The extraordinary amount of BM killers can inflict on survivors needs to be addressed.
Because it's made me not want to play the game anymore. I'm not even T-bagging or clicking killers in my games and I'm regularly getting bled out/hit on hook/camped simply for playing the game well. Like holy hell I'm sorry I didn't fall for your garbage mindgame that I've seen 1000 times before or got a pallet stun on you. Don't take it so personally.
Killers essentially being able to force a person to not be able to play the game for over half the length of time a lot of games last is unacceptable and makes for a regularly agonizing experience.
"But what about SWF/clicky/T-bag squads!" Yes, I agree BM on both sides needs to be addressed but in the case of survivors inflicting BM on a killer the worst case scenario is you get a 4 stack that knows how to abuse double locker setups. In this scenario you need a well coordinated group of 4 people and multiple of them need to not screw up the timing. Or hope that the killer isn't running lightborne.
Killers have the ability to BM in every single winning game that they play and it takes 0 effort to do so. 4k'ing a soloQ team, bleeding out and nodding at the one player that can actually play the game and didn't get 2 tapped in a chase is way more common of a scenario not even counting the other ridiculously boring crap like LF facecamping.
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I wouldn't really equate being nodded at and being forced to bleed out, although fixing the latter would be nice
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How exactly do you propose preventing BMing, regardless of side?
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Alright, who - outside of me - actually runs lightborn? And there's no "messing up the timing" it's SO EASY
Edit: I didn't see your last point, why wouldn't you camp with Leatherface when it's literally his strength, why go kill people when they come to you obliviously
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Agreed, killers' ability to humiliate you and waste your time is obnoxious in some cases, and it often happens without any kind of provocation from the survivor side (looping well and trying your best to survive is not a provocation). Slugging and following you with their red stain is probably one of the worst offenders. Some killers have fragile egos and love to go on a crazy power trip with this game, showing no empathy for the other side.
There should be a chance to opt out from these kinds of situations without a penalty.
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There are really only 2 things a killer can do that I would consider bad manners. Bleeding people out unnecessarily and hitting people on the hook. Maybe facecamping at 4-5 gens but facecamping by itself is not toxic, especially when there are one or no generators left.
Killers can nod or shake their head at you but survivors can do it right back along with tea bagging, pointing and more.
I just don't see an "extraordinary amount of BM" killers can inflict on survivors.
Survivors can hold killers hostage for crying out loud.
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Hmm ... I feel that I have experienced WAY more BMing as a killer then I could ever dole out to the survivors, even if I tried to, but situations like this can never be resolved by counting the offends and declaring one side the more valid one, because "it suffers 3 instances more" then the other.
That being said, is nodding really that bad? I always percieved it as rather passive and one of the only ways how killers can convay anything to the survivors that isn't strictly aggressive. But I guess the same could be said about some t-bagging, which I hate like the plague.
Hitting on the hook though is scummy in nearly all cases. Again, this can be nuanced, but also plays out a lot in the different players heads. When a survivor gives me a really hard time and loops really well, I like to give them a single slap on the hook as sort of praise? Acknowledgement that they did well? Something like that. Its like a survivor t-bagging to beg for mercy or pointing at you when you corner them at the exit gates but decide not to down them. Both can be used to be toxic, but they can also be more nuanced in different situations. Same with a single slap on the hook. But yeah, those that slap you continuously on the hook normally got their frail ego damaged by your looping skills ^^
Bleeding out ... well, thats a different beast. I sometimes have bleed out the last member of a team of extreme bullies who did nothing but try to make my match as miserable as possible, with all the double lockers and dirty techs that they can muster. I know that they are in a SWF and the last one won't DC, as not to let everyone stare at the screen for even longer then the bleed out, so this is a sort of educational payback; its probably still petty and not the morally high road, but hey, they showed me how much they love bullying, so I gave them a small taste of their own medicine.
But killers can also bleed out entirely innocent survivors, just because they are edgy or spiteful or grumpy or slept bad that day, and thats not cool. I would rather not be able to get back at those bullies, then have an innocent player waste 4min of their life. And there is a solution on the horizon: BHVR is working on a special mori when the last survivor is downed. In that case the killer and survivor are spirited away to the middle of the map, the mori arena, and the survivor is moried in the most camera friendly manner, with no chance of being bleed out and wasting 4min. The details are still murky, but I think that this is a good development and will adress most of the grief with intentional bleedout; on both sides, mind you. Survivors can also spite the killer by hiding in some far corner of the bush and rather bleed and waste the killers time, then giving them the satisfaction of a 4k. Every time this is brought up some clever survivor player will chime in and parot something along the lines "well, sorry that not every survivor rolls over and dies just as you please. Also, they might just try to maximise their survival points for max BP". Yeah, thats probably the most inefficient way of gaining BP and nothing but a thinly veiled attempt of justivying THIS ego trip, but thats ok, both should be shut down in the future, when the auto mori triggers.
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I wish devs would stop defending it. It's one thing to bleed out survivors but entirely different to hold them after they've gone afk. That right there should be worthy of a permanent ban.
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yeah, bleeding out or hitting on hook sucks... but what I hate most is if I face a trickster and they not only let ypou bleed out but also constantly throws his knives at you while you´re bleeding out.
Everytime this happens I can´t help but think that this perosn has to be serious problems in real life
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Flaslight saves are hard even good survivors miss the timing. Nurse is easier for me than getting flashlight save.
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The thing is some killers BM because someone on your team is BMing them or the killer has been annoyed and BM a previous match. While this gives no reason it's often the case (although there are some killers who get annoyed if you loop them for a long time)
HOWEVER I still wouldn't put this into the same as survivors, survivors do it far to often and I dont even like seeing it when they're on my team "oh let's BM and fast vault at the exit"
But alot cant be fixed because it's just base game mechanics like looking up and down to even slugging...
You can however stop survivor spamming notifications or Marco flashlights but that's about it
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I'd say it depends on the killer, basic pickup animations are really easy to learn because as soon as the animation hits a certain point you aim the flashlight and the animations are pretty clear.
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Hitting the survivor on the hook more than once when no other survivor is within 3 meters around the hook gives a -5k BP penalty per hit.
You get one hit for free to acknowledge a good fight and everything beyond that will be punished.
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Not bad, we can do that. While we are at it, can we also apply a -500BP for every fast vault within 10m of an exit gates, if the killer is not around? Or -100BP per Flashlight click outside of blinding techs? Oh, this would be so fun for marcro clickers ... BTW, I am genuinly backing your idea up, so maybe -5k per hit is a bit much. Maybe make it start at -1k and add 1k to each consecutive swing.
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yes please punish the flashlight clickers.
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Some survivors have fragile egos also. That's why posts like this exist.
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Yeah that 5K is too harsh like when I played drunk I facecamped and hit everyone on hook like 100 times. Maybe it was bit too much but it kept my friends entertained at least. But the hits are actually good thing as that allows other survivors to do save without trading if it's not bubba. I saved dwight on endgame when demo was facecamping and hitting him on hook so I did quick save while he was on cooldown and both of us got out. So if killers are punished from it those kind of saves are not possible. Bleeding last survivor out however should be punished if killer is close and does not hook and hooks are close. Only time when it's acceptable is when there are no hooks nearby and he can wiggle off. This will be solved if basekit mori is added so you automatically kill the last survivor.
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I mean, if you guys are doing the 2 locker exploit OP mentioned, then you really do have a lot of time to line it up
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Ironic that you think I take the game seriously just because I face camp you, which I literally do for fun, all the while you rage about it on the internet and put up very defensive barriers to your communication. Seems legit.
I do not care if you are good or not, you were going to get camped because you were the first down. Nothing personal, kid. A face camp God does not concern himself with your state of mind as he face camps you. Just enjoy the beating on hook, it is a privilege to be beaten by someone as adept at face camping as ThiccBuddha.
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whats wrong with face camping i do it all the time
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A survivor who's gone AFK has already committed the ultimate BM. If I wanna use them as a backpack for my Agitation + Mad Grit that's just sound tactical play... and also hilarious.
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Hell yeah, i mainly play survivor but facecamping killers are the ultimate satisfaction.
And if it's a basement bubba with insidious, cherry on top <3
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I would take being bm'ed by killer any day rather than being dunked on and bm'ed by 4 people.
Both are bad but the most stress I can get is when I play weaker killer and go against teams like that.
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lmao yes so hilarious letting the last survivor bleed out but picking them up just before they die. So enjoyable and fun to see the killer hold them until the survivor comes back and attempts to wiggle out.I'm talking about the last survivor here. A rage quitter is a different scenario.
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Anything that prevent game from ending actually will be banned, whether it's killer or survivor.
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Nobody considers a bit of bleed out or hitting on hook to be thematically appropriate?
Seriously bleed out has a 4 min timer it ends. That is the solution to being slugged indefinitely, any shorter of a timer would probably not be enough to keep you up if slugged continuously throughout the game.
As for hitting on hook it’s not like it makes your hook timer go down quicker or anything it’s akin to just camping.
People attach attach all these negative emotions to it but really it could be seen as thematic gameplay given the genre.
Obnoxious play exists on both sides and for the most part is just that obnoxious.
I can forgive a lot of obnoxious killer play because to torture your victim seems on par with the theme. Obnoxious survivor play feels a lil more out of place but if your goal is to taunt your opponent into chasing you it does work.
People are really sensitive about this game though which has always baffled me. Don’t project negative emotions onto your opponents simply because they engage in play that you don’t like.
Half the time if I give someone a couple of snacks on hook it’s to tip my hat to them for a good chase.
Don’t take it so personally and you’ll see your resilience to it increase in no time.
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I feel you with the hook smacking. I just think it's funny and sometimes in character. Unfortunately survivors tend to take it the wrong way. There is no room for killer to have fun sometimes.
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Even in that rare case I think you're overreacting. I've never seen or heard of this happening until now.
The survivor already went AFK waiting to bleed out and for the game to end. If the killer prevents the bleed out with a pick up the killer is just wasting their own time, not the survivor's. When the survivor returns (or as soon as the pickup occurs if the survivor didn't go AFK) they start to wiggle and the game is over in a few seconds anyway.
No one is actually being held hostage and no permaban should occur even though it is scummy.
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Yeah I don’t expect other players to take it the way I do. Shame.
But I’d also hate to see the grittier thematic aspects of the game watered down simply because some players can’t leave their emotions at the door when playing and as a result always think the worst of their opponents.
Even obnoxious games can end with a GG and a laugh at the end.
I’m not the biggest fan of obnoxious play in general but it doesn’t make your opponent some terrible person out to ruin your fun. It’s just gameplay.
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I’m pretty lazy game wise and run lightborn a lot.
It’s not hard to avoid a flashy save but it’s easier to just ignore it outright.
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Unless you're a kid or a neet having your game time wasted is a pretty big deal.
It's like spending your only 2 hours of free time for that week at the theater and having someone talk the whole time. Just let people enjoy their free time.
Post edited by Cybil on3 -
Yeah, I remember this Wesker player being absolutely relentless while chasing me during a match. I was mad salty from an earlier game and started projecting a bit of my frustration towards him during those chases. Post game revealed he was actually really enjoying himself and it totally changed my mood. Humbled me even.
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Killers have never been able to BM survivors more than survivors have been able to BM killers. In addition to that, survivors are easily more notorious for BMing the killer, with or without anything that comes close to justification.
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Spread the word my brethren, of our lord and saviour Lightborn 😎
Amen.
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Eh, when you're stuck in the grab from the locker exploit OP is talking about, it's very easy to hit flashy saves from what I've seen
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Brother, I shall do just that
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Allow players to speed up the bleed out timer when slugged, or just give up. I’m sick of killers leaving me and others to bleed out for no reason
I love how us vs them this thread is. Idc what side you’re on BM is not ok.
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You are still blowing this way out of proportion.
- If the player chooses to play a video game, they are choosing to waste their time. Not the other players in the game.
- A maximum of 5 minutes of their time is wasted. If they go AFK it doesn't even count. This does not compare with other games like say a building game like Minecraft where someone spent hours building something and a griefer blows it up in seconds with TNT. Or Rust where a door camper can stop another player from progressing for a lot longer than 5 minutes. The movie theater is not a good analogy because they can ruin an experience that is much longer than 5 minutes and as soon as a theater employee is informed that person will be told to STFU or GTFO.
- You want to punish players for something the devs allow to happen. There should be options other than DCing to end an already lost game faster. Like if there are no survivors left not on the floor in the dying state and they're fully recovered they could attempt to get up with a 4% chance and if they fail they lose 30 seconds off their bar and they can try again after fully recovering to 95% again.
- Your proposed punishment is far too severe. You want players who can do something legitimately in game to be permabanned. They paid for the game too, just like you. They can play it how they like. If they are not holding the game hostage or cheating, they don't deserve a permaban, simple as that.
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Well yeah but that’s hardly comparable to regular flashy saves.
You’re stuck in animation and can’t move your head.
It’s basically an exploit of mechanics. Rather than savvy game play.
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Is there just some magic region/time zone where killers somehow bleed people out every other match? At most I experience some nice hook slaps, but it's not the end of the world. I agree bleeding out 4 people is annoying though and there needs to be a concede or a quicker way to force bleed out. At least that actually has a realistic end as just waiting 4 minutes meanwhile locker save players you're playing a 10-15 min match hoping they get bored or somehow mess up the timing they practice every game. You shouldn't have to run lightborn to counter a stalling mechanic that doesn't progress the objective at all.
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I finally figured out why this forum feels so familiar.
It's largely composed of warhammer old world era dwarves, and this forum is actually a book of grudges. Way to adapt to the new world 👍
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you need professional help.
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a dumb question, what is BM?
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It's not fun, it's not fair to the one on hook and it's pretty shameless and underhanded. Camping is never okay. And I'm a Killer Main.
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This is exactly why it's nice to spare a survivor with hatch now and then, or not go too hard on a group with a disconnect, etc. Yeah, it's not necessary but other people wanna have fun too... And it's not very cool to ruin everyone else's fun, in a multiplayer game.
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It capitalizes on survivor mistakes, and in some cases like I said Bubba, it's necessary because it literally plays to his strength, but you seem to be the kind of person that has a solid mindset on everything and can't change their mind, so have a good day
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Ew
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Hard false. I consider actions that have little or no agency for the other side of the interaction as BMing. The only action Survivors can take that removes all Killer agency is tbagging at the exit gate. That however is limited to 2 minutes max, and the Killer doesn't need to watch the Survivors tbag. The Killer can even hit them to force them out early, taking ~22s to get rid of all 4 Survs (~32 if they all perfectly time DH or otherwise use one instance of Endurance each).
Killers on the other hand can 4 minute bleedout slug. They can also facecamp on hook. They can also hard tunnel off of hook, facecamped or not. So Survivors have 1 instance of giving no agency BM that can be cut short by the victim. Killers have 3, with 1 instance of no agency end early BM and 2 instances of no or low agency from the victim. (Facecamping can give up on hook to end BM early for the victim, but that benefits the Killer. Tunneling in deadzones with no pallets/vaults is no agency, low agency if they already got deepwounded and reached a loop/vault. Bleedouts can be countered by pickup perks but those are typically limited.)
Any other gameplay acts are like an MMO taunt to draw aggro. Alternatively they are the equivalent of trashtalking to put your opponent on tilt and snowball misplays. Prime example for Survivor being clicky clicky tbag at a vault. The Killer still has agency and can outplay the Survivor and do their own trashtalk equivalent with nodding or shaking their head. Like "nono you vaulted too late" or "yep you suck, I got that hit before you dropped the pallet".
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Ah a fellow survivor who finds satisfaction in getting the killer to face camp them
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We're not supposed to care about the other side's feelings when the goal is to win. This is fake virtue signaling that's been done to death. We don't have to be jerks for no reason, which is what you were attempting to argue, but you're drawing on examples of things that are toxic and you claim they're not, and things that aren't toxic that you're claiming are. It's crazy to me how you think the killer slugging, camping, and tunneling is meant for BM rather than strategic advantage, but you excuse tbagging and clicking, conveniently the survivors' BM, and admit that it's to make the killer angry so they misplay.
I'm comparing things you have to do in order to win with things you don't have to do to win. Survivors being toxic isn't a "mindgame". THAT would be being a bad sport, not all this other stuff you're saying. "Draw aggro." Please, as if you can't do that without clicking and tbagging. And like, are you still mindgameing in the endgame chat when you're being toxic, making the killer misplay in other games that you have no business being involved in? But it's the same with killer. Hit someone on hook once, they get the benefit of the doubt that they don't want to hear the scream over everything else. Hit them on hook multiple times, and that's clearly BM. You can let someone bleed out and it be toxic, but if they're the ones who crawled to a hook deadzone and refuse to leave, it's very much their fault, not the killer's.
Y'all talk a big talk, and smoke the Sherlock Holmes pipe as you're delivering your intellectual dribble, but at the end of the day you're just defending bullies, and calling people bullies who are just playing the game without any foul intentions.
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I listed unique interactions for Killer and Survivor, and Killer has more unique interactions that can be used for BM. Killers and Survivors both can "taunt" in chase, so that isn't unique. I will say you seem to disagree with yourself when you say "We're not supposed to care about the other side's feelings..." then also claim in the same post claim clicky clicky tbag during chase is toxic.
Comparing things you have to do to win - You don't have to camp or tunnel to win unless you are garbage at the game fullstop. I regularly win my games going for the ole 2 hook tango (2 hooks each Survivor) before I go for kills. Anyone claiming otherwise clearly lacks the skills required to win without using the easy way out by hard camping and tunneling.
In the case of the 4 minute bleedout due to no hooks that is on the Survivor and it is their choice to distract the killer in the corner of the map instead of taking a hook. I was speaking to the intentional "average Nurse player gameplay" downing everyone and letting them bleed out when you know you can hook them. In the middle ground equation if it is the last Survivor who was slugged for some time now and Hatch is closed I can't quite blame either side. The Killer did the right thing in killing everyone else and once they closed Hatch the onus is on the Survivor to not wiggle if they want to not wait out the Bleedout. If the Survivor does wiggle and run back to the corner it is clear they chose their method of death.
Also I never defended endgame chat being a sore winner. But I will defend now calling someone out for their BM. If you call someone a loser for BMing you are well within your rights, it just can't cross the line into the full on legitimate Harassment (dox/death threats) not only because it is wrong, but also because it is bannable. Edit: Also you can turn chat off and never look at it, so both sides have agency in never being insulted in the first place.
Also to your final line about "calling people bullies who are just playing the game without any foul intentions." I would quote Dr. Julian Bashir.
"Causing people to suffer because you hate them... is terrible. But causing people to suffer because you have forgotten how to care... that's really hard to understand."
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