boring to face, not that strong but yeah they were not healthy design for the game at the same time. Other than his slowdown addons and BT deny, he was fine but also people massively overrated him. Freddy was most overrated killer in the game imo. Now he is completely trash.
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The only killers I find boring are Legion since the rework for obvious reasons, the Cenobite due to the consistent experience due to the Box and the Dredge because he's, as I see it, the most obnoxious killer in the game with way too much going for him.
Fortunately, Legion matches are going better due to people reacting more and learning to mend ASAP.
Dredge is very infrequent.
But I wish they'd address the box and chain hunt imbalanxd for PH and he would be a lot more fun to go against.
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A lot of complaints about things being “boring” end up just being people grumbling they can’t beat a particular killer by looping them all the time. When I see someone say “I have to hold W to get away” it tells me the survivor probably hasn’t learned to chain tiles together, not that there’s something wrong with the killer. Obviously I ignore those types of complaints.
Now that said I can see a little more validity in when something causes matches to become stalemates where survivors have trouble progressing the gens but the killer also has trouble securing downs. That’s the source of complaints about Legion. It’s not that Legion is too powerful, it’s that Legion is great and pushing people off gens but relatively bad compared to other killers at actually downing someone who’s already injured. So you can get this drawn out situation where survivors who can out play the Legion player at loops are doing gens one tiny bit at a time over and over and over and maybe they eventually win, maybe they lose, but either way the game takes 15 or 20 minutes to finish. If a survivor is calling that kind of scenario boring I can get see where they’re coming from.
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And maybe that her blink attack doesnt Count as a basic attack so 1 shot Nurse Build that finish a Game in 2 minutes arent possible anymore .... and this came from a Killer Main
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Legion is universally considered awful to play against and good Nurses are just pointless to even try against if you're not a top-level 4 man SWF. Aside from those and camping Bubba I think most killers are fine.
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And yet chases are the most fun part of this game. If you consider that running around a rock then why are you playing the game? There are gen skill checks sims online!
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I think you're misunderstanding the post (unless I'm also misunderstanding the post.) Survivors hate killers that can't be looped traditionally because being unable to loop is boring. Killers hate M1s with no antiloop tools because running in circles waiting for someone to drop a pallet so they can move onto the next tile and do the same thing is boring.
It's an asymmetrical game. What's fun for one side is usually the inverse for the other.
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Oops
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I was replying directly to your comment.
Looping is more than just running around waiting for pallet to drop. There are many tools/mindgames to make looping fun.
The only reason why Killer would hate on no anti loop tools would be just being bad at chases. Looping is bread and butter of this game, there's a reason why every map has 525234 structures built just for that.
Some survivors don't like anti loop killers because in a way it's breaking/ignoring the rules of the game and can be frustrating to play against (aka Nurse). Tho I personally don't have a problem with anti-loop killers. With couple of exceptions majority has some sort of counterplay.
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This game had become a "what's next"
Every time a new Killer comes out... players will play the new Killer till the excitement wears off then the Killer is known as "boring"
So it's just the way the game goes
But with Freddie it's a bit different... Players got used to his OG form... But then they changed it... So yea
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Whenever "fun" is brought up, something I consistently fail to see acknowledged is why a person thinks their personal sense of unfun/boringness is more important than that of those who find it fun. Changing something just because someone finds it unfun is a middle finger to those that find it fun. By nature of a versus game, there will never ever be a situation where all players will always have fun. Especially more so because it is an asymmetrical game where 1 character needs to be as strong as 4 working together. What someone finds fun, someone else will find unfun and vice-versa. Which is why changing things willy-nilly off 100% subjective standards people can't even agree on is illogical. There is no given way to make a thing "more fun", because it is entirely subjective in the first place.
If it’s not overwhelmingly hated by both sides (playing as and against both) or what the majority of a side finds fun and the majority of the other side finds unfun isn’t different things, changing balanced things just cause a group finds it unfun would be as illogical as not changing something unbalanced just cause a group finds it fun.
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But that was my first post in the thread?
Sure, because having no tools to avoid the pallet shuffle on the Game or Badham or Eyrie or any map where there's ample pallets and full visibility is just 'being bad at chases.' Mindgames are definitely a useful skill, but against a survivor that's watching behind them at all times, you're more likely to extend the chase by yourself than score a hit, especially if the structure has holes in its walls (like shack or certain maps' jungle gyms) or there's an impenetrable tile chain (like Suffo Pit or Cowshed.)
I think you have a skewed opinion on core gameplay when you say that all antiloop killers break or ignore the 'rules of the game.' Nurse, yeah, because she ignores every single aspect of map design. But loops aren't the end-all-be-all of DBD gameplay and they haven't been since Huntress showed up in '17.
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i find all killers fun to play against.
But they become boring when i face the same killers in a row.
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Nurse needs a rework, because she's holding the game back.
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This thread looks like it’s been a draft for two years and you decided to post it now. This is so outdated.
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Well, you either run around the rock three times and drop pallet or hold W. Both are brain dead strategies but somehow 80% of player base can't even do that. So 🤷♂️
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Sure doesn't seem like it when they've buffed 18 perks which made them good/great/insane on her and released 40 perks that are good/great/insane on her all this time. But yeah sure, she holds back the game which is why BHVR has buffed Starstruck from its PTB version and have virtually never said she is an issue ever past her initial two batch of nerfs she deserved.
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Why are we talking about a two year old ScottJund video?
Post edited by BenOfMilam on1 -
Nurse is a relic that represents what dbd used to be. Nurse simply doesn't fit with what the game has become. She holds the game back from what it could be. Perks have to be designed, buffed and nerfed based around what is possible with Nurse.
Maps are a huge problem for M1 killers. But smaller maps would indirectly buff Nurse. Weaker loops would, again, indirectly buff Nurse. Nurse's ability to ignore pallets, walls, windows, bodyblocks, and traverse freely via any path of her choosing was suitable for old dbd.
As the game gets older and older, it's crucial that older characters get revisited and reworked to fit the evolution of the game. In much the same way that Trapper having to traverse the map to collect his traps is outdated, so too is Nurse's power.
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Yeaaah. Which is why they've never had a problem releasing or buffing perks good or great on her.
Nurse is literally the killer affected least by maps. Maps don't need to be tiny, just moderate size and buff weaker killers. Tiles are irrelevant to her even if you weaken loops.
It's not good to state subjective opinions with zero evidence like fact.
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To cite the most recent piece of evidence, Wesker's perk Awakened Awareness had to be nerfed because of Nurse. The evidence that Nurse is holding the game back exists, but I'm not trying to change your mind.
Dead by Daylight has evolved from the deadly hide and seek game that it started out as, and concepts that worked well back then simply don't work well anymore. As the game evolves, older concepts need to evolve with it rather than hinder it.
Trapper needing to collect his traps at the start of the trial, Wraith being able to be burned out of his cloak, and Nurse being able to ignore every resource survivors have are all outdated concepts that fit the theme of what Dead by Daylight was, but no longer is.
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I'm glad you agree that Spirit, Legion, and Plague all hold back this game's design and balance because of the Stridor (which was a meme on anyone except Spirit vs Iron Will) and Thanatophobia (which only those two killers could reliably keep multiple people injured for) nerfs.
Nurse isn't balanced around tiles, because she doesn't play around tiles in the first place beyond LOS. She is the killer that is least affected by maps in everything except size, and as long as maps aren't giant or tiny, it's a non-issue.
McLean has answered questions regarding balancing around Nurse and how often she comes up in perk design discussions. His answer? That she comes up more often than expected but that she was never a sole reason for the devs to scrap an idea. They only do that if there's multiple killers it is a problem on. Outside of the singular AA nerf (which was a perk that sucked even before the nerf on everything except tiny maps), the devs have literally never mentioned her being a balance or design issue after her initial two batches of nerfs way back.
Nurse doesn't ignore every resource. Mindgaming is a core aspect to the game for every single killer in this game. LOS is an aspect that affects every single killer in this game, even Artist (who has to predict shots if they aren't crowed, which goes away partway through repel). There's a reason good survivors do fine at playing against her or even beating an equally good Nurse.
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Nurse is my main, and the game is too easy with her, alot of these killers who are boring to play against are actually really strong in loops e.g. clown, executioner which can avoid pallets but get beaten by survivors spreading out. this is why many people think high level dbd is boring, because you'll see nothing but spirit/nurses and usually u just need to get lucky at the 2
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that is literally the theme and title of the video tho.
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nurse is a sign of a declining era, at her peak she is almost unbeatable, no clipping through the map, the strong range addons, i dont even blame survivors for dcing against me, but then again its fun to play but not fun for survivor, which tends to be a trend these days
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eat a pizza dog
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No... a killer being "boring" is not a valid complaint. Just like a killer whining about "boring" survivor strats is not a valid complaint. A valid complaint would be finding a problem and discerning why it is a problem.
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But being boring for 80% of the people in the game *is* a problem. If you bore the majority of your player base, they move on to other games and stop buying dlcs and cosmetics.
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hag is the only truly boring killer
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What things in this game bore 80% of the entire playerbase? I'd love to see sources.
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I am not necessarily saying that being boring is not a problem, I am saying that the people who just call something boring without context and expect nerfs are not helping their own situation. It is why Legion never got nerfed despite all of the "boring killer" topic spam. The worst he got was them ruining Thanaphobia... For everyone but him? And there is not much they can do about it, either. Not without a full rework.
To that end, if this were to ever potentially happen, I strongly feel widespread requests for a rework would probably have a higher chance of getting the problem addressed than complaining about how boring he is. Albeit, I doubt they would rework him regardless. It is just kind of an example as one is genuine feedback and the other is complaining for the sake of it.
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Both of which failed to make them actually fun to interact with.
More fun than just breaking line of sight while holding W until the killer either gives up or kills you.
Most of the killers I despise in this game, I wouldn't even consider especially strong. They're just ######### annoying/boring to interact with.
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The only killer I'd willingly avoid if given a choice would be legion lmao mainly because I mainly play solo and I cba holding m1
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You're being facetious. You know very well I was just using that as 4 survivors for every killer in a match.
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Just cause 4 specific survivor players don’t have fun against 1 specific killer/killer player doesn’t mean there’s a problem.
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This correct. That's why "Nerf nurse" doesn't help. "Legion is boring" does not give any information to go on. Giving precise criticism on things like, being constantly stabbed and left so you have to mend over and over and over is both an irritating and the opposite of engaging gameplay. Criticism should be specific if any change is ever to be considered. Everyone should always state what they believe the problem is, and why it's a problem.
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