Why are the devs showing so much favoritism for Nurse?
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I don't know how you got an essay out of my comment.
I also don't know how everything you managed to say ended up being completely irrelevant and missing the point of my post.
But here we are.
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Whether she's the strongest Killer or not, her kill rates are not out of line for over 95% of players and lags behind many Killers for a significant percentage of the player base. To resummarize my arguments, balancing solely around the top less than one percent of the playerbase is a terrible idea as all ranges of player skill have to be able to have fun.
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I mean, your post had no relevancy because you ignored the context of the post you got that snippet from. You had no point.
All you had was 1 sentence out of context to try and discredit my post, which had a lot of points that your comment also missed.
You're simply ignorant, you look at 1 sentence you disagree with, decide that's enough to disagree with the entire post and all future posts.
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Well, again, you gotta look into the reasoning behind that:
- Nurse requires some time to get used to
- After getting used to her, it takes some time to master
- Equipped perks matter
- Platform matters(console Nurse is a lot more difficult than pc Nurse)
Looking at killrates and being like "this is fine" is not looking at the crux of the issue. Looking at the killrates of all MMR's. Myers seems to be nicely balanced. Yet, he's in desperate need of a buff. The biggest benefit he has in the top 5% mmr is his stealth countering most comms. You dont know its a Myers untill he either reaches t2 or if he is seen by a survivor. If he reaches t2, its often too late as a lot of Myers run Tombstone Piece, instantly killing 1, and since 1 survivor is dead after only 1-2 gens, the rest is a lot more managable.
Factors into these rates matter. Balancing solely around killrates is as much as a terrible idea as balancing around the top % of the playerbase. Just as it is a terrible idea to balance a killer towards console or pc alone.
In the long run, nerfing nurse in these ways will give room to buff her in others. I personally am of the opinion that Nurse should be moving at 100% when walking and practically standing still while charging(she moves about 1.2 meters per second, I would cut that in half). Distance wise, it means she can cover a lot more ground before deciding to blink, but if she decides to blink, she cant peek around corners as easily. Keeping her lethality very similar against SWF, but gives more room for survivors to break line of sight(the trees being thinner on all maps buffed Nurse in terms of line of sight, this would basically even that out).
Right now, its to a point where you dont stand a chance against a decent Nurse without comms.
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OK so... If I understand this correctly (please be kind to me if I miss something)
1) Nurse isn't the only Killer that prevents perks from working properly... Stridor Spirit anyone?
2) Nurse is the only Killer that moves slower then Survivors... which is one reason that she has the power she has
3) Piggybacking off of 2... also the reason that she's declared as an M1 Killer (her Power is for movement... Like Wraith and Spirit)
4) As someone who wants this game to be as balanced as possible (which it can't be... cause it's Asym) I don't understand why Survivors want every Killer to be the same... can someone explain it to me
5) If Nurse gets the Special Attack that people have discussed then what happens to the other Killers that have the same mechanic... Wraith and Spirit
When talking about the recharge and range addons... what specifically are you saying is wrong with them...
I did have a few suggestions to change her but someone brought up the other side to those (and they make sense)
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- Yes, though you forgot nemi and franklin's (I think anyway)
- Yep since Burger King Myers is gone
- Kinda yep
- A good chunk of the vocal ones hate anything that deviates from the normal or having to adapt or something
- Probably the same thing
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Alright stop there my friend, you say you don't get punished for a miss as the Nurse? lol she is the killer that most people get frustrated while playing and im not only talking about newbies.
Even if you are a pro playing her don't feel nice because you are constantly getting fatigue and you have to wait for the charges. The Nurse of today its completely different from the release Nurse, there is an abyss in the middle.
Now that being said im not saying the old nurse was balanced neither the nurse of today. But i can assure you that the devs don't have any favoritism for her because if it was then we would see plenty of nurses, and its very rare to see one and when i do they are only the noobs that tunnel and camp because they don't know how to play her outside that cheese way.
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- This is not how they should nerf her because it creates too much inconsistency. The problem is not perks like jolt, sloppy, etc. The problem is starstruck. Better solution would be to give nurse a tiny terror radius, like 8-16 meters, but give her a 40 meter lullaby.
- Nurse cannot reduce her fatigue that much. And the fatigue addons aren't even her best ones.
- Additionally, they didn't nerf the legion one because it was too strong, they nerfed it because they made it partially base kit.
- You forgot that nurse is literally SLOWER than a survivor running. She literally cannot chase without blink, this is why blink cooldown is shorter.
- This is entirely untrue. There is a great tru3talent video where he plays AGAINST a nurse, and he goes over things like "she can make it one blink" or "she is too far, and will have to double blink" it's actually pretty solid and shows the mindset you need to have against a nurse. I'll try to dig it up.
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the nurse is a masterpiece best left unfettered.
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Your post is very interesting, I want to answer it when I have time, and take the time to do it 🤗
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It has been explained to you multiple times why those kill rates for Nurse do not tell the whole story, confirmed by the devs that they should not be used as you are using them.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
No, you have attempted multiple times to say they don't matter and to claim you have non-existent evidence showing Nurse is an issue while simultaneously not being able to explain your position that Nurse but not survivors should be balanced on the top percentile or less of players.
The devs stated that the Kill rates are not the whole picture, which of course they aren't, but they are the only evidence we have.
So, once again, please explain to me how if Nurse is an auto-win why Nurse starts with the lowest kill rates and only ends up with good kill rates that are still not out of line with other Killers in the top 5% of MMR?
If you can do so without referring to these mythical hordes of players whose MMR is so high that their Nurse, whom they allegedly never played before and would start with a lower MMR as per the devs, is also somehow on the top 5% of MMR and somehow constitute enough people they lower the kill rates drastically that would be great as they don't exist.
If you could provide footage of your incredibly long win streaks with Nurse against top tier survivor players as you claim it is so easy that would be helpful as well. I have a suspicion, however, that the reason you refuse to provide this is because it doesn't exist and the reason why you don't provide your survivor footage is because people legitimately pointed out mistakes you were making and things you could have improved on when you did but you don't want to acknowledge that you made mistakes.
I get that you don't like Nurse and have problems against Nurse. However, that does not constitute a reason to make changes to the game. If there are any issues with Nurse that have to be changed then I'm sure BHVR has the data and will put it in its appropriate spot for list prioritization. However, we don't and you still have not provided any evidence for Nurse being an issue for all but the top percentile of players or less nor any reason to suggest that balancing should be done solely on that group while ignoring the enjoyment of everyone else in the game. Nor have you stated why balancing Nurse around the top percentile or less but not survivors is anything but a double standard.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
First, I have stated numerous times SWF is just as troublesome as nurse. The thing is, everyone can accept that fact, yet there are still some people who can't accept the fact that nurse is busted. Your 'us vs them' argument holds no weight with me...
Next, you are putting your faith in the bhvr balance team. Enough said.
Nurse is auto-win? What? Since when? She obviously isn't, as she has the highest skill floor by a large margin. No one says she is auto-win...we say she gives way too much of an advantage in the vast majority of the games she is in against equally skilled opponents.
Wesker has a much higher kill rate. Several other killers do, too, even at the top mmr. And yet the only killer besides Blight (addons) being talked is Nurse. It has only been her for years, and years.
Cannibal is really, really low on the kill rate chart, lower than other killers who really need buffs/changes. Yet everyone will tell you cannibal is not in dire need of any help. Your stats you are quoting do not tell the whole story, at all.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
What you're stating is nothing but the equivalent of 'hey but me and my 5 online buddies think this do it's a great idea'. And, yes, I am putting more faith in the idea that the BHVR design team can balance the game better than you.
By the way, I don't see you posting non-stop on threads complaining about SWFs or bringing up SWFs in threads that have nothing to do about SWFs but I do see you non-stop mentioning Nurse in almost every thread. If you have stated in the past that SWF is a problem my apologies for assuming otherwise but I haven't seen any posts by you stating SWFs should be nerfed.
By the way, I don't think SWFs should be nerfed. Games should not be balanced around an echo chamber such as your talk of high level tournament players and how they supposedly know better how to balance a game for all MMR levels. They don't know better by the way and while they should be included in balancing considerations balancing solely around any one group kills a game.
By the way, Nurse and Blight are the most talked about but you're being highly selective in what you see if you think they're the only ones.
Other than hey me and some other people who constitute a tiny percentage of the player base know better how to balance the game than everyone else including the people who actually have the data and only our opinions are valid but who still can't see how that position is mistaken, elitist and condescending you haven't brought up any evidence. If you are such a great Nurse, feel free to upload games. Until then, I don't believe you. And until you can provide evidence and/or game footage just please stop claiming your opinion is correct when it's just an opinion with no factual basis.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
You don't know much about the balance team if you think that.
As I said, it is accepted fact that SWF breaks the game and gives an unfair advantage. People who play both roles accept that. The issue? Players who think they know much more than they actually do claim nurse is fine.
The only people complaining about Killers other than Nurse or Blight (addons) haven't learned to play yet. They should be ignored, as too should people claiming nurse is fine. Guess I fell into that trap.
Whenever the balance team leader finally goes against a good Nurse she will get nerfed.
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I don't think devs have any favoritism for Nurse.
I am sure they already know and recognize several Nurse issues.
They just don't put in practice fast because they think other unimportant things that no one cares should be done first.
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I go against more bad Nurses than I do good ones. There's a reason why her kill rate is so abysmally low. She's not a pressing issue, and when they do come to look at her, they have to be very careful not to change things that will impact lower skilled players more than the higher skilled ones, otherwise her kill rate will just go down even further.
The only thing I'm kinda on board with, is the idea of resetting her charges when she get's stunned. This means higher skilled survivors (who are more likely to face the higher skilled Nurses) will be able to slow her down more, as they're more likely to get Pallet stuns, Head Ons, and DS stuns.
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The idea of turning the nurse's basic move into a special move would indeed ensure that she no longer has access to certain perks.
I find that depriving a nurse of Strastruck would not be a problem, as this perk gives her much more power than another killer.
Franklin's Demise : personally, I wouldn't mind if a nurse didn't have access to this perk either (in fact, even if this perk disappeared completely, I wouldn't mind, kind of like NOED, in the end...)
Jolt: I don't think we should deprive the nurse of Jolt. It's a powerful perk, sure, but it's situational. It is enough that the survivor falls in a zone with only one or no generator, so that the effectiveness of this perk is not diminished.
Let's also not forget that Jolt can be extremely punishing, but if survivors get too greedy. I remember a game where my Jolt blew up 2 generators 3 times in a row in 30s because the survivors absolutely wanted to stay on these generators...
Sloppy Butcher / Knock Out : I don't see the problem with a nurse having these perks
However, there is a problem.
If the nurse's basic attack is changed to a special attack, and we want to make sure that she can use some perks and not others, it means that we have to change Sloppy Butcher, Knock Out and Jolt so that they can be activated by a normal attacks OR by a special attacks.
However, by doing this, it will mean that all other killers with special moves will be able to activate them as well.
What should be done is to create a third type of move, which would ONLY correspond to the nurse's teleported attack.
Thus, it would be enough to modify Sloppy Butcher, Knock Out and Jolt so that they activate via basic attack AND "nurse" attack.
Other skills like Franklin or Strastruck could be left as is.
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Yeah, exactly. It's just kind of a can of worms. The common proposals to rebalance Nurse usually have ramifications that don't get talked about enough.
I think the more reasonable approach to making blinks count as M2 though would just be to gradually buff non-Exposed perks to activate under more conditions, but then we'd be back at the issue Awakened Awareness had of effectively forcing a perk to be balanced around one killer (even though making certain Basic Attack perks also activate on Special Attacks would be a net gain for more diverse killer builds...)
Edit: Just want to apologize for taking so long to respond to this. I kinda forgot this forum existed for a second on account of a busy week.
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Maybe because a good nurse equals good SWFs?
The only difference is, nurse already got changed / nerfed a few times while SWFs are untouched since they were introduced.
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Turning the nurse's M1 into an M2 comes up quite often in discussions, but the problem with this proposal is that the nurse would no longer be able to use Sloppy Butcher, Jolt, Knock Out, etc., which frankly are not skills that make her superpowered.
Where I would agree is with Franklin and NOED, but really, those two perks are generally aberrations... (this is just my point of view).
In another thread, I mentioned preventing the nurse from using Strastruck by reducing her terror radius (when carrying a survivor) to 5 meters (or even removing it completely).
As for up some skills that activate after an attack WITHOUT increasing the nurse's power, here is an idea:
create a third type of attack, which would correspond only to the teleported attacks of the nurse (which are already taken into account by some of his addons, if it happens, it already exists, in the computer code of the game).
So we would have M1 (normal attack), M2 (special attack) and M3 (teleported attack).
So, it would be very easy for example to buff Jolt only after an M1, but leave him as is after an M3: the nurse would not be more powerful with it, but the other killers could be.
For example: Jolt's range after an M1 ---> 40m, Jolt's range after an M3 ---> 32m (unchanged).
(this is just an illustrative example)
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11 other killers at the top 5% of MMR have the same or higher killrate than Nurse does, according to the September stats.
Do you even know how tournaments work? Or did you just add them to your argument to make yourself seem more knowledgeable? She is never the strongest killer in a tournament, as performance varies widely. Ive seen teammates get a 1k on saloon as nurse, and then go onto a freddy set and 4k at 3 generators right after.
Your statement regarding the twins is so off the mark I don't even know where to begin.
Nurse can be dealt with the same way any other killer can. By survivors wasting time well and pressuring gens effectively, which doesn't even have to be a 'tournament SWF', it happens in solo Q too.
Saying that every high MMR player would agree with the statement that Nurse is overpowered and due for a nerf is complete bullcrap lol. Not even a valid argument as it is just false. You've spoken to all competitive players and anyone at 'high' MMR? Sure bud.
The addition of voice chat into DBD would not affect the killrates in a substantial way, at most maybe a few tenths of a percentage.
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Try her. And post your results
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I agree and also state that's because many of the people who complain about Nurse also say they think SWFs are overpowered but are suspiciously absent from every thread about SWFs while very noticeably present in multiple threads about Nurse. It's fairly hypocritical. Good Nurses and Blights do equal good SWFs and it's self serving to advocate for Nurse nerfs but not for SWF nerfs.
Nerfing any of those pose significant ramifications for game design as, with Nurse for Starstruck, the question first arises is Starstruck giving disproportionate value as shown by kill rates or pick rates and how to change that without gutting the usage of Sloppy Butcher, etc especially given the vast majority of Nurse players don't have disproportionate kill rates? And you also can't punish players for playing with friends without crippling your business model.
Personally, I think a two pronged approach based on buffing solo queue and also the weaker Killers would be a better use of time and resources for BHVR.
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I remember winning most of my first matches with her and that's when I was new at the game in general. She's not hard.
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Concerning Starstruck, you just have to play on the nurse's terror ray; you don't even have to touch the perk. It's actually very simple to prevent her from using it.
Concerning SWF ... actually, when people "complain" about it, they talk about the overpowered SWF, of course but ...
Actually, what is the real problem? Because an overpowered SWF is simply 4 players who know each other, get along well, know how to play in a coordinated and efficient way ...
So ... can we really blame them ? ... I'm not being ironic, I'm really asking the question ...
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Well legit I'm crippled, I only play games one handed on the PS5 so my results would mean nothing
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There is no problem. It's the same thing with Nurse. A few players are going to be really, really good and there's no need to penalize everyone else just because a few people are really good.
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Try to do some trials and count how many times they open the gates
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Its Lee Sin syndrome. They will never nerf the character thats giving the flashiest plays for viewership purposes on their pointless tournaments.
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You can't see the difference between nurse and swf? Sigh..
People don't have their blinders on when talking about swf. Everyone can agree swf gives way too much of an advantage.
Enter the issue: people with either no understanding of game balance or people deliberately trying to keep their OP character too strong try their best on these forums to convince themselves and everyone else that the nurse shouldn't be changed.
If there was any actual discussion with people saying swf is fine (which there isn't) I would be one of the first to call them out. There isn't, because everyone can easily admit the fact. The same fact, that nurse is OP, has too many people acting in bad faith. It is not okay.
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There were a couple of threads recently about SWF. I didn't see you post there.
SWF doesn't give too much of an advantage either; pvp games that have more than one participant have comms. It's expected. Being in a SWF doesn't make perks or items more powerful. They can coordinate and share information more effectively and that's the only advantage.
You seem to selectively ignore aspects of contemporary video game play if it doesn't suit your bias.
However, if you do feel SWF is too strong what is your opinion on how to rectify this?
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Perks like Sloppy and Jolt are way stronger on her. Nurse is the only killer who can use these perks with her power, just... why?
And i don't even talk about Starstruck here, at least this CAN be avoided.
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"Perks like Sloppy and Jolt are way stronger on her."
How are these perks too strong on the nurse?
It should be remembered that once Jolt has blown up a generator, he can't blow it up again unless a survivor comes to fix it ... while the killer is hunting next door ...
This is exactly why Jolt was redesigned; the developers had made it clear that they wanted to make it punitive for a survivor to be too greedy on the generators to want to repair them while the killer is hunting on someone nearby.
Sometimes it's okay, every day we meet killers who see a generator going "ding" next to them...
But sometimes it doesn't ... and it's not the killer's fault, nor so power, just the survivor who took the risk.
And as for Sloopy ... since many survivors are sometimes afraid that the nurse has a Nurse's calling, and they run to the other end of the map to heal themselves ... at the limit on closed maps, like the game, Sloopy, coupled with Coulorophobia, can be very effective, yes.
But in any case these two perks are not "too strong" with the nurse.
"Nurse is the only killer who can use these perks with her power, just... why?"
Because unlike the other killers, whose power can be differentiated from the move/attack, the nurse's power IS her move/attack.
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I see a lot of people complaining about SWFs.
I didn't think that in 2022, we could complain about the fact that players like to play in vocal with their friends...
And what would you like to do?
Forbid DbD players to be in vocal?
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No talk about her range addons which are her best? Her fatigue addons are minor compared to those.
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