Trying to Figure Out Why People Are Upset
Okay, instead of just posting in other people's threads, let me try my own. Maybe there is some issue that I'm missing about the idea of survivors being able to get back up after 45 seconds, but it sounds like a great change. Let's cover fun, theme, strategy, and testing.
1: Fun - Laying on the ground is boring. Now not every element of game can be great all the time, if a bunch of the player base is saying 'this thing right here is awful' you should try and fix it.
2: Theme - A piece of advice I received from a Killer main on how to deal with slugging is do something else that's not DBD. Since then whenever I'm playing DBD I have something else to alt-tab to in case I get slugged/face camped. The idea that a game built around tension and horror is better when a player has a back up activity in case of a tedious strategy indicates that something should be changed.
3: Strategy - Right now a survivor needs to spend roughly 30 second on the ground and then get tapped by a teammate to be up. Under the proposed changes the survivor needs to spend 45 seconds with no tap. In either situation a teammate can come early to speed up the process + be there to heal.
Is this an improvement for survivors, yes, but not quite to the extent people seem to be making it out to be. It does eliminate the strategy of patrolling a downed body in the hopes of catching the person making the rescue, but strategies that hold players hostage should be removed from the game.
4: Testing - Maybe the proposed numbers will unbalance the game. We'll see, the numbers can always be changed. Concerns about how many seconds it should be should not override discussion about the overall concept.
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Basically, this sounds like a great addition. Things that are not fun for the players and kill the theme are bad elements, bad elements should try and be fixed. Good of the devs for looking to improve the game.
Comments
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I'm upset because they absolutely murdered Rancor and actually made No Mither worse.
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To me it looks the guy who fixed Blast Mine in previous patch has now been promoted to Lead balance designer
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This isn't taking into account the fact it will never be 45 seconds - it will be 22 seconds every single time.
And swfs will weaponize it.
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Before, slugging occupied three survivors: 1 slugged, 1 being chased, 1 coming to pick up.
Now, especially with Unbreakable, nobody needs to come pick up. The pressure of slugging at vital moments has been nerfed approximately to 66% of what it was before.
This is a huge nerf and it deserves all of the backlash it's receiving.
It is just a PTB, but how many times in the past has BHVR released a PTB, the community has pointed out huge problems, and they are set live anyway?
Remember Boil Over? This is that, but worse.
A lot worse.
And I have little faith in BHVR to change course at this point.
At least with 6.1 they did address endurance stacking and Reassurance being busted before it went live, so there's a glimmer of hope. But the track record thus far gives me significant cause for worry.
BHVR doesn't seem to ever consider how stuff they introduce will be (ab)used at the top levels of play, at least not until people show them after they've already released it.
We need to start making noise now, and I'm glad people are.
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Fair enough, but different issue then the get up mechanic.
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Do you think that if they keep unbreakable only being able to be used once it will fix the problem, like only have it be 22 seconds the one time and then back to a normal 45
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Unbreakable perk needs to be either removed or full rework TBH. 22 seconds is absurd any amount.
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Do all game decisions have to be made based on how it will work for SWF? While I don't know if there are any recent numbers to my understanding this is a minority of the player base.
If Unbreakable ends up being that powerful and 22 seconds is game breaking do you think they won't touch it? We just had BHVR telling us that they want kill rates around 60% - it seems unlikely that they would radically change their opinion on that idea a week later.
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But isn't unbreakable only 24 seconds in the current patch? Though, I agree a complete rework could be good since there is no real need for it to exist if it's going to be base kit.
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I agree, people are overreacting. For most killers and most games I slug maybe once or twice a match and even in those cases this change wouldn't make too huge a difference beyond that it means someone doesn't have to run to pick up the slugged person so they get a bit of extra gen time out of it in those cases. But I just don't see it as being a game crushing difference the bulk of the time.
Of course, I'm not saying there are definitely not going to be some issues. It could well be that Unbreakable at 100% is too much or 45 seconds is too short and those numbers need to be adjusted to prevent hypothetical exploit situations with swfs similar to the Boil Over squads when they perk originally got buffed. But until we see that in action in the PTB it's hard to tell if that'll be an actual problem or if it'll be something that's easy to get around by just hooking the survivors more often. Fortunately the self revive is easy to adjust by tweaking that 45 seconds up to 60 or 75 or 90 seconds, for instance, if need be, and with a long enough timer self revive is obviously not a problem (i.e. if the time is long enough then someone will go to revive the slugged player anyway because being short a person for a really, really long time is worse than picking them up.)
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I'm unhappy because moris were a fun style aspect of the game and the proposed change absolutely murders them on all levels. No photobombing moris, no picking cool spots, less ability to mori people than before, mori offerings turned into trashy conditional BP offerings, Rancor gutted and Devour made boring for no reason whatsoever.
Free Unbreakable also empowers no-hooks-allowed SWFs, which were already painful to deal with. There were ways to fix stuff like slugging for the 4k and killers slugging everyone to death for no reason without going full nuclear on this.
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A great question! Let's do a quick track record of absolutely busted things given to survivors that had to be rolled back in dbds history
1. Infinites
2. Pallet vaccum
3. Insta heals
4. Insta blinds
5. BNP insta completing a gen
6. Stun/blind at any part of the pickup animation dropping the survivor
7. Old mettle of man
8. Old circle of healing
9. Old Decisive strike
10. Old object of obsession
11. Old dead hard
So, given BHVRS track record of survivor things I think it totally reasonable that yes they will flub it and let it go to live and then patch it months/years later like all of the issues highlighted above. Many of which were called out regularly and in some cases in advance on the PTB and still got in.
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1 slugged, 1 chased, 1 pick up becomes 1 slugged for longer and 1 chased. I'll grant that makes survivors stronger, but it doesn't seem to be the level people are saying.
And if you want the 1/1/1, take the risk to throw them on the hook.
Unbreakable: It still takes a perk slot and is useless if you never have a situation were you aren't just picked up and thrown on the hook.
Top Levels of Play: Slugging is abused at low and mid level of play ruining games. Even if everything you say is 100% correct and unfixable, its a worthwhile change to make the game better for, to my understanding, the vast majority of players and worry about how to fix the issue with the minority occurrences later. BHVR would be crazy if they had any other type of strategy.
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SWF's weaponizing it is a key point
Then Killers will have to play with that in the back of their minds
But then that will mean that players will be using different perks (SWF's definitely will)
So that means even more pressure on Killer starting from the lobby screen (watch how many Killers back out of lobbies)
And with this change Corrupt becomes even more laughable (just imagine a SWF running at the Killer to be downed -Corrupt is now gone- and just saboing nearby hooks running Breakout/ Unbreakable/ OTR -if need be-/ and whatever perk they think will work)
I really am not liking the way the Devs are handling this game... like seriously all they needed to do is to increase base Gen regression and make changes to the regression perks
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I'm mostly upset about the moris because that change really sucks. I actually like the idea of unbreakable base kit. Lets see how it affects the escape rates.
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Devs are simply tackling severe gameplay flaws that the community has unfortunately become accustom to. These are changes that the game has needed for a long time and they're obviously not stopping here.
With how one sided this community often is the backlash should not have surprised me. Seems like too many dbd players spend their time avoiding solo queue because of the flaws the dev team has been addressing this year.
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Everyone is worried about swfs. What about how this is a good change for solo q players that get left slugged by swfs. Are they supposed to stay slugged for 4 minutes because the swf doesn’t want help them?
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I will say endurance stacking wasn't a real problem. It was a meme that had little to no value in progressing a win. It is a problem now for good game design since they stacked all viable anti-tunnel effects onto Endurance, so now you can't reliably have protection against tunneling. At the very least have anti-tunnel Endurance not apply deep wound, that is the minimum fix imo.
Also Reassurance had 1 abuse case and they gutted the perk for it rather than preventing the abuse. They just needed to allow giving up on hook, and they hyper nerfed it instead. Before it was a reasonable counter to facecamping, now Bubba still gets his free dubskees.
This may actually ruin tournament level gameplay, but nothing of value would be lost. Just like with Smash Bros. a clear party game is much better when not taken so seriously. Use items and don't only play on Final Destination. The enjoyment of the game suffers when you make it sweaty.
The real change that is bad is no more 3/4 Moris from Hex Devour Hope. I need my Ghostie photobook filled with more Survs!
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1 slugged, 1 chased, 1 pick up becomes 1 slugged for longer and 1 chased. I'll grant that makes survivors stronger, but it doesn't seem to be the level people are saying.
22 seconds to pick yourself up is not "slugged for longer." Recovering from 0% takes 32 seconds, this is actually faster than someone coming to pick you up.
If this change goes through, UB will be effectively required meta like DH was. You will see all 4 survivors running it every match, especially since old DH required at least some skill to use effectively; UB requires no skill at all. You would be insane not to bring it.
And if you want the 1/1/1, take the risk to throw them on the hook.
Tell me you don't play killer without telling me you don't play killer.
The amount of time required to hook someone gives the other survivor right on top of you a crazy amount of distance, and it takes mere seconds to unhook vs taking 30 seconds to pick up. Slugging can actually generate more pressure than hooking under the right circumstances. Instead of slugging being sometimes the right play when the survivors are caught together, basekit UB makes it pretty much never the right play. It takes away a huge tool the killer has to punish survivor mistakes.
Survivors will be able to throw the match and still get 2 or 3 out. This already can happen with UB as it exists today and people are claiming that it won't happen with basekit unlimited UB.
Top Levels of Play: Slugging is abused at low and mid level of play ruining games. Even if everything you say is 100% correct and unfixable, its a worthwhile change to make the game better for, to my understanding, the vast majority of players and worry about how to fix the issue with the minority occurrences later. BHVR would be crazy if they had any other type of strategy.
If you mean bleeding everyone out for 4 minutes, there are other ways to address that short of giving everyone one of the strongest meta perks in the game for free, with unlimited uses.
The survivors' primary resource is numbers: spreading themselves across the maps and pressuring gens.
The killer's primary resource is time: knowing where to spend their time is key.
This change removes one of the primary mechanisms killers have to buy themselves a little more time. I pretty much never run 4 stacked slowdown perks because I think other perks are more fun, but if this change goes through then it may become necessary because BHVR is removing a play style that can be used to naturally slow down the game.
Balancing around the low-to-mid MMR range is a mistake many other games have fallen into and it winds up killing the game in the long run, because the devoted players who are at high MMR leave. I'm not saying you can't give buffs that help in the lower brackets but you have to consider how it's going to affect the higher brackets. If it makes them borderline unplayable then you have a problem.
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Tell me you don't play killer without telling me you don't play killer.I don't play killer outside of archive because it is embarrassingly easy starting out as Killer. I have no problem believing there is some threshold/time period of the day were killer becomes a challenge, I'm just aware that is not the experience all the time. And while I don't have access to the data, I doubt coordinated 4 player SWF is a common experience across the player base.
The amount of time required to hook someone gives the other survivor right on top of you a crazy amount of distance, and it takes mere seconds to unhook vs taking 30 seconds to pick up.Sure, there are trade offs. Now the trade offs are different than they were before. Players will adapt.
I pretty much never run 4 stacked slowdown perks because I think other perks are more fun, but if this change goes through then it may become necessary because BHVR is removing a play style that can be used to naturally slow down the game.I mean, it sounds like to accomplish your goal you are going to have to use perks, which is what survivors are constantly told they need to do to counter killer play styles. The advantage for killer is you don't have to coordinate with anyone else to actually do so.
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And while I don't have access to the data, I doubt coordinated 4 player SWF is a common experience across the player base.
You don't need a coordinated 4-player SWF to make this change ridiculously OP, you just need all 4 survivors running UB and holding M1 any time they go down, which players should already be doing.
It's a ridiculous nerf to a legitimate killer tactic, for apparently no justifiable reason.
Sure, there are trade offs. Now the trade offs are different than they were before. Players will adapt.
The trade-offs effectively remove an entire tactic. The decision of hooking vs slugging required game sense to determine which was the best play at a given moment. This change removes that choice; slugging is never the right play anymore, unless the survivors are playing so horribly that you can get a second down fast enough to go back and hook the first slug, in which case you're probably going to win no matter how you play anyway.
I mean, it sounds like to accomplish your goal you are going to have to use perks, which is what survivors are constantly told they need to do to counter killer play styles. The advantage for killer is you don't have to coordinate with anyone else to actually do so.
Yes, the same perks that survivors complain about on here all the time. This seems like a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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1- "Laying on the ground is boring" - laying on hook isn't much more fun, is it? Because there's where you're going if the killer can't slug you. As a killer, losing the option for a whole strategy is terrible for the fun.
2 - As I see, this huge survivor buff make the survivor always more safe as certain strategies against them won't work anymore. There's even less tension if you know you're not in danger and can just save yourself without help. Not very horrifying.
3 - That's the point, there's no strategy with this. No teamwork required, you just pick yourself up and a whole strategy is removed from the killer's options.
Also: Devour and Rancor got Nerfed, Knock Out was made BORDERLINE USELESS. The whole new mori mechanic is boring and repetivive as hell as there will be never more than one mori per game, and only on preset points of the map. And also... can you imagine a map like Midwich, with awful hook spawns and huge areas with no hook, when all the survivors have infinite base-kit unbreakable so you can't slug?
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they literally removed moris!! and they murdered my favourite perk!
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How much fun is it going to be when no one wants to play killer anymore?
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I have no issue with Killers losing a “tactic” to Kill. Honestly survivors have had their “tactics” nerfed to the ground for the last 2-3 years to survive.
- Toolboxes are basically useless unless you bring a BNP. And you better be great at hitting them small skill checks or you basically wasted your part.
- Sabotaged hooks take less time to come back. They literally are gone for less time that it would take for a survivor to pick themselves back up.
- Key/Hatch both nerfed into oblivion. Leaving one less legitimate way to end a match.
- DS nerfed so badly you can’t even use it anymore legitimately.
- DS, OTR, not even being useful during the end game.
I really don’t care nor do I legitimately feel like having UB as basekit is taking anything away from the Killer. I am pleased that now super Nurses can’t slug their way to a 4k in under a minute with no gens done. That has been needed to be fixed for the LONGEST of time!!!
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I was under the impression that you can't pick yourself up 100% faster with unbreakable but you recover that much faster and you'd still need a teammate to pick you up unless it's been 45 seconds. Am I wrong?
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I wouldn't really waste time around new UB since it will be 100% nerfed anyway just like Reassurance and other perks.
But new Devour, Rancor and Mori offering changes? I do not like those tbh
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Yeah
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Oh they most certainly will heck I listed out a big issue with it by just listing out the old boilover abuse strategy that swfs used in its own thread and if someone like me who plays both sides can see how easily this can be abused you know there will be swfs out here weaponizing it
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I posted this on another thread when someone was fearmongering about "seeing Killers nerfed into oblivion" after the new sats.
They may not nerf the Killers but they may nerf the way a lot of people get their 61% kill rates.
Guess I wasnt wrong, Killer mains are fuming because slugging is a very powerful tool against Solos and is one of the easiest and most rewarding ways to secure 4K but is also one of the worst aspects of this game to face as Survivor, it has to get tweaked.
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Yeah, I wonder why people are reacting so violently to this change-
*looks at Oni and Twins*
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Well, given the fact that survivor already can force the killer to slug as the only viable option in multiple scenarios, making that last option also a lose/lose situation will most probably end up in weaponization and abuse again if the devs aren't careful with the tweaks and balancing.
Both sides and survivor just "recently", with boil over, have shown that they won't hesitate to abuse whatever they can get.
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Its a bad change.
It might be unfun, but so is being hooked. Slugging is that equivalent.
There's just no reason to add it to the game. Especially when they haven't added more things to stop survs from infinitely looping.
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1) Sabo builds have always been viable and it will be even more viable after this proposed change. Also, green toolboxes are still good and have good synergy with other gen builds. Just because you can't instantly do gens with a BNP anymore or permanently sabo all the hooks doesn't mean toolboxes have no use. Are you actually having trouble hitting those basic BNP skill checks by the way? Something about your comment tells me not to be surprised
2) If your team is denying hooks correctly then this is irrelevant because the person will get free anyway. In SoloQ? Hit or miss, just like literally everything else involving SoloQ at the moment
3) Why am I not surprised that a person who plays only one side of the game thinks slugging (a legitimate strategy unfortunately abused by trolls) should be nerfed with no compensation for all the new issues it will cause but multiple boosted Survivors getting a free escape just because 1 person spent 10,000 bloodpoints for a key + hatch offering was a "legitimate" way to end a match? Yeah, old keys definitely weren't abused by very low level Survivors and SWFs at all 😐️ I (and I'm sure most people) can't respect the opinion of anybody that thinks the old Keys and old Moris were fair for either side. They were both very clearly busted
4) DS is now best paired with OTR and other chase perks, you can no longer abuse it offensively or have it single handedly carry a match and counter a tunnel by istelf. You need to run it in combination with something else just like you need to pair Lethal with another info perk to maximize its value, there's no issue with that especially considering you get Iron Will for free with OTR. The only fair point to make is that DS was fine at 5 seconds instead of 3, it was just endgame value that was an issue
I took a quick look at your page and according to you the original Decisive was fairly balanced, Old keys and hatch were fairly balanced and the bugged version of Boil Over was fine. It all makes sense now, a selfish Survivor-only player taking any chance they get to further the us vs them mindset and bragging about cutting their nose off to spite their face. Of course you don't see an issue with unlimited Unbreakable, you've never seen ANY issues with Survivor apparently lmao
For somebody that doesn't like tunneling, camping, or slugging you sure do like to celebrate and brag about perks/items/playstyles that promote tunneling, camping or slugging
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The best balance change they could ever do is make the game server based and eliminate 95% of all hacking. Until then, none of these matter. Yall complain over peanuts. Doesnt matter how good or how bad a mechanic is when 1 in 5 matches has a hacker.
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Im going to use your topics and answer according to them, from a killers point of view.
1: Fun - Laying on the ground is boring. i agree, but whats also boring is having 2 or 3 people trying to block your first hook so you dont get to hook anyone, in those situation hard slugging is a viable and legit punishment. To me it happens more often than being slugged for 4 minutes straight and i play SoloQ aswell.
2: Theme - A piece of advice I received from a Killer main on how to deal with slugging is do something else that's not DBD. Thats a dumb advice, if you get slugged hardcore make sure to at least max out points by recovering, the only reasonable thing to do. And after that if you want to speed things up try crawl towards killer or dont hide if you want it to end. When i go for endgame 4k slug which i only do if i have a certain challenge, it happens super often survivors are hiding somewhere i cant find them. Either they dont like getting slugged which again i can fully understand. But then im surprised they hide in corners and such when slugged. Basekit UB for the last man standing would be a great thing for this, permanent unbreakable is just too much for abuse for bully squads.
3: Strategy - Right now a survivor needs to spend roughly 30 second on the ground and then get tapped by a teammate to be up. Under the proposed changes the survivor needs to spend 45 seconds with no tap. In either situation a teammate can come early to speed up the process + be there to heal. <-- but why would they if they know they're going to pick themselves up anyway? This just destroys the meaning of teamplay which is right now the only way to win. You have 4 v 1 and make it so 4 players dont depend on each other in those situations. SWF can just play and coordinate around it and soloQ will get even more "i try to survive, the other 3 mates are there for... yah, theyre there." SoloQ alredy is hard because people play way too selfish or way too altruistic without even able to coordinate properly. This will just make all of that even worse.
4: Testing - Maybe the proposed numbers will unbalance the game. We'll see, the numbers can always be changed. Concerns about how many seconds it should be should not override discussion about the overall concept. <--- have no single argument against that. My main concern is not the numbers, they will be changed. But the general direction this update will push the game towards, more sweaty, more rushed, faster, more selfish playes, etc. Its just getting more tournament now noone can possibly want that. Thats why its bad for both sides.
(also i forgot to add: Tunneling and camping is a bigger issiue for most survivors i thought, now completely unrelated how i personally think about tunneling but making slugging harder will just push people towards more camping and tunneling, even more as it is rn.)
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Combined a few responses
1: Being on the hook is unfun
The hooks state is defined, 3 and you are done, compared to a 4 minute bleedout. One minute on the first stage of the hook is an issue, which is a big reason face camping should also be addressed. The second stage throws up a mini-game, simplistic yes, but something that makes that time seem more tolerable.
2: Not being happy with the mori changes
Fair enough. I'm interested to see how it plays out, but certain elements of it seem weird.
3: There are some other things they should be addressing
Yeah, I can see that. Slugging is probably not the first thing I'd address if it was my call, but doesn't really impact whether this patch improves the game or not.
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One other things I'll add: the slugging abuse focuses on the 4 minute bleedout. Yeah, that's a big problem, but not the only one. The problem I encounter more is when the killer tunnels out one players and then just keeps putting everyone else down. So the 1 down, 1 chase, 1 heal becomes a permanent loop.
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These changes are NOT going to prevent slugging:
In addition, it essentially renders 'the dying state' a dead mechanic. Any and all interactions with survivors in the dying state are now pointless. An entire facet of the game loop has been deleted.
No more clutch saves at endgame when all survivors are downed but you have DS/UB/SG/BO/Adrenaline/Deliverance.
No more giving the hatch to survivors you've downed.
No more slugging a freshly unhook survivor instead of tunnelling them, if you down a survivor shortly after they've been unhooked you have no choice but to hook them again.
SWF bully squads are now even more untouchable, so expect more teabagging in your face as they know they're invincible.
And to a lesser extent but still sad to lose; no more slug races, no more cinematic mori's that you can position yourself, no more dicking around with friends having fun, just serious gameplay.
So many fun gameplay options will disappear because of this.
Imagine having Adrenaline and Sole Survivor when the killer slams the hatch closed? Never going to happen now.
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I think the idea of the changes are great and much needed for this game. I think they address many of the unpleasant aspects of playing the game, especially as a solo survivor. The numbers will need tweaking, though. Like maybe bump 45 seconds to 60-90 and reduce Unbreakable's 100% faster recovery to 50%. We'll see through testing what's fair.
I don't think the finishing mori should be optional because that defeats the purpose. People saying "I can't choose to give survivor the hatch anymore!" are kidding themselves. You can simply not down them lol.
So many people acting like the game is dead for killers shows how prevelant slugging is (the least fun aspect of playing survivor) and how badly this needed to be changed.
Just a few weeks ago I had a game against Blight where a survivor DC'd on first down. We managed to get like 3 gens done before the Blight sacrificed one of us and left the remaining 2 on the ground for the entire bleed out for absolutely no ######### reason other than to be a dick. We were dead to rights. No more potential for self unhooks or DS or anything. And he had the game handed to him on a silver platter by that early DC and STILL chose to be a toxic #########. People like him are the reason this change is necessary and I'm glad Bhvr is finally ######### doing something about it.
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In short: Survivor wanted free escapes, they get a first free escape.
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I can't remember last time I might use Unbreakable. Maybe one game out of twenty I can say "Oh, I wish I/he/she have unbreakable". And it's when killer don't know for sure are someone able to stand up or not, if my friend take UB - it's somehow useful in very rare situations. And when killer know for sure you can pick yourself up those situations will become more rarer. All situations that are affected in my cases - slugging for 4k, and basekit unbreakable don't really change anything here in terms of survival. It's just a motivation to hook me already and go find hatch.
Maybe it will be abused but that's why PTB exists. I'm not upset at all, it's much more interesting than meta shake up with no real shake up. New game mechanic will really force some people to change builds - both killers and survivors. Also there's no heal techs in some cases, because if you heal too much, you both are downed. Previously you could crawl out in time of animation of hit cooldown but not then. Sometimes my teammate distract killer from me to let me crawl out, sometimes he was downed and hooked and I was out, but with new system - no, both of us are dead. And I can imagine lots of new scenarious. Exciting!
Looking forward to see PTB.
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the changes are great :)
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
No more clutch saves at endgame when all survivors are downed but you have DS/UB/SG/BO/Adrenaline/Deliverance.Imagine having Adrenaline and Sole Survivor when the killer slams the hatch closed? Never going to happen now.The situation you are discussing involves:
1: A survivor who has unlocked those perks and brought them to the game
2: Being the last survivor alive
3: Having the events happen as described (compared to say the survivor finding the hatch first or the killer finding the survivor before the hatch)
Doesn't seem like that big a loss.
No more giving the hatch to survivors you've downed.Good. Mercy is not something that should be a part of the gameplay.
No more slugging a freshly unhook survivor instead of tunnelling them, if you down a survivor shortly after they've been unhooked you have no choice but to hook them again.See above on mercy. Also, good. If you've outmatched the survivors that much they should be eliminated from the game quickly and MMR can be more accurate.
These changes are NOT going to prevent sluggingPossible. If so, the update will be a failure.
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