SURVIVORS ARE STRONG
Survivors have all the tools (perks and items) to win a trial, though they often end up speaking about Tunneling/Slugging/Camping as the reason why they lost the trial. While I agree that these actions or chain of actions don't require or suggest a great skill of the killer, why people can't simply (and humbly) call on their selves when they loose?
Tunneling and Camping leave big windows to punish the killer. If you loose, you (or your team) were not good enough!
I play mostly as a survivor, but when I play as a killer I never heard one person complimenting or being positive about the way I play or the trial, no matter what happens! This has to change, for good!
Comments
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You can't force people to enjoy being tunneled/mass slugged/camped lol
If you wanna play boring play boring but you're gonna have to accept that people won't like playing with you if you play in a way that is overwhelmingly accepted as unfun
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I am not saying it is particularly fun. I am saying that because of these "etiquettes" people don't accept they loose because of their own fault. As a result, there is never an honorable win that survivors compliment, because they always find something that didn't go as they wanted!
I do not play like that as a killer, but in some section of some trials these actions can mean win or loose for a killer as the game is balanced around the idea of survivors escaping. They can escape, so if they are good, they will. You can also say, you can't always win as a killer. At high mmr, with some killers, on some maps, it's either tunnel and defend hooks, or loose. Not because of your skill, but because of the game design. And survivors should accept it as normal, and prevent it or make use of these moments. They are NOT the reason why you lost as a team.
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its not even only camping or that fancy fantasy word "tunneling" and the just as fancy made up word "slugging". Those are just easy targets to blame someone for playing to their advantage. You could aswell argue it doesnt require skill to do gens or throw pallets. You dont hear killers say "stop throwing pallets" all though they give the survivors also a huge advantage.
What they really think is unfun is loosing. Which is true, who loves to loose? but i can decide to blame it on various things that people have written in their rulebook or i can take the L and try next, OR, if its too annoying then i can like... Play something else and try the next day.
People should play how they want, as long as they are not cheating they are fine.
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Against a full SWF, I have to agree. There are counterplays to camping, and to some extent, to tunneling. Unfortunately, tunneling is disproportionately efficient and powerful against casual players who can't loop well and don't want to dedicate half their build to anti-tunneling, AND against teams that are not on comms. Without coordination, people are going to flail around not being quite as efficient as tunneling requires to be countered. So considering full SWFs are so rare (in most mmr brackets at least), it remains an overpowered strategy (in my opinion).
As for compliments or being positive towards the killer in postgame chat, I actually think quite a lot of people leave at least a gg when they feel like the match was fair. I compliment killers pretty often when I feel like they had anything remarkable, whether that be good map pressure, great mindgames or use of their power (99'd stalks, precise whips on Nemesis or shock therapy on Doctor...), etc.
Whether I survived or died does not matter, it's mostly if I had fun or if I found the game interesting. If I got tunneled, you better bet I did not have fun, so I'm not going to shower the killer in compliments (I just won't engage).
When I play killer, I actually have very positive endgame chats pretty often (besides the quite impersonal 'ggs'), though often after I myself said a few words. Once they realize I'm not "gg ez"-ing them, the survivors are usually pretty open to discussing the game or joking around in chat. =)
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How do you punish tunneling and camping?
If you scour the forums people will say they camp and tunnel because it's effective and then they will say it's needed in high level play. So who do I believe, you a survivor main? Or a killer main who claims tunneling and camping is necessary to win? If it is used in high MMR wouldn't that imply it's a highly effective strategy and not something easily punishable?
Does the killer compliment you when you run them for 2-3 gens because as a survivor main I've never gotten a killer be like "you actually were too good in the chase". The only communication I've gotten is being hit on hook or camped. Should I feel flattered then?
What are the perks that counter tunneling and camping?
The ones I can think of for camping are Reassurance which isn't free and you'd need to always be the one going for the save just to check if the killer is around and maybe Kinship, which requires teamplay.
For tunneling I can think of maybe BT and Off the Record and in the past DS when it was stronger, but it is also behind a paywall.
Or should you instead run a gen-rushing build like Hyperfocus/Stake out with Toolbox?
Wouldn't that only re-inforce the idea that killers have to run 4 gen-slowdown perks? And then survivors have to use builds for gen-rushing. Is that really the fun part of the game?
Just stop claiming tunneling and camping can be punished easily. There's a reason high level players also use them, because they are highly effective and they are very accessible for every killer. They don't depend on perks or killer power because every killer can do that (some better than others of course) and sometimes maps make camping even easier when they have narrow hallways and you can pretty much body block entrances. (what do you do against insta down killers camping?)
If you play like 5 games a week maybe I can understand your attitude but if you play 5-7 games daily as soloq survivor and still stay as positive and want to spread a positive message then can't we say the same about killers complaining about going against gen-rushing builds and bully squads and SWFs.
Also, if you ran the killer for 2 gens and did a gen or two and rescued two people but you lost (die) trying to body block for your teammate who's on death hook can you say this person did bad and they deserve to lose? What mistake did he personally make when he contributed so much?
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I do not consider "gg" a positive endgame chat as it is often a praise on survivors own work or auto celebration. Same as for the killer. If I have fun I will spend 10 seconds of my time writing something. Yes there are very nice people, I would like to play with or against you, but it's just too rare. If you play very good the best scenario is silence at this point. I cannot recall how many times I heard people wishing a family member to die or whatever because (is it even worth specifying?) what, I had 4 hex perks? Or because I protected a generator? Camon.
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I always always complimented people for looping long and find smart ways. I started to play this year and for my first 100h as a killer I played with people with 10-20 times my hours. No matter, how frustrating it was to loose, against what for me where impossible matches, I always spread positivity and never have I thought to complain in the endgame chat.
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It is not true! I almost enjoyed playing more against knights than with them on public lobbies. I never feel in disadvantage when I play as a survivor. There is not such a thing as killer or survivors sides. This game IS balanced, and in search of its balance.
Post edited by Cyber_Atlas on0 -
Camping and tunelling is more accessible as it is the first instinct any newbie killer has.
Looping is not an instinct for survivors or understanding which pallets are safe and which not and gens do require some timing at first. Newbie survivors' instinct at first is too hide and run in a straight line, but the game doesn't work like that because they don't know how to hide effectively or when they are supposed to run in a straight line.
Killers do complain about looping and gen-rushing though, and doing gens is survivors' main objective.
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Ah the good ol' "Hello fellow Survivor mains, Im a Solo Q main myself and I believe we should be nerfed to the ground and facecamped to oblivion" thread, what would be this forum without them...
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I believe the speed of generators being done is suffered indipendentely from survivors doing them. Means it has different factors (map, spawns, chases) but never how people play.
Complaining about looping has to do with frustration. At that point, some people dc as well. It is a loss for a killer, and it's clearly a skill issue. Is it not?
The point is : tunneling/camping/slugging is not enough to guarantee a win. And you should not take it for more than it is
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No. I play everyday with my girlfriend and our friends. This is me, trying to truly have a good time when I play as a survivor and when I play as a killer :)
And it's not about any nerfs.
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Now ask the rest of the hardcore killer mains here if they like survivors looping them for 2-3 gens. Because most of what I see is people complaining about main buildings and safe pallets. And the killer that is coming has an anti-loop power. Even BHVR doesn't like looping anymore and probably want to move the game into a more gen-oriented meta (new survivor has 3 perks focused on gens with one also being an aura revealing perk under conditions and killer has 1 perk about gens but also gives aura revealing, 1 for aura reveal and one for getting stunned, basically punishing survivors for getting pallet stuns).
I'm sure playing with a team of people you know the game is completely different and very fun, but playing alone in a game that wants to go even more into the teamplay route while being hostile to soloq having anyway to communicate with each other besides aura perks for team is painful.
And I play LoL, which is known as being highly toxic and also requires team-co-ordination and I don't think I've ever felt this helpless as in DBD soloq.
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If the killer is outclassed by the survivors, yes obviously. If they are the same level though, can you really claim that?
I've had killers with one or two perks who are attempting to tunnel, but we have more time played so obviously we outskill him as we have more hours than him. But it is questionable in the first place that we get to play vs a beginner.
Is it a skill issue if survivors get to end game and killer has no hooks but he has NOED and end up getting a 3k because he caught the team grouped up in gate trying to open it? He sucked all game long, but now he got a 3k cause he made one good decision and NOED (or maybe you could think of a different end-game perk) handed him a win. Although by his performance all game his skill was lackluster.
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My opinion about it is that this game is meant to be enjoyed the best with friends. And it is balanced around that idea. So yes, playing alone you are put in disadvantage. The game is simply not balanced for that.
I do not know what this game is going to be or what people don't like, but I do know that at my MMR, whatever it is, if I am not efficient, in 5 minutes they are out. So sometimes I resort to secure a kill or tunnel one person out of the game so I can handle better the team. But you sea that coming and you can use it against me. It's my suggestion, I try to do that, and you can work around that. Maybe you cannot always save everyone but you still can win. If the gates are opened and you get out, the killer looses.
And when I proudly menage because of an amazing setup to get everyone in a complete fair way for every existing being in the universe, they will blame it on the build, killer powers or whatever else. Which is still my point: all these are excuses, you loose because you didn't know better. Both "sides".
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Oh, that's very upsetting. I'm sorry you go against so much harassment...
If it can give you a little hope for survivors, here's a couple of my most recent killer endgame chats, both after 3Ks =)
(That one was a 30min game haha, tight 3gen, spent like 15 minutes defending it)
(One of my first games as Pig, rocky start and got looped for 2 whole gens by that Mikaela in orange)
Hope you get good games next ! =D
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You can call it on perks balance. I would say yes it is you underestimatimg your opponent and a crucial passage of the game. But in any case, you are not entitled of a bad endgame chat.
I agree on the rest.
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Yes thank you ahah I also take screenshots of the good ones. Again, there are very nice people. But most of the time, if you want to win (this has to be said), people will rather make excuses and weird accusations rather than admitting (to themselves) a bad play
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there is a diffrent between being annoyed by things or trying to tell you to follow my rulebook. I hate loops as a killer, its not fun. Ive never heard a killer say "dont loop its lame".
just tired of the "dont do that, dont do this." how about "dont try to make others play how YOU want them to." for a change?
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Been getting rinsed last couple of nights. All my games seem to be against we'll coordinated and efficient teams that have the answer to everything you throw at them. In short, no weaklings to get rid of early.
Won my last game on Wreckers but it took a good 20 mins to finish and it was hard work 😅
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I don't. To me it makes perfect sense that killers will tunnel and camp because that is what the game supports and it is the most effective way to win by design.
What I dislike is that this specific strategy has no barrier to entry because it is not gated by perks OR killer powers (obviously some killers excel at camping because of their power) and not even skill (like I said even a newbie player has the ability to do this and the instinct), but to counter it you have to have co-ordination. It frankly asks a lot more on the survivor side than the killer side. If it was more skillful to do perhaps I wouldn't be as bothered since that would mean people who are good at killer can do this and people who are new or bad cannot (like dead hard and flashlights for survivors).
Now keep in mind that this is from a soloq player and not a person playing with SWF and it seems to me from the new chapter that will come out, that BHVR cares more about the game going towards a more team-oriented direction with the new survivor's perk which revolve all around gens and seems to me they are pushing the focus to gens. Now this would be well and good if soloq players had any means to communicate and co-ordinate with each other but currently they don't.
So understand why I am being rather unpleasant. You could say I've been spoiled by League of Legend's available communication even if you don't have voice-chat and seeing DBD being allergic to implementing the bare minimum (like in game chat) strikes me as weird and strange.
It feels like playing soloq you have less agency but more responsibility. Unlike equal responsibility. It's high risk low reward. Your mistakes count a lot more as a soloq survivor and on top of that you can also influence negatively your team by your mistake.
But good decisions don't always guarantee a win even if you have 8 good decision and do 2 mistakes those mistakes can cost you a lot more. So it feels even if individually you do well, you don't have carry potential unless killer is so bad.
And this is also the same way League has evolved over the years. Like back in the earlier seasons some champions could steamroll the other team by themselves, but as years have passed that power has been negated from those champions and it is easier to shut them down now.
As a survivor you can't have such a huge role because there isn't a group of perks that allows you to do so much and your resources are finite. So the more the game lasts the weaker survivors become.
Personally when I play killer and it is rare mind you, I just go for the 3k and don't sweat it and give hatch. For me 3k is a win, perhaps I'd go for 4k if I felt the last survivor didn't deserve it or to challenge myself, so I guess by that I follow the survivor's rulebook since that's probably how survivors would prefer you win as opposed to slugging for the 4k. At the same time I'm not above tunneling or proxy camping (I play Artist so you can't really use her power near a hook anyway). I don't tunnel intentionally yet but if someone unhooks and I'm close and I feel the guy who got unhooked is easier to catch than the unhooker I'll go after them. As for proxy camping I do it near end-game since usually survivors will try to go for the save and you can get a few kills that way. Like I said, I play it rarely so perhaps if I played it as often as survivor I would change my mind who knows.
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I agree with everything. It is a good analysis.
The point of this post is so that people stop dramatizing over those actions. It is not a defense of said actions.
To each their own.
But in game stuff should stay in game, not in chats. As we all play to have fun
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Camping and tunneling feel hopeless because soloq does not have adequate tools to deal with them. Like you can't even see your team's perks. If I knew someone had certain perks, maybe I'd know or at least try how to play around it (say Deliverance). I like to run Distortion as survivor if I'm trying hard so as not to give away info to the killer, but distortion can be so much more if you can just communicate but in soloq you can't. For example if killer is running Lethal Persuer I try to tbag my teammates to communicate it to them, maybe they'll understand but it never works.
The game is supposed to be played as a team but here I can't play as a teammate because the game's design itself won't let me lol. Those are the frustrating parts, because you can do so much more for you team but the game limits you while if you played in a SWF you wouldn't have that problem.
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That is why I think it would be appropriate to have an in game voice chat for the trial
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We could start with icons or a ping system and even written chat, that would be a huge improvement already.
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we are not using "HE TUNNLED ME!!!" as a Safe word to justify Surviver Griefers Sabo hooks right in killers faces Body blocking duos and trios All beaming the killers face and just followin the killer around trying to make him DC. often times Some Killers will tunnle the strongest survivers out of the way so they can turn the tables of the match and be able to easier pick off the weaker survivers. and Tunnleing of weeker noobs is a little toxic but still puts preasure on survivers if they are left with 3 people to work with ona 3 gen game. one could also say that (TUNNLEING) is just as TOXIC As Survivers sabo hooks in killers Faces and Body Block duo and Trio Trolling with Flash Lights. it jsut turns the whoal Match into a Cluster F-CK by turning both sides into toxic players. AND PEOPLE WONDER WHY KILLERS SLUG? Maby its cause there so ######### tired of Trio body blocking sabo sqwads that take turns blinding killers when 1 is picked up and body blocking with dead Hard BT and other perks. that creats almost an endless loop of pickup block pickup block pickup Block FOR 20 MINUETS. and i Main both survier and Killer. and i dont have fun griefing killers. yes i may blind them occasionalyl and locker juke for funny clips. but i try not to sabo hooks and body block in front of them cause i dont want to ruin the fun for them. and as Killer im so Tired of these Toxic Survivers. a couple days ago i had to let 1 guy bleed out on the ground as Knight and use guards as BACKUP just to camp this one guy so his 2 other buddys would stay in close proximity not doing Gens with only 1 guy doing gens. so when he died. i got the other guy hooked him mori him. then i went and got the 3rd guy. and the Last guy got the Hatch. I HAD TO SIT AROUND GUARDING THIS ONE GUY to get a 3K. because the Tools survivers have today are to Strong compared to the Tools of 2018. its RIdiculess and just Apalling of how BROKEN THE BALENCE IS. and a tiny bit is a skill issues but 60% OF IT IS A BALENCE ISSUE. And the NEW MORI SYSTEM Makes things EVEN WORSE. Making NOED to Strong in the End game were killers can down all survivers and get a free Win instead of 1 of the 4k slugged having unbreakble to pick thems elfs up tap heal there buddy and escape. let alone compleatly destroys endGame collaps Deliverence PLays. and the fact that survivers can pick thems selfs up HArdly any killer will win a ######### Game cause everyones picking them selfs up and body blocking and flashlight blinding. just an endless cycle of "I get knocked down but i get up again your never gonna keep me Down" its to OP for Surviver AND KILLER. what in the heck are the Developer THINKING? have they Lost there way of how to balence a good Game? like #########. you Never want either side to be to Strong or els they have to much of an advantage were a cheating griefer wouldnt even have to use a single cheat at all. instead of a joyride like it is now. IT BE A CAKE WALK. just how things are changing and the Stupid desicions have pissed me and alot of other people off. and it makes me wanna Quit DBD. like just Shelv the Gmae forever or till they FIx these Iissues. it has been so frustrating
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thats just you guys being good sports of the game. not every game is going to be like that. cant use 2 or even 4 games. tbh i think good data would be around 30 to 50 matches.
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Please format.
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Absolutely. The match is in their hands. We can't control being matched with terrible teammates, but at the end of the day that's still us not being good enough as a team to win. So I don't know why people always blame the killer for their misfortune, or think that the game should be balanced around getting said bad survivors in their lobby. Fix the matchmaking, and you'll see how broken survivors truly are. There's nothing that M1 killers can do against them. You don't JUST create deadzones or get a strong 3-gen, because the survivors do control whether those things happen or not. Play safe or greedy depending on the situation, be efficient, think about what your teammates are doing, and don't give the killer downs constantly, and you'll be fine.
If you're gonna get mad at the killer, at least have a good excuse, like them being toxic and BMing. Using strategy, playing well, or playing a specific killer isn't toxic anymore than the same on the survivor side. No other game's community demands from the other side, especially the 1 in the 1v4, to play in a way that causes them to lose, or gets mad at them for playing optimally. Notice how all the big and small content creators showing off "this new/unique crazy build" for a killer are, 90% of the time, going against babies. If they tried those same builds against good survivors, they'd struggle to get A hook. I've been there.
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maybe youre just not good at killer i do quite fine and i get alot of positive comments on my steam acc (which i can provide proof for if needed for you to believe me)
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Maybe you are good as a killer but you are not very good at reading. There is nothing personal.
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I haven't been having much trouble in my games.
Outside of the one Nemesis game which made me remember why I can't play Nemesis anymore.
I can offer some tips to try to help your Killer gameplay?
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If you are friend of the guy up I can suggest you too a good eye doctor. This thread does not regard me as a killer or my performance. It is about people not calling on themselves when they loose and, in general, a tendency of discriminating the killer's work. I do get positive comments and eventually I get people joking at the end, but it's mostly because of something I did. Not because I did an insane performance. If you are extremely fast and efficient, the best you get is silence. Otherwise they will blame the build or the killer's power.
And the focus of the thread, one last time : if you tunnel or slug for a section, they will overtalk it and consider the main reason why they lost, and feel entitled to come and say to you whatever they want, something they really wouldn't do outside of a screen :)
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So This entire thread is about how you're surprised that playing in an unfun way makes people unhappy?
Okayyyyy.
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I knew I was wasting my time talking to you
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There are people that camp and tunnel as a playstyle from the first chase. Then there are people that when they pay against a swift 4 items + map offering adapt. If the killer I am playing can handle the map good, based on my skills, no problems, I will start ten thousand chases from 0 far from where I hooked. If my killer does not have mobility, you brought a huge map or you are exploiting a section of the map and you have the possibility to reset within 10 seconds, yes, I will tunnel the **** out of you :) and that is because I simply want to have a chance to win. Because 4 people bringing these things are using their best cards! You play hard, I play hard. If I need to camp one person because it is important for me, I will do it. I was the killer. Not an entertainer.
There is common sense. Again. But tunneling/camping/slugging is never the main reason why a team looses. And it is normal for killers with the survivors current meta to resolve to these actions in certain trials, depending on how you play as well. Because if you find me to loop me around the game you can be sure you will not have a good time, as I want to enjoy my game with the horror vibe it has. I have no intention to go around on vacation on ten thousand pallets. If you play to mess with the killer, expect that some killers don't want to play to loop. I want to be scary and keep the game vibe :)
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I was asking for clarification.
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Tunneling and camping aren't infallible. It's situational how effective they are, based on what the killer's doing and what each survivor is doing. Sometimes the play is to body block the person being tunnelled, and sometimes that'll give the killer a 4k instead of a 2k. Tunneling and camping aren't necessarily punished easily, but like hook bombing, it's easy to understand what the punishment is. Some people can't understand it though, and claim that camping and tunneling is an instant 4k.
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You have to accept that your kill rate should stay around 50% at any MMR.
You can play fair and have 2K against equal skilled survivors.
Or you can go 4 slowdown, tunnel and totally dominate 4K at 4 Gens left to your equal skilled survivors.
Only to get 2K against far better skilled team.
Players like you is why Im really happy that MMR is about kill not hook.
2nd chances stack survivors escape when they should not, play against 4 slowdown tunnel killers that get undeserved kills. Let the sweaty play with each other.
Im happy sitting at mid low MMR doing 10 hooks 2K to play against another equal skill team next match. Most of these survivors use meme builds just like me.
In the end, both you and me get 2K average. Except I dont get stress.
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To each their own. If you have fun deranking ok. I play to win. And I have no 2k average.
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I don't disagree with you, I was only saying that tunneling and camping are hard to punish and not easy as the OP claimed, otherwise you wouldn't see those strategies be effective in high MMR as well.
And I've made it clear I come from a soloq perspective, where camping and tunneling are easily more successful because of the lack of communication and co-ordination of the team. Killers thrive a lot more in un-coordinated environments, don't you think so?
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I think that is too broad a statement, if you are playing wraith vs equally skilled team regardless of build you should lose.
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I know it's not representative, it was just an example to cheer them up. =)
Survivors being good sports like this is very common in my killer games though, and BM very scarce. In all my time of playing killer (which is nowhere near the thousands of hours people have here, I'll concede), I've only been "gg ez" once, and called a camper once. The rest have all either been silent or encouraging.
I know I'm an outlier, but maybe I should try and see how many nice people I run into for 30 or 50 matches ! =)
(It still would not be representative because it would only be on mid to low mmr depending on my killers, but it would be an interesting experiment!)
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Don't bother, this guy has devolved into a meme worthy joke.
Every but 2 of their last 30 comments were something about "everything is killer sided".
Best one was "killer skins provide more of an advantage than survivor skins" 😂
Really a miracle how someone like that hasn't been banned for spamming the same am BS over and over again.
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stop pretending people should cheer you when you are camping and tunneling all game.
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I mean in the sense that survivor's have the potential to be extremely strong yes. But most player's are bad and solo loses lots of efficiency, but that doesn't mean a group of 4 good solo player's can't look like a swf due to their skill. I know it's the forums, but people downplay survivor's and even try to make all killers sound op when in reality if you are losing to half of them with even skill on both side's grave mistakes were made or teammates trolled. Especially when every game I am going against 3 med-kits, people will bring troll builds and 0 items and then start complaining.
One thing I never see brought up is that pre dropping and w is the most efficient thing in the game vs most killers and is extremely unfun/boring for the killer. I would personally compare that to being camped, it's the same level of entertainment on both sides. If tunneling takes too long then all the gens get done and it's a 1k, if gens go too slow before pre-throwers throw all the pallets then it's a 3k/4k. I don't support either but I never see it talked about.
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Yes. I just don't like people saying "solo needs buffs because campy tunnel" as a blanket statement. Fix the matchmaking, and you fix most if not all of that.
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SBMM screws everyone over tbh. casuals get punished
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Always with the baseless skill questioning. The survivors actually weren't sore winners to you? Lucky you. I'm assuming they're saying those things because you often let them beat you by playing nice. Otherwise that's very out of character for them. The OP is saying he gets insulted either way, so he might as well play "scummy" aka using strategy to win. He's far from the only one.
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