Semi in-depth on how eruption is over tuned
We can compare eruption to another meta slowdown perk: Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance.
Scourge Hook require both a down and then that down to be taken to a scourge hook, this removes 15% of a gen or 13.5 seconds off of a generator, which majority of the time wont have any more regression cos someone is working on the gen.
Eruption require a down but doesn't need the hook, just the fact that you have kicked the gen before hand AND it effects multiple generators. It removes 10% off of each gen so 9 seconds - 64 seconds but usually you'll see about 2-3 gens with 10% progress being effected so 18-27 seconds, so let's says 18 seconds as a lower average. This alone would be enough to make the perk have more value than Pain Res.
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE...
There's the undodgeable Incapacitation for 25 seconds. This sets the gen to regress at 25% speed. Meaning each gen will lose a further 6.25 seconds.
Therefore each gen effected will usually lose 15.25 seconds of progress. Meaning 2 gens lose 30.5 seconds of progress.
TL:DR
Scourge Hook: Pain Res = 13.5 seconds
Eruption = 15.25 seconds/generator
Comments
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You're not considering that regardless of the number of generators affected by eruption, the perk goes on cooldown. Then, while it's on cooldown it cannot be applied to any other generators, and it cannot be activated again until the cooldown is complete, a generator is kicked, and a survivor is downed again.
So, it takes 16 seconds to hook someone, then there's an additional 14 seconds where you cannot apply eruption which means that the first gen you visit after hooking someone usually does not receive eruption. On top of that, you will often times get into another chase soon after kicking that gen if you go to the generator with the most progression, which it makes sense to. So eruption might become active while you're in a chase, and have not kicked any generators. So, unless you're a killer with high mobility, if you don't exit or postpone a chase to kick gens, you're likely not going to have it fire on every down.
You can use empathy to counter the incapacitation, and cooperative repairs with prove thyself to complete gens in between downs. If you really want to avoid it, only work on gens that are at zero progress - they're less likely to have had eruption applied to them.
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Something else you forgot to factor in.
Blocking gens and preventing repairs is a more effective slowdown than active regression.
A gen blocked for 30 seconds, is equal to 30 charges of slowdown, which equates to 30 seconds of repairs. Equivalent to 2 minutes of flat regression, or 33.3% instant regression.
Eruption not only renders the gen unrepairable, but it prevents that survivor from doing other things like healing and totems as well. So it not only has 15.25s direct slowdown, but it has an additional 25s indirect slowdown, and it prevents the survivor from being useful elsewhere as well.
40.25s of slowdown, or 44.72% regression, plus no healing.
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Regarding the cooldown: it's a 30 second cooldown on the proc, and survivors are Incapacitated for 25 of those seconds if they're hit by it. The cooldown is almost a complete non-factor given the playstyle that goes along with it. Gens will be kicked before chases are taken.
Empathy shows you an injured survivor. It tells you nothing about when they'll go down in a chase.
Not working on kicked gens leads to 3 gen situations, and working on kicked gens vs a gen kicking build is often futile. It's why many players say gen kick regression is overtuned. Killers don't just run Eruption. They run Eruption/CoB/and usually Overcharge, and they kick every gen on repeat. The choice often boils down to working on kicked gens or not working on gens altogether.
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Oh, yeah, you're right. I don't know why I thought that about Empathy.
In the times that I've used eruption, I often kick a gen before the cooldown ends.
But you make a good point, because on it's own it's easy to see how it can be weak. But, like most things in DBD the power of certain perks and abilities really shows when used in combination with certain things. I don't have CoB, but I imagine I would use it with eruption if I could. With overcharge, that would be pretty tough to beat.
With one of my builds I run eruption + overcharge + thana + brutal strength on plague with prayer tablet, and people really struggle with that. I can't imagine they would have a chance at winning with call of brine on top of it.
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The incapacitation is 25 seconds, and the cooldown is 30 seconds, you can not kick the first generator you go to regardless since it'll be regressing as no one can tap it cos of incapacitation.
Sure there may be 14 seconds where you can not kick gens, but that also includes running to the gens (higher the rank you go the more likely someone is to hold a 3 gen)
True I had not considered taking empathy, however having to use a perk slot for the potential to go against another perk is similar to just using shattered hope to counter boons. IMO bad game design.
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That's true if all the gens were kicked, but I often only have 2-3 gens kicked. If I don't stop to kick gens in chases, I often have 1-2 gens active by the time I down someone. Although, this is an estimate and I admit I'm not the most efficient.
That's true. I'm not sure how it happens to me. I know sometimes I enter chases before I kick gens sometimes, or chases end next to gens I haven't kicked yet, and when I do eruption is on cooldown. It's not an incredible loss, but it does happen.
Yes, I definitely agree with that!
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What magic world are you playing in where you have all this time to kick gens as killer? On weaker ones I can barely find time to use Pop some games, let alone go around stacking up kicks on gens.
The only survivors losing to eruoption are garbo; or probably losing the game no matter what perks the killer brought
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I do think eruption is over tuned and a dumb perk and should be changed in several ways but disagree with your analysis
Problem 1. You are defining an eruption as 2+ gens per proc most of the time, this is based on what? If a killer is going around kicking every gen prior to getting a down or even kicking every gen they see then that is time spent not chasing or doing anything else. So either way the killer is either not getting multiple gen procs every eruption or they are spending time not chasing/doing anything offensive except going to kick gens prior to trying to get a down.
Problem 2. "There's the undodgeable Incapacitation". It is dodgeable. Very dodgeable. By a SWF. "Guys im about to go down, let go of gens" completely dodges it. Yes I am aware in solo queue you do not have that option and I agree it is bad, but let's not pretend is a flawless uncounterable incap.
It's the same problem as knockout, blindness in general, and most of the other meme countered by swf perks with the difference being that this one is very tangible and noticeable whereas hiding auras aint that great unless you are going out of your way to slug. The design is still awful though. "destroys solo queue and is destroyed by a good swf" does not equal balanced to me
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If you get into a match that has 4 Solo Queue players chances are that Eruption might work 3-4 times in the trial
If you get into a match that has a 4 man SWF playing chances are the Eruption might work once if that
Once you realize that the Killer is spending more time kicking Gens then actually chasing flags must be raised
Also Gen regress at .25 charges per second
I don't know the math behind using Eruption, Pop, Jolt, PR
Or Gen slowdown using Thana, GOP, Dying Light
I would like to know
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Ah yes because once I realise the killer has Eruption, I magically gain the ability to telepathically sense when my solo queue teammates are going to go down, that makes sense.
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Then run perks that help with it then....
All I'm saying is that it takes gamesense to try and counter Eruption... yes I did say TRY
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I'm not saying that I have all gens kicked? Just that I will kick the gens that I want to defend then take chases on the people who're pressuring those gens. And sure on some weaker killers you may struggle to find the time.
I disagree that the only people who're losing to eruption are bad players, it's the soloQ nightmare.
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For problem 1, most killers running eruption are also running eruption + CoB (from what I see). In the late game, after they get a down, they hook in their 3 gen and keep the pressure on those 3 gens. There's plenty of time to kick 2 of your 3 gens in your 3 gen. But even early on, unless they take info perks, which I'm seeing less and less of, they don't have anything to do other than kicking gens while searching for survivors.
For problem 2, yes this is more aimed at soloQ, I tend to either play solo or maybe in a duo. So I can't comment on how easy it is to dodge in SWFs
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I made this post a little while ago when the rework first came out with the math behind a lot of the gen regression, where I tried to compare all of them to a single use of Pain Res
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Aura perks don't help you determine if a teammate is going to go down, just that they are being chased
Game sense is irrelevant because even if you 100% know for a fact a gen you are on has eruption, you have to either stop working on the gen until someone goes down (Aka not being productive and giving the killer more time) or work on it and risk being barred from playing the game for 25 seconds (Once again not being productive and giving the killer more time)
It is a lose/lose scenario. Not all SWFs play the game like it's a tournament with constant callouts, because spending half the match saying the words "im going down" is boring as hell lol
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Ok then... I appreciate it
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Without going into the numbers, Eruption is the only perk that rewards killers for downing, besides Jolt which... pfft. Kill Eruption, and you take away the only incentive to kick gens.
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Imagine if this game had Old object of obsession with perma wall-hack on the killer. You could counter eruption like SWF. best counter to the perk is looping. they should make the incapacitated AoE in 4 meter radius so that swf cannot avoid the perk. Its like whole blindness problem that @Carth talks about.
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Call of Brine + Overcharge are 2 very strong gen kicking perks which people were using before people realised the strength of Eruption. Pop still works in certain situations.
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Pop is a joke. Overcharge/Call Of Brine can be gen tapped.
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Yeah, key word here is "can"
They "can" be gen tapped
Aka there is something a survivor can do to actually halt the effect of a pretty strong perk. (Well Call of Brine at least, Overcharge is so/so imo)
You don't have that with Eruption. All you can do is either leave the gen until someone goes down or just try to finish it before someone goes down. (Alternatively, be in a SWF)
Also kicking gens isn't hard, people really overestimate it - if you run call of brine and overcharge and you can keep survivors off it for a bit, their progress will get eaten extremely quickly. Call of Brine by itself has bought me at least 1 extra generators worth of time in most of my games, even against people who gen tap.
You're also banking on the teammates of the person who you pushed off the generator knowing that it has a lot of progress that's being quickly devoured by these two perks (Which, yeah if it's a swf sure)
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Pain Res can be sabotaged or body blocked, DMS can be never proc'd, Ruin can be cleansed, you can run away from gens to stop jolt, you can heal against thana. All slowdown has counters.
Also you don't need perks that reward for downing, since downing gets hooks which gets kills which gets wins. I think most people will still kick gens even if eruption gets nerfed.
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Worth noting that most players cannot hit Overcharge consistently and even good players will occasionally get cucked by a 4 o'clock skill check.
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Please, let's agree than being in a SWF is not a reliable way of counterplay. You cant have perks that get full value out of people not playing with friends.
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They SHOULD be gen tapped. Why would survivors just let a gen go down like that? Yes, you technically can't gen tap with Overcharge, key word "technically" because there's just the skill check you have to hit. I get it; not everyone can hit the skill check every single time, especially on console. But 95% of the time, you should be able to.
There are perks to let you know where the killer is or where teammates are, so it's not impossible to know when someone's gonna go down. "But you have to equip perks for that." Yes, the same thing y'all expect killers to do just to get a hook sometimes.
Let's stop this right here: "Kicking gens isn't hard." Naw, really? But neither is walking, nor holding a button on a gen, nor picking up a downed survivor. So what do you want to do? Give the player a mini game before they can successfully complete those actions? Like...
The way you talk about survivors, it's like you expect them to win without using any intelligent thought. If the killer's camping a gen, he's not on hook or other gens, so you push those. Even if they don't go to stop the gen from regressing for some reason, they must be pushing other gens then. You even say SWF straight counters the perks.
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Nothing is guaranteed, so that's why I said they "Can" be tapped. Not every survivor has the same game sense, attention span, perks and so on. I've seen so many games where survivors techincally did like 6+ gens due to strong regression perk stacking.
There's no sure fire way to dodge eruptions crippling penalty apart from what I already said, which is why I think the perk is badly designed.
And yes I stand by the statement; kicking generators is not hard at all. Some people act like you lose so much time doing it but you really don't.
Final thing - thanks for projecting intentions onto me. Nowhere did I say survivor should be easy/without intelligent thought, that's just you projecting what you want to believe I'm saying when all I am arguing is that this perk is badly designed.
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All the examples of easily counterable gen defence, you're right on. But what do you mean killers don't need perks to reward downing? I don't think a down does a quarter of as much as you think it does. If the killer downs and hooks 1 person, that's only 1 off gens that needs to go save them, so there's still 2 pushing gens until you start a chase. If they keep that up for like 3 hooks, all the gens could be done by then. Even if you hooked that same person those 3 times, then you're just resigning to a 2k at best, because then their teammates will finish all the gens even faster. You have to count on survivors playing efficiently when talking about balance, simple as.
Eruption cannot afford to be weaker than it is now or it will be a dead perk. And sure, bad killers will continue to kick gens because they think* it will help them.
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there's a little thing that you didn't put into the equation: the time needed to apply eruption (you literally don't have the time to kick every gen in your way, especially in the beginning when survivors can potentially/easily finish 3 gens even before the 1st chase will end). You can still apply it on a 3 gen situation and if at least one survivor died before reaching that phase, but it's still extremely situational
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And I've defended the perk's "bad design." If I was projecting, it wasn't that far a stretch, because you literally insist that survivors might not even have average game sense. Not advanced or expert. Average. So then why are we talking balance about a perk with them in mind?
You lose tons of time kicking gens. Killer has never had time at high level to go around kicking multiple generators, just to get use out of Eruption, and still win. I think that's the nail in the coffin on my attempts to get through to you. You won't even concede that kicking gens is a time waste.
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Does it matter what ever the secs you lose on generator.Once the eruption happens that's 10% regression going by your numbers Generators regress at a default rate of
0.25c/s, taking a maximum of ~360 seconds to regress from 99.9... to 0 %it takes the killer 14's to hook a survivor,15 seconds to make it back to that area.Thats 29's let's say you're running POP 20 regression on a 50% gen.Now you have 30% lost in generator regression now your back at 20% you chase the one survivor because in really good teams 4 are still alive by two gens, which they gen spread and you lose 3 gens in 2mins of a game maybe 5 minutes.
Gen is set at 20% the perks that gives you additional speed for skill actions ,such as repair, healing and they get those stacks for this perk not only that some ones running prove thy self,and leader with add-ons that increase repair speed.
8's,to repair speed,15%prove thyself,clean rag 20%,30%to socket swivel 50% to for tool boxes common. That's 123's when default gens are done 80's .that's one gen and a quarter
Where does 25 incapacity hurt survivors? In 2min chase's maybe 5 if you're not careful
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That's a small gauge compared to other things that speeds gen repair
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I'm gonna be honest, someone actually saying that laughable cooldown affects in any way the absurdness of the perk is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever read
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Well Nemesis is a weak killer,so they don't need to attack him, going for his only reliable perk
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Perks aren’t required to have a way to reliably bypass them.
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Incapacitated should be replaced with blocking the generator.
Solves a few problems:
▪︎SWF coordination nullifying the perk and being a solo queue destroyer.
▪︎Tones down the regression aspect moderately.
Volià!
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Yeah but gens don't lose regression,when there blocked ,so are we talking about a corrupt intervention block,then that's worth the change
I guess they'll call Corrupt Eruption 🌋 Volià!
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Sort of agree, but decrease the duration of the block too. Even if it was just blocked for 25s instead of incapacitated that’s still too much imo. But make it so the gen is blocked even if it wasn’t being worked on, so SWF players letting go does not prevent it.
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I agree with you that the block duration should be decreased, and always block to avoid SWF from using comms to counter it. That's what I was trying to imply with my suggestions because it would balance out the perk nicely.
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gens do lose regression when blocked (there's still an animation (sparks) but no regress is happening)
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I think DMS does regression or Pain Resonance when blocked (smol) If you kick a gen with Erupt on ,pick up a survivor Thrilling Tremors blocks the regression so does Alliance, which I've seen a couple games lately may be some type of counter to Eruption
Still in all the perk is useless against hardcore teams , solo que you forget, your not there to do every gen an open gates your their for own survival but it's beneficial to work together,but you don't have to
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If I see my teammates potatoe and feed killers hooks ,I let them die on hooks or bleed out and try to outlast the other survivor and go for hatch,keys exist!
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kinda hard to understand what you mean... will do blind guess, i think?
With Pain Resonance, if "most progressed" gen is blocked, it'll choose the most progressed gen that isn't blocked, if i'm right
As for pain resonance+DMS - firstly there is 15% regression, then gens gets blocked by DMS, so, that 15% will work, but no passive regression (0.25/s)
same would be with "corrupt eruption". 10% regress, then blocked, and passive regression is stopped until gen is unblocked
and yes, you can technically counter Eruption 10% regress with Repressed alliance. Or killer can "counter" it with Deadlock (*cough cough* bad memories)
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