Gen rushing = Camping/tunneling
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Excuses after Excuses, I guess playing this game = camping and tunneling, because u entered lobby xD
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There's no such thing as tunneling, just being smart.
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Focusing gens = tunneling/camping I agree.
The survivors don't need a whole loadout, they just need to focus on doing gens. Which they do, almost every match. A killer isn't not tunneling just because they didn't bring their strongest possible build.
It's the actions that define it, not the build.
One side being efficient = the other doing the same.
The survivors who say its fine to focus gens, which is the smart play, but not fine to tunnel or camp, which is also the smart play, are hypocrites.
If they want killers to tone down the camping and tunneling, they need to tone down their gen speeds too.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
I have no problem with camping or tunneling in the scenario you described. One question though: Do you use Corrupt? If not, then you should honestly consider doing it, because it gives you some time to set up and forces Survivors to move or do nothing.
Often this may be correct, but if I see multiple toolboxes, Prove on 2 people and even 1 or 2 Hyperfocus, then I ask if that wasn't planned.
I think the biggest problem is still map design. If I can get insane rng on Suffocation Pit with the complete middle interconnected (which happens frequently), I can just stand in a corner and wait for them to pop out the 5 gens. This should not happen. A basekit Corrupt would help, but it won't solve the problem.
I could completely imagine that they were too altruistic. Had that myself many times and even fell in the same trap as well. Survivors who rush gens and see that the killer has only one hook will get overconfident.
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I dont know how I'd equate them, but...
Gen rushing is just as it sounds. Kind of a disregard for other objectives, such as healing, saving teammates, cleansing hexes or any other objective they could have.
Its on a similar playing field with tunneling and camping. Both disregard objectives to focus on a single one basically.
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I'm not 100% sure, but I know what you mean and agree.
Both are things we do for the sake of winning.
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Slugging and tunneling are strategies that the killer can use to complete their objective, which is to prevent gens from being completed and killing off survivors. Both killers and survivors only have one way to 'win'. For survivors, it's to finish all five generators and leave through the exit gates. For killers, its to kill all four survivors. It seems like the killer always has the choice to play hard, or to play casually because killer gameplay is more dynamic. Survivor gameplay, on the other hand, is either do generators, or don't. As survivor, you can't really just not do generators without being accused of throwing or being unskilled. But if a killer decides to 'throw' a game, by not tunneling and making sure to get 8 stages before killing anyone off, they are seen as playing the game correctly and fair. I do not believe this is a double-standard, but rather people not seeing the different depths of each role.
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killers demanding 4k every game is the real entitled. gen speeds are too fast atm but killers are in a very efficient state overall as well. some killers are just way too efficient while others have been left behind due to all the crazy perks and changes that have gone in over the lifespan of DbD so far, obviously trapper heavily affected.
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in games where killers camp and tunnel, i usually note that across the board points are low, whereas when i play killer and get a 0K but loads of chase interaction, downs and hooks, i might still get 35k points; i don't feel like those cheap strats are really very rewarding. Similar for slugging honestly! 3K vs 4K points difference is not that big! With that in mind, i would guess most sluggers do it for the chance at 2xpips.
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Thats my experience too. If i play solo Survivor i get the worst players that play this game and when i play killer i face the gods of looping
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That fixes things for one side but leaves it pretty nebulous for the other. The solution needs to address things for both killers and survivors evenly or it goes back to the same jenga balancing we've seen for the past 6 years.
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Completely agree. If the goal of Survivors is to repair enough gens to open the gate and escape, why would they not try to do this as quickly as possible? A team loading up on tool boxes and add-ons provided by the game is merely playing the objective as designed. It would make no sense if they intentionally used perks and add-ons to slow down gen progression and get themselves killed. In fact, that would be game-throwing. We may as well add negative labels to Survivors who heal ("Med Packers"), Survivors who unhook others ("Game Savers"), and Killers who attempt to sacrifice Survivors on hooks ("Hook Killers"). The point is that "gen rushing" is a required action in the game for Survivors whereas camping/tunneling is not the goal for Killers (their purpose is to sacrifice all the Survivors to the Entity - not target a single Survivor). Now those Survivors who stay on a gen instead of going for a save are not what I would call "gen rushing." They could easily be hiding in a locker, cleansing a totem, walking past a hooked Survivor as well - that is selfish play in order to pad individual stats rather than "gen rushing."
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I mean, it's something you should do if your teammates are clearly getting face camped. If killers still blame survivors for not saving their teammates when camping and complain about gen rushing then that's a skill issue on the killer, not the survivor. Also if the killer doesn't apply enough gen pressure and commit themselves to a chase that's out of their skill range, once again, it's a skill issue on the killer why gen rushing happens.
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Not saying I agree with it (I think the idea of ‘Gen rushing’ is silly). Just sharing what I’ve seen killers refer to as Gen rushing. Yes, there is a presumption that if a killer is camping the team will still try to trade hooks. If they let the teammate die and just work on gens they are ‘Gen rushing’ per killer mains here.
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Theyre used to secure a kill as fast as possible to shift the efficiency potential away from survivors and toward the killer before they can prevent further kills. It is absolutely doing the objective for killers to facecamp and tunnel, and its effectiveness is determined by its efficiency. If win conditions were tied to emblems instead of kills, you would be correct, but it is not.
They're not friendly or sympathetic strategies, but they certainly are focused on completing the killer's objective, which is to get as many kills as they can.
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Yeah, it's honestly just killers not performing well enough in the map pressure department. It's their excuse for survivors being too good and being efficient pretty much. Not to mention they are more than likely good in chases. Such a silly way they think sometimes.
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It's considered unhealthy, but they do it regularly, especially Tru3. He also explains exactly why he does every single action while he does it, why he takes advantage of it and when he decides its either not necessary or not efficient, etc. Otz and Scott in particular i watch more for their insight and not their regular matches, but they are also extremely bad examples because they are generally very clear about the disconnect between strategies they encourage and strategies that are currently effective in the game. Believe it or not most people don't want camping and tunneling to be as effective as they are, but they simply understand how much changes to the game have hurt the viability of other strategies over time, especially in regards to their efficiency when compared to LCD strategies. I wouldn't begin to put words in their mouths about any topics as they are all very good at explaining their reasoning and perspectives just fine.
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Which is what you're clearly going to do rather than try to go for the save and get insta grabbed. It's probably the 'you're not entitled to an escape' Crowd that expect it too.
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Then... don't... camp?
You can't have your cake and eat it unfortunately.
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Survivors HAVE to do gens.
Killers, no matter how necessary they feel it might be, do NOT HAVE to camp and tunnel.
That's literally it. Sorry you're getting "gen rushed" but what the hell else are Survivors supposed to? Just sit around and let the Killer get a couple hooks before they sit on a gen? Come on now.
I'm also getting extremely tired of killers using examples that are just super optimized SWFs. Like that is really happening every game, stuff that probably only happens 1 in 100 games.
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I got camped on 4 gens, cause we gen rushed so much
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I mean I don't, that's just kinda my view on it, ya know?
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Why is camping and tunneling ridiculous at 5 gens specifically? Can somebody explain that to me?
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Because people come with you in lobby not for opportunity to see how their characters do nothing, while you having "fun", I can understand camping / tunneling at end of trial if there's no 1 kill, but camping / tunneling / slugging at the start or middle of the trial is #########
It is called: "I don't want to learn to play and improve my skill, so I'll do the easiest thing I can, because I have opportunity and it's no forbidden"
Therefore, for such smart people in the game, a basekit was made for the survivors, let them learn to play, not whine
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Moreover, the developers already make concessions to you, including DH nerf, DS nerf / OTR that isn't working at the end of the trial, giving you a chance to catch at least one, but you are the only one yelling that everything is bad
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I mean, you still got a 3k. What's the problem? You play Trapper. Of course the gens go fast early. Trapper is a late-game Killer. Maybe play a different Killer if you want to exert pressure early.
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So Nurse or Blight then... cause those are the 2 Killers that have pressure early
The other Killers not so much
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There are other plus mobility killers, but you are right many killers are unable to prevent early gen loss because poor mobility and poor map design.
But fortunately for those killers, there are slowdown perks. The worse your killer of choice is in early game, the more you should run. For some killers, running 2-3 slowdowns is borderline necessary. But I promise that if you stack Corrupt + some combo of CoB/Overcharge/Eruption/Jolt, you can defend gens with just about any killer, unless you are a potato.
Now if a team all bring Commodious toolboxes with BNPs, Spools, and Swivel Sockets (maybe with Prove Thyself, Hyperfocus, etc.) and just hammer gens, yeah, not much you're gonna be able to do about that. And that is a helpless feeling. But that also isn't all that common, really.
And generally speaking, I never got the grief about "gen rushing". I mean what else are survs supposed to do at the beginning of a match but jump on gens? Mill around aimlessly? Break bones? Teabag each other?
I think many killers need to internalize that losing 2 or even 3 gens in the first 3-4 minutes is to be expected. The slowdown starts when there are fewer gens to defend. The early game is about defending the right gens, not trying to keep them all up. I often go down 3 gens with only 2-3 hooks and go on to win. A lot of killers seem to flip their lids and panic when they lose a couple gens.
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Right but those are the two that can defiantly can do something
I don't want to run regression perks 24/7
Yes I know that Survivors don't always bring the best Items.... but I can't tell from the pre-match lobby
I mean Totems are a secondary objective...
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Ideally, the game would be balanced for both scenarios. This isn't impossible, it's just a lot more work than one-tuning-to-rule-them-all. Akin to a golf handicap system, game timings would need to be tuned to level the playing field based on the size of the premade (e.g. generators take longer to repair in a 4-SWF match than in a 4-solos match).
Win/loss/etc** statistics would have to be tracked separately for teams with different ratios of premade and solo players. Measures would also need to be taken to ensure that solo survivors are truly solo, including hiding their names from each other until the end of the match, and actively preventing people from being able to snipe their way into a match with people they know. Otherwise the system could obviously be gamed hard.
**IMO, the game shouldn't actually be balanced based on kill/survive rates, it should be balanced primarily on how much fun the participants had. Why? For precisely the reason that started this thread... there are strong winning strategies for both sides that make things thoroughly unenjoyable for the other. That little "Did you have fun?" thing on the game end screen shouldn't be optional, because no one clicks it. You should have to vote to see the final score, and that measure of participant fun should be more than just a guideline for the devs, it should be a key balance metric. But that's just my $0.02.
In a nutshell, 50/50 win rates don't imply that fun was had by all; in the worst case you could have a 50/50 mix of hook camping and gen rushing games where every match was seriously unfun for one side or the other.
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My problem with this genrushing excuse is you some of you killers act like it happens 9/10 games. You get legit rushed one game a week with 4 bnp with toolboxes and prove thyself and now everyone is doing it. If you took on a 2 min chase with one survivor and three gens pop by the time you hook them, you ere not genrushed you committed to one survivor and gave the other three survvors 1 min and 30 seconds to finish their gens.
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It's not fun. No killer has ever said, "Camping and tunneling is so fun!" But fun for me is winning. When I lose all the time, due to factors I can't control, it sucks. I get that as killer, in solo, and even in SWF. It's not about not wanting to improve your chase game. Most of us who have turned to camping and tunneling, we know how to chase. But you're kidding me if you think you can beat good survivors just off of doing well in chase. Gens don't care about how good you're chasing. Neither do hook states. You get frighteningly little for injuring, downing, and hooking survivors. They can shrug that off, because they're still alive, have a chance to rush gens still, and have a chance to escape still. Them being dead is the best and only definitive slowdown you're gonna get as killer, so you've gotta do what you've gotta do to get to that position ASAP.
Almost every attempt the devs have made to discourage camping and tunneling has failed. Oh, survivors get free BT off the hook? Better make sure they never get off. Oh, survivors can have 80 seconds of BT with this perk? Better to hit them right away. Oh, the survivors can pick themselves up off the ground for free? Better make sure I hook them straight away after I down them. They're trying to punish the undesirable playstyles, that they themselves have admitted are legitimate strats, while also making killers so weak that they're forced to play like that, and around and around we go. It's like a sick joke.
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The game is already balanced (very poorly) around average Solo players which is why SWFs are even considered problematic in the first place....
Which one is it, the game is currently bad and needs to improve or is taking SWF into consideration for balance gonna kill the game?
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Everything seems to be written here.
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yawn point of post = killers camp and tunnel because of gen rushing. AND that the 3k was pointless, because it was end game hooks only due to gen rushing..meaning three hooks..meaning I lost a pip anyway..meaning the only survivor got 17k points..meaning, they probably did too. Meaning gen rushing is pointless for everyone. Is that simple enough for you? Or do you wanna misinterpret my words again?
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Yes I play trapper and plenty of great games. There is a difference between gens being done quickly and gen rushing. But 90% of this board has no reading or interpretation skills, so I’m done here.
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Killer's objective is to kill survivors. Tunneling is literally playing the objective. I have mixed opinions on camping. It is necessary in some scenarios - i.e hooked surv in middle of 3 gen, hooked surv by gen thats close to being completed, hook in a narrow lane that other survs must pass to get to the other side of the map (very present on macmillan and autohaven maps).
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that is the lamest answer i've ever heard
you know u chasing someone for 20 seconds, 2 gens pop IT WAS A MISPLAY
they have a broken toolbox and prove thyself, KILLER SUCK GET BETTER
the gens are par on par with each other, that's 100% the killer's fault
people like you are why this game will never be balanced
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but you're wrong op, according to every survivor main, gen rushing doesn't exist, you know maybe toolboxes are just a fiction of our imagination maybe prove thyself doesn't exist either
Brand new part, what's that?
look this community is delusional, they think MMR doesn't exist, gen rushing doesn't exist, camping and tunneling is not a problem
just because they don't face those things they think they don't exist, when in reality they are most likely running the sweatiest build u will ever see
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The goal of survivors is to finish 5 gens. the goal of the killer is to kill 4 survivors.
Do you work on a gen 33% of the way and then leave to a new 0% one? No
So why should the killer get a kill 33% of the way then stop to start a new 0% one?
It goes both ways. If you want killers to be inefficient at their objective you need survivors to do the same with theirs. Double standards like this will get us nowhere.
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That's like saying survivors do not have to finish the gen they're on.
If you want the killer to not finish the kill they already started working on, then survivors need to not finish the gen they already started working on.
But survivors don't leave or slowdown their gens for the killer, so why should the killer leave and slowdown their kills for the survivors?
You want the killer to slowdown their objective? Ok fine, do the same.
If you don't want to do that then don't ask the killer to either. Either both are inefficient, or both are efficient. You cant do "efficient for me but not for thee".
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
It's the same level of ridiculous as 3 gens popping after the first chase.
One just get villainized a lot more.
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It's been an unwritten code for a while now that tunneling or camping at 5 gens is shameful, since you're just guaranteeing yourself a win by getting a kill super early, which is unfun.
Personally I just play for 12 hooks at first, and if I start to lose because of it, I soft tunnel. No, I don't do this for the survivor's fun, I do it for my fun. I try to avoid tunneling most of the time because it's boring for me, not because it's boring for them. Of course I'll still do it towards the end if I need to comeback. I don't really shame those who do decide to tunnel at 5 gens though. It's going to bite you in the back though when you reach a higher mmr, and you have no idea how to loop.
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Except 3 gens popping after the first chase is nothing but the Survivors playing the objective as the game was designed. Anything otherwise is game-throwing.
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Exactly.
Tunneling is the killer doing their objective efficiently. Anything otherwise is throwing.
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I think if you are able to get all 4 kills out of it then tunneling is efficient. But from what I've seen, Killers who tunnel usually only get 1 or 2 kills from that tactic, making it inefficient. Then again, it seems like those tunneling start doing so towards the end game so I'm not sure how effective tunneling would be from the start.
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Ah yes, anyone who disagrees with you is entitled
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Well, the reason why so many do tunnel and camp and why its recommended so much is because it gets them better results.
I had a friend who would camp and tunnel every game because when they didn't they did way worse. So, like you said they normally only got 1-2 kills because they weren't that great at the game. But when they didn't they got 0 kills.
Now take a player who can get 1-2 kills without tunneling. Now when they do tunnel, they'll get 3-4.
I don't normally tunnel and camp because I just don't find camping fun and I have more fun going after everyone than focusing someone out. But the few times I do tunnel, either accidentally or otherwise, that's usually a 4K or 3K + Hatch. Reducing the survivor team from a 1v4 to a 1v3 is just too big of an upside to not be doing it ASAP if you're win focused.
Just because tunneling is the most effective strat, doesn't mean its a guarantee. You can still do poorly while tunneling, it's just your best shot. Survivors focus gens all the time, they still lose games. It's just their best shot at winning.
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Thats right. I've just never looked at it that way and I hope you didn't just turn me into a hardcore camper and tunneler, lol.
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If you're already fine not doing those things I think you'll survive lol.
I've been playing this game for over 4 years now and haven't succumb to the hardcore call. I know I'm handicapping myself, but that's my decision and I'm ok with it. I have more fun playing sub-optimally, others don't or don't choose to.
There's nothing wrong with playing in the most efficient manner. I don't blame players on either side for playing that way. That's their decision and an understandable one. They can't change the game design, just play within it.
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