Still forced to play lame in 2022
You'd think by now that BHVR would understand that most killers don't want to tunnel and camp, they know survivors hate it, it feels wrong for them to do it, yet these strategies still remain extremely strong.
If you nerf tunneling and camping while buffing 12 hooking and gen patrolling, then killers will be forced to adapt or fall behind. This change would be very simple to do, I have limited experience in coding but changing values according to variables is something amateurs can do in half an hour at most. So with this in mind I assume that most of the devs at behavior crutch on camping and tunneling, and thus think it is essential and refuse to change it.
It's really unfortunate that the game is made in this way, I understand that developers should never be good at their own game, but the game itself is based around bringing the strongest things you possibly can and playing without mercy, I don't know about you guys but that sounds like a dreadful game, and not at all what a party game should play like.
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The Devs have said they can't just Nerf Camping and Tunneling as they are valid strats. I one agree there are situations where Camping and Tunneling should be used like at End Game or to get that one player out of the game asap to get rid of CoH or to make it a 3 v 1.
If they hard Nerf both then those situations will be that much harder.
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The other half was that they should be encouraging 12 hook games and patrolling gens instead, which is very important to include. BHVR's approach to the situation has been continuously trying the stick while not even offering the carrot, they need to have the possibilities for more healthy play being viable and encouraged before they can start imposing punishment for the less savory strategies.
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Take a break🙂
The DEVs are never going to do anything about camping or hard tunneling.
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Yep. Sometimes I can go for random chases, no strategy, because the survivors are chill or because I have a full meta build. Other times, I have nothing going for me in a match, from start to finish. Injuring, downing, and hooking people doesn't do anything, especially with the dreaded CoH in play. It's kills that make a difference, which is why you see camping and tunneling a lot. And this is from killers who know very well how to chase, because you are kidding yourself if you think chase skill alone can beat good survivors.
I actually did say to a friend the other night, "I feel like I have to lame it out. Playing like this is so boring." I was playing with an out-of-character CoB/Overcharge/Eruption. There was very little commiting to chases, just injuring and kicking gens. You get so caught up in the strategy, that you're forced to use, that you don't even feel like a killer anymore. You feel like a micromanager. And even then, certain teams will just blow you away no matter how many things you're juggling. Too much efficiency and second chances on their part.
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It's so easy to de incentivize camping. Give a large reward to gen repair speed while the killer is the only player near the hook. This encourages survivors to do what they should be doing, it punishes killers for camping before end game, and it doesn't change the endgame at all since all the generators are done! So simple.
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I agree, if you really want the game to be about hooks and not kills it needed to be set up that way from the beginning. The official boardgame works that way, for instance, there is no midgame player elimination and the goal for the killer is to collect 8 hook total stages. Hypothetically the video game could have used a similar system, where survivors never die during the match itself but instead the killer collects sacrifice tokens by hooking them and every 60 seconds that someone spends unrescued on a hook and then wins when they collect, say, 10-12 tokens. In that system there is practically no incentive to stand around defending a hook or to focus on hooking just one survivor, it would obviously steer you to down and hook as often as possible to win.
Unfortunately though like it or not midgame player elimination is part of DbD the way it was designed so we’re stuck with the issues that entails. 🤷♂️
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What are you guys complaining about, the devs gave us .2 second faster weapon cooldown and pallet breaking and took away our BBQ stacks to encourage us not to camp
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Reassurance, base kit buffed BT and otr kinda shows that they are willing to do something about camping and tunneling
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I really hate the idea of forcing killers to play a certain way. Part of what makes this game fun to play is that each match requires a different strategy. Let’s also not forget how unbalanced this game is with coordinated SWF at high MMR. Sometimes camping and tunneling are necessary to win based on what the survivors are doing, how the map is set up, and how skilled they are. There are a lot of different variables that go into how easy/difficult a given match will be for the killer, so killers need as much flexibility as possible in their strategy to adjust.
Most of the complaining about camping and tunneling is coming from survivor mains who have never played killer or rarely play killer.
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And another "stick" idea instead of "carrot" after which a "stick" can immediately follow.
Aka make defending hooks absolutely impossible but don't improve the 12 hook gameplay. And no, those 10% changes weren't "enough" to make 12 hook really the go-to viable option, not even close.
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Paying for a perk to help fight against camping isn't fixing the problem and it's just wrong.
base kit BT and OTR help against tunneling off the hook not camping.
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I think 12 hooking should never be viable as it would mean basically all other methods are basically oppressive.
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Who's forcing you? Should we call 911?
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you're not forced to do anything.
you choose to camp and tunnel because you believe its the only way to win, which it isnt, it just makes it easier because the quicker you erase 1 player it becomes so much harder to get things done as survivor.
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???
Viable isn't equal to exclusive?
Viable just means feasible aka doable without having to sweat profusely.
Why would anyone try to go for 12 hooks if it isn't feasible to do without even bigger stress than the game already gives?
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Note how this sentence changes completely if you instead say "...it becomes so much easier to keep up with gen speed and pressure." and neither statement would be mutually exclusive. Both are correct, and they're two sides of the same issue.
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That's why they want to nerf those other methods ???
If 12 hook isn't viable, and other methods get nerfed, what's left?
Its one or the other. I'd rather have 12 hook games idk about you.
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I dont think you understand. No matter what they do, 12 hooking will still be by far the hardest method. That means no matter what they do, if 12 hooking is viable, basically everything else is so incredibly easy that there is basically no point in playing the game.
For example if its viable to hook survivors 1 by 1 and still win, if i focus on hooking only 2, i would be dominating the game because thats about 2-3 times more efficient than hooking people 1 by 1 and im not camping or tunneling any one so im not getting hit by any possible nerf to tunneling or camping.
12 hooking should never be viable unless you are just smurfing.
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What if they just made 12 hooking actually rewarding? The emblemn system was far from perfect, but people were at least able to build their own win condition using emblems as a direct metric, and perks like BBQ having the bonus require at least 1 hook per survivor did a lot of encouraging that mentality. Part of the issue is that killers are supposed to be playing purely to kill as many as possible, and have almost no incentive to do otherwise. BP itself isn't the most universal motivator, but it was certainly better than zero motivation at all.
playstyles in general need to be given more room to breathe, and need to be more appealing than the LCD strategies. I do definitely understand your assumption that making 12 hooks viable would likely make the LCD strategies even stronger, but why not redesign the entire objective to address both of those issues simultaneously?
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Yeah redesigning the entire objective would probably solve these issues. I think honestly what Phead has going should be whats standard with the added caveat that BT, OTR etc all work after getting uncaged and survivors shouldnt be able to be sacrificed but instead game basically end if killer gets 8-9 hooks? Something like that.
But like thats a totally different game, thats not DBD at that point, they would never go for changes that drastic.
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That's the best suggestion and more reasonable suggestion instead of a down right major punish all camping
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But there are incentives at the moment. The entire meta and most perks have been reworked to where you only get value by spreading pressure and patrolling. It's just camping and tunneling is so easy for a free kill you don't really have to play the game that way. People aren't doing it because they have no other option, they're doing it because its easy and gives free kills. The only times killers do this is when they're trying to grief someone or if they're legitimately inexperience and don't know how to play the game. Sometimes its both.
Currently the only perk that helps with camping is Insidious. Which is, y'know, Insidious. If you expect the killer has it just listen out for their breathing or audio cues.
Still the problem is killers feel like if they get kills, no matter the circumstances, they won in some way. You can camp someone and likely still have enough time to down someone else and camp them to death too. I do agree that we need to punish the tunneling and camping, but we also need to recognize why people are doing this. Which is largely because its a cheap way to feel like you've won. Whether it be over someone else or the entire team. I think this is due to the fear of losing and being bm'd or something like that. No clear win condition means that people are making up their own so they don't feel terrible. And largely wins are associated with the amount of kills.
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Carrots didn't work. Killers just camped harder.
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save the best for last is also great for camping, and killers base kit gave them free stacks of it.
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yea but it also requires you to at least chase other survivors for some time to build it up to being useful for camping. the current cooldown still isnt short enough to completely deny an unhook.
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What carrots? .2 second faster weapon cooldown and pallet breaking? So generous lol
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I don't think you understand.
We make 12 hooking viable and punish camping and tunneling to the point those are worse.
We just can't make those worse without 12 hooking being viable because then the killer has no avenue to win.
There's def a way to make it work.
mock example: each time you hook a different survivor than the last you gain a 5% stackable haste. This resets upon hooking or downing the same survivor again before getting everyone to the same hook state. While camping, gen speeds are increased by 300%. If you hook the same survivor twice in a row you suffer a 10% stackable speed penalty.
ex 2: A shared hook pool to eliminate tunneling someone out even being a thing in conjunction with other changes could also work.
You should get the idea now, it just takes more work than just leaving camping and tunneling as is. Might require a redesign of parts of the core hook/death system, but it's possible and worth it.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
Buddy in the example i gave there was no camping or tunneling. You understand that there are more ways to play this game than camping tunneling or 12 hooking right?
Nvm im done. Think as shallowly as you want mate, you arent hurting any one.
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Example 2 IMO is the better of the two, especially if you adjust the sacrifice timer to compensate.
Ex 1, even with the haste bonus/penalty I doubt killers with the intent on camping would really do anything with it. The penalty does help to make sure the tunneled survivor tries to get away, but depending on the killer (Nurse, Billy, Huntress, any killer with high mobility/range basically) would still be able to somewhat continue their tunnel vision spree.
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Buddy in the example you gave me you were focusing 2 players out. My example still stands as it takes that into account.
Instead of being vague and saying "other ways to play" maybe bring them up? So far only focusing players out and camping have been discussed, so that's what I'm talking about.
It's fine if you're done because you can't comprehend the idea, you're not hurting anyone.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
They were just mock examples, not serious finalized ideas.
I also personally like the idea of a shared hook pool a lot more, it gets rid of tunneling being a go to to begin with. Playing the entire game as a 4v1 just sounds more appealing. The survivors either win together or lose together, also encouraging more teamwork and less selfish plays. At least in concept.
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You can go for a 3 gen,you can go for a knockout slug build, you can go for a full late game build.
Why this obsession with 12 hooking? Dont you get that no matter what it will always be the hardest thing you can go for in the game by far?
Edit: Also after reading your mock examples i kinda get that you literally dont understand game design. After hooking 2-3 guys the only thing the last survivor has to do is hide and do nothing and you'll have to either waste your time trying to locate that 1 guy or risk giving them 300% repair speed?
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
3 gens don't just win you the game, they are also the survivors fault mainly.
Slugging is attempting to be addressed with basekit UB. There's better ideas for sure, that's the point of discussing, but you don't even give anyone the chance and just yell "you don't understand".
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
I like to tunnel and camp.
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I remained befuddled that camping just continues and BHVR is kind of like 'oh well'. The solution seems incredibly simple: if the killer stays within X meter of a hook for Y seconds Z occurs. We can debate/play test how many meters/seconds/what occurs, but it really feels like something should.
I just had a game with a basement Bubba. Sat there for two minutes just staring at each other. Fun game.
Of course it could have been more fun, someone could have had Reassurance/Kindred and we could have had an even longer staring contest.
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I guess you don't understand how all those small benefits compound. Break pallets faster means closing time is quicker. hit recovery means closing time is faster. Shorter dash time when hit by survivors means...you guessed it faster closing time...and in case you as a killer kind of suck they gave faster time to get into bloodlust. All of those things together did have a big effect to shorten chases. AND pallet repair times got longer...which also helps camping.
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How does this help and reward the killer for not tunneling and camping specifically?
Those benefits are the same, camp and tunnel or not.
That's not a "carrot", that's not a reward or benefit you get for not tunneling/camping, that's just general killer buffs.
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Just remove unhooking grabs
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The best way to nerf camping and tunneling,maybe slugging,is to buff and incetivise 12 hooking
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Sadly, this part of your statement isn't accurate: "The entire meta and most perks have been reworked to where you only get value by spreading pressure and patrolling. " The Devs have worked for the complete opposite result, I'm afraid.
CoH has completely destroyed the Hit & Run strategy - you completely waste your time if you just injure a survivor as they'll be back to full health after an extremely short time in the Boon radius. In particular this is awful for the territorial killers like Trapper & Hag - they have the choice of slowly trudging halfway across the map to kick the Boon Totem then trudge back to their defended/trapped area - and the Boon will be back up before they're halfway back to their zone. Complete game-loss right there. And before the chorus of "But CoH has been nerfed!" let's be honest - the nerfs only reduced the slowest healing time by 2 seconds. Hardly a nerf.
The devs took away the incentive to spread out hooks from BBQ, which was one of the most commonly used perks. I'm honestly baffled as to that choice as it removes the incentive to not tunnel in the early game. Frankly, I expected them to extend things like a further incentive if you got all survivors hooked twice which would have incentivised killers to not tunnel AND to not camp. A win-win you'd think but they did the opposite!
Now with basekit UB coming in there is no longer the pressure for survivors to pick up a slugged team-mate - they'll get back up on their own - yet another reduction in the killer's ability to spread pressure around.
I'm not going to write a novel but just these few examples should serve to show that the Devs are actively choosing to make it harder to spread pressure around, and by stating that the only thing that will raise a killer's MMR is the number of survivors they kill means that tunnelling in particular becomes an even more effective strategy.
I would suggest that you might reconsider your blanket statement about anyone who ever camps or tunnels, it comes across as just biased and ignoring some of the realities that killers face.
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I don't think we need to give carrots or sticks, we need to fix the game system. Currently, the killer camping and tunneling off the hook are way too effective. On top of that, they are the least engaging strategy that leads to snooze fest matches whether the survivors escape or not.
It needs to die as a strategy during the early parts of the game.
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killers already get denied a lot of grabs by servers.
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CoH is stupid, but it's at least managable now. If you have such an issue with it maybe you should run Shattered Hope? Also BBQ being changed literally makes no difference because the bp costs and gains are way better now with incentives.
What I mean is by the NEW meta. Overcharge, Call of Brine, Eruption, Pain res. All four of those are the most popular regression perks at the moment. And you get value from none of them by camping. You have to chase and get downs on different people for them to be useful in any sense. So, yes, the game does encourage you to not camp. Because there's no more perks that help with camping and tunneling. The survivors run faster and get endurance for 10 seconds, meaning it's hard to kill them right off the hook. Another incentive to not camp and tunnel.
You also seem to not understand that most survivors will be picking themselves up in 45 seconds. That is a huge amount of time to be down and out. And for the survivors running slug builds, just hook them. Now their perks are useless. You don't want to slug normally unless you're going to get another quick down. If you take 45 seconds to kill someone else then you probably would've had that slug picked up by now in the current game state anyways. Unbreakable is kind of dumb, but yet again, if you suspect they have it just pick them up. Obviously we could go over a million different scenarios where this might be a problem. Many people bring up the point of getting swarmed by the team near a pallet, but that's free health states and them doing nothing. If someone seems a little too eager to go down, they probably have unbreakable. That's the easy way to tell. Otherwise just don't leave survivors downed for a long time if you aren't getting anything out of it.
They aren't making active efforts to make it harder to spread pressure. CoH has been nerfed like 4 times now. Is it perfect? No. I don't think the perk should allow you to heal yourself at all but that's not my decision to make. They also removed the 4 second medkit heal thing you used to be able to do with green medkits. So tell me more about how they've "actively" worked to make hit and run harder. I have no problem spreading pressure unless I'm already losing. If you see someone with a medkit just don't drop chase on them. Otherwise you're good since they're going to take 20 something seconds to heal with CoH. If self heals are a big problem for you, run Franklins and watch them say bye bye to their medkits.
So, with the entire game being completely changed to keep killers more mobile and active, what are the purposes of camping and tunneling? Easy kills. It's that simple. The game gets hard, they don't want to get better, so they take the easiest route. Along with being able to grief the survivor they're raging at. Because as I said, to them a win is a win no matter what the conditions are. I killed you? I win. Doesn't matter if you died on your first hook state after looping me for an hour. I still beat you. That's the mindset.
People who camp and tunnel early into the match are already scared they're going to lose. And that fear only makes them more anxious because now the survivors are mad at them and they haven't developed the skill to actually handle the entire team. With the ego on a lot of the people who play this game, having that bruised is the worst defeat of all for them. And I feel like a lot of that plays into the tunneling mindset. They've been tbagged by some mid swf and now they're mad. They ruin others fun because they had to put up with trolls in a video game.
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Believe me, if I could just not camp and tunnel, and instead become extremely good at the game and win that way, I absolutely would.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "way too effective", Survivors are still stronger than 94% of the killer cast even when they camp and tunnel. If you mean it shouldn't be the best strategy because it's unfun then yeah I agree.
Carrot and stick is one approach to fix the system. It's not the only approach. The main thing is we need to replace camping and tunneling with another effective avenue for the killer to win that's not so unengaging.
The vast vast majority do not want camping and tunneling to stick around, killer or survivor. But you can't just rip them out and not replace them with something else.
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