If you don't want people to slug for moris then why change moris when literally no one asked
Sorry for the wall of text, it just rubbed me the wrong way that Behaviour tried spinning the Mori rework as something so exciting and new to the game when absolutely nobody asked for that change. Moris in their current form don't affect player fun and did not gave the killer an advantage in the current meta. If anything, Mori'ing someone instead of hooking would prevent a killer from getting value from certain perks. In other words, these are changes that nobody asked for or needed.
I find it a terrible waste of time and worrysome that the devs have spent over 3 months working on this and having to come up with band aids to fix all kinds of problems basekit unbreakable would bring into the game. And for what? Just because someone at bhvr probably decided on a whim that they wanted the last survivor to die by Mori. I'm sorry but how tone-deaf can you be when you have an entire community who actually plays your game telling you there are other, much more urgent issues that need fixes in DbD? How about using those resources to finally optimize the game for console? Solo Q QoL improvements anyone? Exposed nurse? Humongous maps? The list goes on and on, but somehow, we need to rework...moris. Okay...
Yeah people will adapt, others will say it's an overreaction, but I just really don't get why the devs sometimes come up with these weird changes out of nowhere like the Hillbilly rework, or more recently Boil Over. Remember that? And here's the main issue, whether this ends up being problematic or not is pure speculation at this point, but for a game that pushes updates every 3 months I feel like their resources could be spent coming up with changes that benefit players rather than forcing us to play the way they think the game should be played.
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The fact is they just wanted to remove slugging and used moris as excuse.
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1: I don't know why they are getting rid of the current Mori system, seems like that could still stay with the new addition.
2: I think it adds on a good, quicker finish to the game. Lugging the survivors to the hooks when they are all down is a pointless excursion.
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Sure it ends the game quicker I'm all about that, but it feels extremely forced when the solution makes a bunch of other perks obsolete. Does that mean all the other stuff they said about changing the meta, perk usage, etc was just bs? It's contradictory at best.
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BHVR really should have sent a Twitter message saying "We have an early preview of an exciting new feature (FOR SURVIVORS) to share". Did they honestly think killers would consider this an exciting new feature? This was such a bad false advertising.
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BHVR: remove mori from Devour Hope and Rancor to see more mori
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This. Slugging is the problem, not moris!
I don't understand the thought that Mori = toxic killer. I personally find the game more fun when a killer is mori-ing survivors instead of using the hooks.
I think a far more reasonable fix for slugging is built-in Unbreakable, where if all 4 people are downed, whoever recovers first can get back up.
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its because mori are connected to slugging. mori skip hook-states just like slugging entire team skips hook-states.
the thing with slugging is that slugging 4 survivors is difficult because, its suppose to be difficult since the reward is unlimited. for that reason, slugging all 4 survivors is impractical. survivor's base-kit for preventing 4 man slugging is really strong. 30 seconds to recover at 95% and 4 minute timer means that you can be slugged 6-7 times before your remotely close to dying to bleed out. the 45 second changes it from 6-7 times to 4-5 times but 4-5 times among 4 survivors is still a lot of downs. The survivor has to mess up a lot for killer player to be remotely successful at slugging. Not much reason to use anti-slugging perks when the base-kit is already that good.
In order to make slugging easier as killer, you need eliminate at least 1 survivor to create a 3vs1. that's what twin's strategy is based off. its based off eliminating one survivor and then slugging the rest because its impractical for twins to: down someone 35 meter away, walk to them, hook them and do this x12 times per match. you could have 10 second chases with the killer but if it takes 40 seconds to hook a survivor, its like having 50 second chases. It would take forever for twins to acquire 4k if the twins had to hook everyone 3 times each.
for that reason, if you make a killer based off slugging, you need have some sort of gradual reward to the system or else the killer will be like 0k or 4k with nothing in between. that is also why slugging with other killers in general is not popular. Its just too high risk with improbable reward.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
And how is it exciting for survivors lol, noone asked for it.
If you re talking about UB that will be nerfed anyway during PTB so dunno what you on about
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But the Moris offering basically tells you to slug for a 4K.
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Where does it tell that?
You have to make 1k, 2k or 4k, and the last survivor needs to be killed by the mori animation. You don't have to kill all four through the finishing mori.
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This. We didn't ask for this, and if anybody did, they were quickly told no, because the idea of getting yourself up without a perk is just stupid.
Nobody seriously asked for this, and I honestly hope that the massive amount of feedback during the PTB causes them to rethink a system neither side asked for. There was nothing wrong with moris.
I'm not excited about this change, I'm concerned it's just going to promote more unbearable gameplay. I suspect a lot of other solos are worried about it too.
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'Slugging' isn't a problem, it's a core mechanic of the game.
Slugging is what gives survivors the opportunity to rescue their team mates before they get hooked, it's what allows the use of perks such as Unbreakable, Soul Guard, No Mither, Flip Flop, Tenacity, Boon: Exponential, Boil Over, Power Struggle, plus recovery perks like We'll Make It or Botany Knowledge to get your team mates up quicker.
Slugging is a way for the killer to apply pressure that isn't as drastic or final as hooking, it gets survivors off gens and forces them to interact with their team mates.
It's an entire mechanic, just like hooks, or pallets, or the injured state, etc. It's a major facet of the game. It is the sole reason we have 'the dying state'.
The problem is specifically "slugging everyone at 5 gens" or "slugging for the 4K". Slugging is only a problem when it's done specifically to drag the game out or make survivors wait 4 minutes on purpose. Just as 'camping' is only a problem when it's done to force through a hook state before end game and is entirely acceptable during EGC or when other survivors force it on the killer by looping the hook or something.
One specific, niche method of abusing slugging in the problem, and there is a fix for that which doesn't completely delete an entire core mechanic of the game:
Edit: which I now realise is what you've suggested as well. Basically the opposite of the proposed changes. With Unbreakable only being available when all survivors are downed, or none are standing'.
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Except survivors always remain in the game, at the exit gate, until their team mates are downed. So it's going to be virtually impossible to get a 1K, 2K or 3K finisher mori. It'll only happen with a 4K.
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It's not about slugging for Moris. It's about slugging constantly at 5/4 gens, or slugging the third player so you can run off and find the 4th.
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And this form of basekit Unbreakable to fix that issue is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
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everyone complaining about the new moris...
its been MONTHS since ive been mori'd. Literally no one uses them, its basically useless and serves no purpose.
The new mori WILL serve a purpose and will help end matches faster instead of killers sitting and watching someone bleed out for 4 minutes because hooks are down or someone is feeling petty.
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Mori's need a new system that makes then seen more often, without a doubt. But this system is nuts. It removes Mori opportunities, and you will only see Mori's what killers play sweaty and slug for the 4K.
This would be a far better solution:
It has the same net result when it comes to seeing Mori's, without the need to delete Mori's from perks, or delete the dying state.
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They neutered a lot of clutch plays/winnable situations on the survivor side by implementing this mechanic (IE Deliverance plays that win games / soul guard or ub plays while the killer is walking to hook the last guy / etc)....now everyone just dies.
No one's really talking about it/picking up on it, atm, but tomorrow will be very interesting once the players capable of making such dynamic plays get their hands on the PTB.
I honestly went from thinking this update was survivor sided to being overwhelmingly killer sided - not even joking.
Post edited by Raccoon on4 -
Current emblem system already telling you to do such, I don't get it.
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I guess they are reworking the Moris to make it able to actually see the animations. Because currently, you almost never see a Mori-Animation, because current Moris are not that strong (which is completely justified, before they were just way too strong). I mean, personally, I dont care about the animation, but BHVR seems to be quite fond of them, so they wanted to implement a system to see the animations more frequently.
Before you saw them very frequently, but Moris were busted, so it is not like they were really enjoyable to see on the Survivor Side when you are dead after your first hook. And after they required two Hooks, they were used far less.
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Now you will basically only see a Mori when the killer gets a 4K, as any other scenario will likely result in survivors waiting at exit gates until they're either all out or the remaining survivor is hooked. On top of that, you won't see Mori's from Devour Hope, Rancor, or mid-game via an Ebony Mori offering.
And in order to secure that Mori, the killer will still need to slug for the 4K to prevent the final survivor getting the hatch.
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Would be more often than now. As I said, I dont care about the animations, from my side, they can remove them entirely. I look at them one time when a new Killer comes out, think "Yeah, looks nice" and thats it.
And that the Killer "needs" to slug for the 4K is the same as now. not really a point.
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Impossible to get 1k, 2k or 3k mori?
1k - Beat the last survivor in the hatch race or interrupt them at the gate, BAM finisher mori.
2k - Find the last two, slug one and down the other fast, BAM finisher mori. Or hook one and find & down the last one, BAM finisher mori as well.
3k - Have one already dead, two hooked, find and down the last, BAM finish mori.
Finisher mori is not restricted to end game, you know?
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"1k - Beat the last survivor in the hatch race ..."
...that's a 4K, and it relies on the gamble of beating them to the hatch. If you want the Mori, you need to slug.
"2k - Find the last two, slug one and down the other fast, BAM finisher mori. Or hook one and find & down the last one, BAM finisher mori as well."
That's a 4K... and exactly what I'm talking about.
"3k - Have one already dead, two hooked, find and down the last, BAM finish mori."
Also a 4K, and once again comes at the risk of the hooked survivors killing themselves to get the hatch for the last survivor.
You've just given several examples of the exact scenario I'm talking about. That doesn't mean it's going to be any easier or common, all of them require doing exactly what survivors hate, tunnelling and slugging.
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@Seraphor If you think about it, slugging for 4K is pretty much a symptom of the kind of problematic design of hatch itself too. It incentivizes the last two to hide and do nothing, and the killer’s only option to 4K without risk of hatch is to slug one and look for the other. Comparatively, survivors trying to get a 4E attempt are constantly interacting with the killer, healing and taking trades and inching hooks closer to a gate, etc. The design of the hatch itself incentivizes hiding and doing nothing from survivors and slugging from the killer.
And realistically, if everybody goes down at 5 gens, the game is likely over anyways unless someone has an Unbreakable or whatever. It’d be like if everyone got hooked at 5 gens realistically. So it’s not like the auto-kill mechanic actually changes much in that regard either.
The only real issue I see is killer bleeding all living survivors to death on purpose (or unintentionally, silent slug bug and people crawling off into god knows where), honestly. And something like that could be solved by something in a non-sledgehammer manner like you said.
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I don't agree.
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@Seraphor Eg, a way to deal with killer bleeding people to death intentionally or unintentionally could be a 1 minute timer that starts when the last survivor goes down. As long as all survivors in the trial are hooked or downed, the timer ticks.
If the timer runs out, everyone is sacrificed Endgame Collapse-style. I feel like 1 minute would give sufficient time for people to get back up if they have a way to do so, or try Deliverance/praying for 4%/etc.
If no one has gotten up after 1 minute of everyone being downed or hooked, it’s pretty safe to assume the game is over anyways and that the killer either can’t find the others or is intentionally bleeding them out anyways.
And this would also help solve situations where a killer is forced to bleed a survivor purely because no hooks are close enough.
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If you want to do a 4 K you'll probably have to slug. Risking a Hatch escape would mean the offering you've made as a killer is pointless.
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Yep.
Another similar option could be that the more survivors are downed, the faster the bleedout timer ticks. When all four are downed it's equivalent to 1 minutes instead of 4 minutes.
Combine this with something like everyone gets a free Unbreakable when their bleedout timer reaches 25% or something. That's 1 free pick up per game.
All more appealing than forced, unavoidable Mori cutscenes prematurely ending the game.
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One of the other things I find sucky about the conceptual change is it makes fun player gimmicks like slug races/carrying someone to the hatch/photobombing Moris/etc impossible.
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It's funny because the devs have been on a campaign to get rid of moris ever since they removed It's ability to affect the game by adding the third hook state to trigger. It's been just a cinematic for a while now with no real bearing on the game unless it was tied to the perks or addons. Those will be the next to go since perks are getting nerfed too. So they're giving killers a non existent bone by making Cypress Mori basekit while survs get...infinite resurrection at this point. Slugging was a tool to apply pressure and since survs can't handle it, killers suffer again.
This is what will kill that side of the game or promote even more tunneling and camping to ensure a kill/apply pressure since winning chases apparently won't cut it in the devs eyes.
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I personally feel like if they are going to change the mori system. It should be somewhere near end game but the whole reason for this is to end the boring sort of slugging. I fear this is a situation done unto by the community itself and this is a case of "this is why we can't have nice things". At this point, I can't really care about having unbreakable basekit on the killer side anymore since we're already doing ourselves dirty enough as is with this being the playstyles we have to use and deal with on both ends. We'll see how this ends up being tomorrow. Hopefully it ends up actually being good for the game because 45 seconds is a pretty lengthy amount of time STILL to be on the floor. It might just be that sweet spot to not make things too boring for survivors but also be long enough to buy time for those who slug strategically.
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They announced they were going to rework Moris a year ago. While I agree there are more pressing issues with the game it's still a good QoL that they are going to remove slugging survivors for 4 minutes. I'd actually say QoL changes produce a more positive impact on the game than pure balance changes. I'd rather play a fun but unbalanced game than a balanced but unfun one.
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I wouldn't say killer or survivor sided yet. Just overwhelmingly dull. They keep making changes that are essentially putting guard rails on matches, to the point they will all play out in very similar ways.
For a game with ONE game mode...
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I really think this PTB is going to be a crazy surprise for a lot of people when they see the reality of how things are going to progress.
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One thing we need to keep in mind
It's their game
Many people seem to be under the impression that cause they bought the game the devs owe them.
They don't. All you did was buy permission to use the game. Nothing more, nothing less.
If they want to put a mori finisher in their game then they can do just that and it doesn't actually matter who of us asked.
They listen to feedback cause they want their game to be good but in the end it's their vision that counts.
You can talk about the balance implications, how you feel about it, what things might have been more urgent and any other problems that might or might not be there
But to think they need to ask permission to change something in their game is just arrogant
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The Mori change sounds worse every single time I hear about it. There's no real reason; the idea of it being somehow used negatively is sonething I cannot recall anyone having an issue; and the original, genuine issue of it being used to kill someone after just one hook was dealt with and changed to the fair and existing method.
By altering it, it now potentially will bring in a score of new problems; ruin 2 unique perks; solve absolutely nothing and could even make them boring. It's a really bizarre change that was never needed, asked for or even serves any purpose.
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Moris weren't that common anyway but once in a while I would see complaints about them, which have been happening since forever but the complaints weren't that common like I said. Slugging, I've seen about 4x more complaints about, how it wasn't fun or it was a brainless strategy. As a survivor main, I have to say it never happened that much to me in my games, moris or slugging, so I never had a problem with either of them. So idk how this patch will affect me once it comes out tbh.
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Tunnel the first survivor relentlessly to death (at most 3 hooks). Camp or proxy camp the second person (4th hook). Down the third on their way to the save. If the fourth also shows up (cough soloq cough) down them too. The game is over at 4 hooks with a finisher mori.
This is the new meta way to play killer.
Also, the finisher mori includes "escaped" survivors. So even in a bad game, that trio of survivors healing at the exit gate can still die. Two walk out the door and you hit the injured guy pointing at the exit gate? He doesn't get to crawl or even fall out the exit, he gets mori'd and dies.
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So you explicitly mean mori finishers in end game? Then it depends on the implementation, which we don't know yet. If its implemented to trigger as soon as all the remaining players are hooked / downed, then it would also trigger when you slug someone and chase the last out.
It it triggers explicitly when the last standing is downed, then that won't work, sure. We have to see. And even if it's the latter, it still could be changed to the former.
All I'm saying is, it's way to soon to claim that finisher moris will only be possible with 4Ks, we don't know yet. And even if thats the case, many games result into a 4k. So whats even the deal with it? If it's about that your new mori offering might be wasted, yeah that might happen, but thats and issue with the (lackluster) mori offerings, not with the concept of the finisher mori.
Or is it bc of the claim that we will see more moris? That absolutely will be the case! How often do you face a mori offering nowadays? Maybe one every ten games (atleast in my MMR). With the mori rework, there's the possibilty for a mori animation with every game. And it's nearly guaranteed for all the 4k games. If I had to guess, I would say we will see a mori at least every two games, possible even more often.
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Yes, the new mori offerings are a gamble (and a bad one, I'd say). I would like them to do something different myself. But thats not set in stone, the PTB is coming for the community to test this out as well.
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Yep... We ll see how it goes ! A little bit of chaos is good sometimes
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