Gen rushing = Camping/tunneling

There's no such thing as tunneling, just being smart.

I have no problem with camping or tunneling in the scenario you described. One question though: Do you use Corrupt? If not, then you should honestly consider doing it, because it gives you some time to set up and forces Survivors to move or do nothing.

Often this may be correct, but if I see multiple toolboxes, Prove on 2 people and even 1 or 2 Hyperfocus, then I ask if that wasn't planned.

I think the biggest problem is still map design. If I can get insane rng on Suffocation Pit with the complete middle interconnected (which happens frequently), I can just stand in a corner and wait for them to pop out the 5 gens. This should not happen. A basekit Corrupt would help, but it won't solve the problem.

I could completely imagine that they were too altruistic. Had that myself many times and even fell in the same trap as well. Survivors who rush gens and see that the killer has only one hook will get overconfident.

I'm not 100% sure, but I know what you mean and agree.

Both are things we do for the sake of winning.

Thats my experience too. If i play solo Survivor i get the worst players that play this game and when i play killer i face the gods of looping

Completely agree. If the goal of Survivors is to repair enough gens to open the gate and escape, why would they not try to do this as quickly as possible? A team loading up on tool boxes and add-ons provided by the game is merely playing the objective as designed. It would make no sense if they intentionally used perks and add-ons to slow down gen progression and get themselves killed. In fact, that would be game-throwing. We may as well add negative labels to Survivors who heal ("Med Packers"), Survivors who unhook others ("Game Savers"), and Killers who attempt to sacrifice Survivors on hooks ("Hook Killers"). The point is that "gen rushing" is a required action in the game for Survivors whereas camping/tunneling is not the goal for Killers (their purpose is to sacrifice all the Survivors to the Entity - not target a single Survivor). Now those Survivors who stay on a gen instead of going for a save are not what I would call "gen rushing." They could easily be hiding in a locker, cleansing a totem, walking past a hooked Survivor as well - that is selfish play in order to pad individual stats rather than "gen rushing."

Not saying I agree with it (I think the idea of ‘Gen rushing’ is silly). Just sharing what I’ve seen killers refer to as Gen rushing. Yes, there is a presumption that if a killer is camping the team will still try to trade hooks. If they let the teammate die and just work on gens they are ‘Gen rushing’ per killer mains here.

Which is what you're clearly going to do rather than try to go for the save and get insta grabbed. It's probably the 'you're not entitled to an escape' Crowd that expect it too.

Survivors HAVE to do gens.

Killers, no matter how necessary they feel it might be, do NOT HAVE to camp and tunnel.

That's literally it. Sorry you're getting "gen rushed" but what the hell else are Survivors supposed to? Just sit around and let the Killer get a couple hooks before they sit on a gen? Come on now.

I'm also getting extremely tired of killers using examples that are just super optimized SWFs. Like that is really happening every game, stuff that probably only happens 1 in 100 games.

I mean I don't, that's just kinda my view on it, ya know?

Because people come with you in lobby not for opportunity to see how their characters do nothing, while you having "fun", I can understand camping / tunneling at end of trial if there's no 1 kill, but camping / tunneling / slugging at the start or middle of the trial is #########

It is called: "I don't want to learn to play and improve my skill, so I'll do the easiest thing I can, because I have opportunity and it's no forbidden"

Therefore, for such smart people in the game, a basekit was made for the survivors, let them learn to play, not whine

I mean, you still got a 3k. What's the problem? You play Trapper. Of course the gens go fast early. Trapper is a late-game Killer. Maybe play a different Killer if you want to exert pressure early.

There are other plus mobility killers, but you are right many killers are unable to prevent early gen loss because poor mobility and poor map design.

But fortunately for those killers, there are slowdown perks. The worse your killer of choice is in early game, the more you should run. For some killers, running 2-3 slowdowns is borderline necessary. But I promise that if you stack Corrupt + some combo of CoB/Overcharge/Eruption/Jolt, you can defend gens with just about any killer, unless you are a potato.

Now if a team all bring Commodious toolboxes with BNPs, Spools, and Swivel Sockets (maybe with Prove Thyself, Hyperfocus, etc.) and just hammer gens, yeah, not much you're gonna be able to do about that. And that is a helpless feeling. But that also isn't all that common, really.

And generally speaking, I never got the grief about "gen rushing". I mean what else are survs supposed to do at the beginning of a match but jump on gens? Mill around aimlessly? Break bones? Teabag each other?

I think many killers need to internalize that losing 2 or even 3 gens in the first 3-4 minutes is to be expected. The slowdown starts when there are fewer gens to defend. The early game is about defending the right gens, not trying to keep them all up. I often go down 3 gens with only 2-3 hooks and go on to win. A lot of killers seem to flip their lids and panic when they lose a couple gens.

Ideally, the game would be balanced for both scenarios. This isn't impossible, it's just a lot more work than one-tuning-to-rule-them-all. Akin to a golf handicap system, game timings would need to be tuned to level the playing field based on the size of the premade (e.g. generators take longer to repair in a 4-SWF match than in a 4-solos match).

Win/loss/etc** statistics would have to be tracked separately for teams with different ratios of premade and solo players. Measures would also need to be taken to ensure that solo survivors are truly solo, including hiding their names from each other until the end of the match, and actively preventing people from being able to snipe their way into a match with people they know. Otherwise the system could obviously be gamed hard.

**IMO, the game shouldn't actually be balanced based on kill/survive rates, it should be balanced primarily on how much fun the participants had. Why? For precisely the reason that started this thread... there are strong winning strategies for both sides that make things thoroughly unenjoyable for the other. That little "Did you have fun?" thing on the game end screen shouldn't be optional, because no one clicks it. You should have to vote to see the final score, and that measure of participant fun should be more than just a guideline for the devs, it should be a key balance metric. But that's just my $0.02.

In a nutshell, 50/50 win rates don't imply that fun was had by all; in the worst case you could have a 50/50 mix of hook camping and gen rushing games where every match was seriously unfun for one side or the other.

It's not fun. No killer has ever said, "Camping and tunneling is so fun!" But fun for me is winning. When I lose all the time, due to factors I can't control, it sucks. I get that as killer, in solo, and even in SWF. It's not about not wanting to improve your chase game. Most of us who have turned to camping and tunneling, we know how to chase. But you're kidding me if you think you can beat good survivors just off of doing well in chase. Gens don't care about how good you're chasing. Neither do hook states. You get frighteningly little for injuring, downing, and hooking survivors. They can shrug that off, because they're still alive, have a chance to rush gens still, and have a chance to escape still. Them being dead is the best and only definitive slowdown you're gonna get as killer, so you've gotta do what you've gotta do to get to that position ASAP.

Almost every attempt the devs have made to discourage camping and tunneling has failed. Oh, survivors get free BT off the hook? Better make sure they never get off. Oh, survivors can have 80 seconds of BT with this perk? Better to hit them right away. Oh, the survivors can pick themselves up off the ground for free? Better make sure I hook them straight away after I down them. They're trying to punish the undesirable playstyles, that they themselves have admitted are legitimate strats, while also making killers so weak that they're forced to play like that, and around and around we go. It's like a sick joke.

Everything seems to be written here.

It's the same level of ridiculous as 3 gens popping after the first chase.

One just get villainized a lot more.

Except 3 gens popping after the first chase is nothing but the Survivors playing the objective as the game was designed. Anything otherwise is game-throwing.

I think if you are able to get all 4 kills out of it then tunneling is efficient. But from what I've seen, Killers who tunnel usually only get 1 or 2 kills from that tactic, making it inefficient. Then again, it seems like those tunneling start doing so towards the end game so I'm not sure how effective tunneling would be from the start.

Well, the reason why so many do tunnel and camp and why its recommended so much is because it gets them better results.

I had a friend who would camp and tunnel every game because when they didn't they did way worse. So, like you said they normally only got 1-2 kills because they weren't that great at the game. But when they didn't they got 0 kills.

Now take a player who can get 1-2 kills without tunneling. Now when they do tunnel, they'll get 3-4.

I don't normally tunnel and camp because I just don't find camping fun and I have more fun going after everyone than focusing someone out. But the few times I do tunnel, either accidentally or otherwise, that's usually a 4K or 3K + Hatch. Reducing the survivor team from a 1v4 to a 1v3 is just too big of an upside to not be doing it ASAP if you're win focused.

Just because tunneling is the most effective strat, doesn't mean its a guarantee. You can still do poorly while tunneling, it's just your best shot. Survivors focus gens all the time, they still lose games. It's just their best shot at winning.

If you're already fine not doing those things I think you'll survive lol.

I've been playing this game for over 4 years now and haven't succumb to the hardcore call. I know I'm handicapping myself, but that's my decision and I'm ok with it. I have more fun playing sub-optimally, others don't or don't choose to.

There's nothing wrong with playing in the most efficient manner. I don't blame players on either side for playing that way. That's their decision and an understandable one. They can't change the game design, just play within it.