Reasons for the Nerf Nurse threads
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The problem is, I don’t think looping is very skillful- it’s mostly memorizing tiles. M1 killers are bad because even the best player with those characters stands no chance of stopping the survivor in a reasonable amount of time. DBD as intended is a broken design. The only reason the game holds together is that most of the playerbase is bad.
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special attacks while blinking, rework distance addons to do some meme things as they usually do when they rework things and then tune down double recharge maybe allow the green to exist but not stack it with the yellow and turn the green recharge into purple or even greater... that would help massively without needing to rework her see how that goes and then after some months of data see if that balanced the situation and no further changes are needed. i dont know if reworking the 3 blink addons is a good idea most likely is but with that u will need to change the steam challenge of grabbing after blinking 3 times.
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I think that there is a definite level of double standards in play. As an example, I've never seen any of the more virulent Nerf Nurse posters ever post in any of the threads suggesting that SWF is OP. They may say they think that but actions do speak louder than words and I don't see any calls to balance survivors around Hens coming from the same people who say Nerf Nurse around the theoretical god level Nurses.
Some people also can be stuck in their opinions and that's why they're so deaf set against open discussions. As an example, in my original post in this thread I stated that I think the Nurse complaints stem from more than just the 'I think this might be too strong' or the 'I just want an advantage for my side' which are the most common reasons for Nerf threads. I was accused of telling people what to think, being condescending, being unskilled, etc but I never said people shouldn't think that Nurse is too powerful; I said these are other factors that might be affecting people's perception of Nurse and that they had an opinion but opinions are not necessarily facts.
My position on all of these threads has been:
(a) I think Nurse is fine and I enjoy versing her. This is an opinion. It may or may not be shared by specific individuals and it may or may not be right
(b) The data to determine if Nurse is fine or not is not held by any member of the community and only BHVR has it. The only limited data we have suggests there is not an issue but it is not a full picture. The people saying to nerf Nurse have no reliable data to support their view because anything they present (eg selective tournaments) are too small of a sample size and the subset of players is too restricted. Any conjecture on whether or not Nurse is OP or not is a matter of opinion
(c) If a game relies on participation to be healthy the game should be balanced around all skill levels so as to maximize enjoyment. While small subsets such as tournament players and total beginners should be considered since they should have fun as well they are not the sole groups to be considered.
As a corollary of that, if people want to balance Nurse around SupaAlf as an example then they should also be calling for survivors to be balanced around Hens and Team Oracle. Anything else is a double standard.
I would say a lot of these calls to nerf Nurse fall under the 'I want an advantage for my side' if it weren't for Nurse being so distinct. As an example, if a Nurse is charged up on a second floor building I rush the Nurse and I steadfastly avoid pallet throwing and window vaulting as much as possible unless the Nurse is in fatigue. That's the opposite of nearly all other Killers; I'm never going to rush an Oni second floor or not and throwing pallets and window vaults normally helps me in chase instead of hurting me. That's why I posted those reasons there because I think Nurse's mechanics affect the discussion around her.
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Bruh...you picked up a never touched nurse....of course you're gonna steamroll your first matchups you have no MMR. I can do the same thing with a never touched hag or trapper. Play until the survivors have a brain, and then come back to tell us about your prodigal no scopes.
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I just need to point out that there are a lot of players who know how to handle a Nurse, and they aren't necessarily thousands-of-hours players.
These last few weeks, most of my matches have been against survivors who know exactly how to extend a chase. Winning is pretty hard against them. (I'm not counting the obvious cheaters of course : I get a bunch of these too)
(Note: on the killer side, I play Nurse the most. Last time I've checked, I had passed 26k blink attacks on the Steam account)
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Yeah well, I get the same results as doc atm, and I've been playing him forever, killers are definitely stronger than before imo
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I mean that's not fair to survivors either way, that implies low MMR killer vs. low MMR survivors is expected to get steam rolled - that's just not a good experience for new survivors and adds evidence to why a nerf is necessary
But yes, happy to continue to steam roll with nurse up the ranks; also there's a reason why she still kills at 62% rate at the top 5% elo
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How many times must things be explained to you before you stop repeating things that are not true...? Calling for changes to nurse is the same as calling for changes to swf or map balance.
The thing is, the latter two don't have fierce opposition. While all three are obvious changes that need to happen for the health of the game, only Nurse has a few posters fiercely defending her despite how her being OP is obvious.
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So you're saying 'Nerf Nurse!' implies 'Nerf SWF!'? or 'Rebalance Maps'? I'm unsure how you think that means the same thing.
Edit: I'm very unclear on what you're trying to say. Everything I said is either true or stated as an opinion.
Or are you attempting to say your opinion for which you have no factual support is a fact?
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The problem with nurse's unique counterplay is that other killers counterplay is too similiar/ zhe same. See the whole spirit thing where they gave more info to survs.
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For the bad and unwilling to improve survivor main, any mindgame or abhorrent "guesswork" needs to be reduced till it's "he walks right, i go left". Afterall even survivor bottom line gotta play against it without effort or interest in getting better." /s
Doesnt help she was designed before the killer design philosophy changed. Shes not intentionally clunky with an ability that works against the user. See what DS has to do for a single hit. Or newest knight, cant just look at a gen from distance and send a guard over like freddy can target a teleport, no he gotta stand still float (visibly over there) and kick it himself. Can he even see survs while scouting?
Post edited by Raptorrotas on2 -
If you haven't used the nurse in months, chances are her MMR has gradually dropped to a relatively low level, which explains the part you just mentioned.
Also, one game is not representative of a general fact.
Even people who play regularly with the nurse can very well come across disorganized survivors who don't know how to do anything but run in a straight line in deadzones, and the next game, come across a squad that gives them all the trouble in the world to get out of it.
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While I totally agree that Nurse wouldn't mind being toned down a bit (preventing her from using Starstruck and NOED, for example), I also agree that her very large difference makes some players not understand her and not play properly when they face her 🤗
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The fact that a nurse wins against a group of survivors on a single game is not a proof that she is "too strong"; again, you can very well, with the same build, and on the same map, fall once on survivors as good as potatoes, and the second time, on survivors playing so well that they will make you doubt your own abilities.
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Are you suggesting that the nurse should be reduced to : "She goes left, I go right?" 🤔
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Why do people have to complicate things,its really that simple,Nurse is too OP,she ignores everything in the game and she downs you fast and abuse perks other killers cant just as good.
If going to the corners of the map is the best counter to Nurse,you know she's busted and a killer like her should not be a thing in the game.
Its absolutely crazy its been 6 years and she's still this overpowered.
Going againts Nurse its not fun,you can be the best survivors in the world and you will still die againts her.
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The overuse of generalizations and exaggerations is not really useful in a discussion, you know...😣
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Oh god no. That'd be ridiculous. Needed to edit the post a bit but i was being sarcastic on the notion that nurse totally needs to change because bad survivors cant loop her. Sarcasm is hard in text format and a language barrier lol.
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My mistake, I understand better, sorry; indeed, on a forum, not obvious, sometimes, to understand the intonation of the sentence 😂
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I really can not discern if this is satire. The "argument" C is especially ridiculous
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That's probably a good indication C applies directly to you.
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I was responding to this https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267107#Comment_3267107 - the fact that this user quoted as saying "of course you're gonna steamroll your first matchups you have no MMR. I can do the same thing with a never touched hag or trapper." - The argument is not only a single case study of my performance; the very notion that this commentary exists enforces that the NOTION or STEREOTYPE that the game is currently imbalanced towards killers and especially lower MMR tiers is evidence. You're argument of saying a group of "big brain or competent survivors" can win a single game against a nurse is neither proof that "good nurses can be beaten". However...
So when you look at the bigger picture; looking at Sept 2022 kill rates here https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/350586/stats-kill-rate-by-killer-and-mmr-september-2022
The compilation of the data above of both our arguments... big brain survivor teams wins vs skilled nurse wins - data shows that the skilled nurse will win significantly more. 62% kill rate at top 5% MMR - this also does not consider the friendly "skilled killers" who let the 4th survivor escape by choice or the lucky break of a hatch spawning near them in a dominating killer game. While the counter argument which you're thinking is "but there's friendly survivors that will willingly give up a death for a poor performing Nurse". I find that the volume of that is significantly lower than the latter.
Nothing is ever 100%, yes a good team can win against a good nurse, and vice versa - but statistically the evidence of imbalance is the number of occurrences against survival team win rate vs killer win rate/kill rate.
If the ideal goal is to have a 50% survival rate across all killers; which imo is 2 kills / 2 escapes; then there is statistically a gap and a bias for killers (ALL) today.
TLDR; the mechanics of nurse today eliminates the majority of mechanical options a survivor has to survive. The maximum skill ceiling options a survivor has available to them to survive against the maximum skill ceiling of a nurse is arguably 1-2 step difference. The best of the best survivors vs the best of the best nurse, my money is on nurse 9/10 times in the current patch or state of the game. This has a trickle down effect which i will illustrate below.
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Bad Nurse is equal to Bad Survivors
Average Survivors is greater than Bad Nurse
Average Nurse is greater than Average Survivors
Above Average Survivors is greater than Average Nurse
Pro Nurse is greater than an Above Average Survivors
Pro Nurse is greater than Pro Survivors (Shown Statistically)
The balancing act that needs to happen is to limit the ceiling on nurse so it can even out across all skill levels.
Remember this is a game about quite metaphorically... Shooting/Killing Fish in a Barrel. You are hunting humans that have no ability to physically stop you short of hiding, running, or dropping pallet a freaking pallet. If the intention or goal of BHVR for this game was to ALWAYS BE BIASED towards killers, then BHVR should make that very clear.
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Low MMR survivors and Low MMR Killers in general are not valid scopes of how the game is balanced. 1 because smurfs exist, and 2 because Never touched X character low MMR exists. A new player with low MMR is not the same as a seasoned vet who plays the other side but decided 1 day to pick up the other side. The seasoned vet even without touching the other side will steam roll. Just due to mechanical and game knowledge alone, plus the fact that this games controls are stupid simple save a few characters who have muscle memory gaps (aka Nurse, AKA Blight, AKA Hillbilly, AKA Oni)
When you get out of that low MMR range the real scope of whats balanced and not balanced comes into play by also counting your own personal strengths and weaknesses when judging. Assuming a Flat level of personal skill, reaction time, mental planning and acuity going up against an equally skilled person with the same flat level of personal skill nurse goes from God Tier, to, "Good" vs other people with higher personal skill she goes from "Good" to "Average". Then step back for scope, and measure these same things against other killers who aren't at the top 5% (because they literally mechanically cannot be) and the real problems show up in 3 categories that control this entire game for killers. And of those 3 categories only 2 of them can determine the swing of a match due to (((TIME))) time being the most important stat in this game.
- Lethality-(1 shots, skill re-use, downing ability)
- Mobility-(teleports, sprints, dashes etc)
- Objectives-(traps, AI beasts, puzzles, forced cleansing etc, stalling etc)
Nurse has high mobility, normal lethality, 0 objectives
Pig Normal Mobility, normal lethality, high objectives
Hag Normal Mobility, Normal Lethality, High Objectives
Oni High Mobility, High Lethality, 0 Objectives.
^ Go down the line with every killer under those same categories(since survivors are all just skins), and you'll actually find that Nurse is weak in comparison to the rest of the roster with 1 caveat.
Caveat being (Survivor players usually do not know how to handle any killer without holding W and aiming for a pallet or a window vault.) both of which do not work against a nurse nor any other high mobility killer tbh because mobility cuts chase time in half. This cuts out at least 60% of the player base due to lack of personal skill alone.
That means 60% do not know how to run a flashlight, do not know how to double back, juke, rush objectives, stay hidden, nor look behind them.
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If the devs want to make a pure 50/50 they're gonna have to remake the entire game due to player pools. SWF skews numbers to incredibly high results for survivors even if survivors aren't actually that strong. (Technically they aren't that strong.....if they're alone) I'm not gonna go on a rant about SWF because its obvious, I'll just say....People go as far as to pay to join an SWF group to get their account carried...nuff said..speaks for itself. And anybody who plays any kind of competitive game knows if you're not using coms, you're not trying to win...period.
They would have to change mobility in this entire game, change average time per match, overhaul solo queues to the point where you can no longer technically be truly solo. That means coms open all the time including typing. With that shift, they'd then have to go back, revert a bunch of nerfs to killers who weren't performing that well to begin with. Change gen stalling completely, and re-work like...80% of the killer roster who isn't based on mobility to skew them high enough to make up for the difference. Plus change pretty much every single information perk in the game. On top of granting an MMR system that considers experience and time, so people can't smurf all the damn time.
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