I can't believe that killers have to waste a perk slot for breaking boon totems

Options

Boon here, boon there, boon every ######### where. Killers have no choice but to use Shattered Hope (or other perks like Hex: Thrill of the Hunt) to fight against Boon spam. This becomes even more detrimental against schmuck SWF sweat squads. Isn't it just better to give killers two choices? Either 1. break the boon totem or 2. cleanse the boon totem to a dull totem.

I actually start to feel bad. I might start using a cleansing totem build as survivor out of pity.

«1

Comments

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,264
    Options

    It's a bummer, especially since in most of my matches I get about three boons at once (shadow step can be such a pain sometimes).

    On the plus side, I often play just for fun and I've put that perk in my build. So far it has taken the now almost-perk-less survivors by surprise.

    Mix that with Franklin and laugh.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531
    Options

    We’d need to buff the other 3 boons to compensate for 1 use totems. Otherwise exponential and dark theory would be a waste of time

  • dspaceman20
    dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,699
    Options

    Most boons are not strong enough to warrant this change.

    Imo I think the issue of boons and hexs in general is totem rng and not the boon or hex itself

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,003
    Options

    CoH definitely is. The rest, definitely not.

    You'd have to bring the others up to that level, where they could be worth using on their own and not just "well I've got CoH I may as well use another boon as well."

    Shadowstep already offers complete stealth, I suppose it could hide pools of blood and grunts of pain too?

    Exponential could offer increased movement and recovery speed while dying.

    Dark Theory could potentially gain an additional 2% movement speed but anything more could be too OP.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    edited November 2022
    Options

    Thats why CoH needs more restrictions to bring it down to the level of the other boons, instead of just numbers adjustments followed by a hard shrug.

    Half the reason CoH is so strong in the first place ties in with the fact that boons aren't permanently breakable: CoH gets maximum value when placed as far away from the killer (and their pressure, like gens) as possible.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,003
    Options

    Maybe it could come with say 4 charges. Each health state recovered across all survors uses a token, then you need to rebless another totem to reset them.

  • DwightDwigt
    DwightDwigt Member Posts: 68
    Options

    "Isn't it just better to give killers two choices? Either 1. break the boon totem or 2. cleanse the boon totem to a dull totem."


    Yep.

    This is a no-brainer fix.

    Naturally, it's unlikely to happen.

    In this instance, more gameplay decisions/options = more compelling gameplay.

    Killers would have to decide on the fly whether to snuff or cleanse, which would be impacted by their strategy/perks: NOED, Plaything, Devour Hope, Pentimento, etc, etc.

    This option allows for much more interesting gameplay than -snuff all or -cleanse all.

    It would give Killers more agency and choices.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    Options

    While not necessarily a bad idea, it wouldn't address the core issue of CoH as an outlier to other boons, nor would it provide enough impact to offset the power of perkless healing for all team members. It needs to have some type of distance/proximity related restriction, like requiring being in the TR (or even requiring an unfinished gen very close by.) Barring that, it needs to have information about its usage, like revealing your aura while healing. Certainly both would be a terrible idea, but they're examples of the kind of thinking that would need to go into keeping CoH in line with the others like shadowstep or dark theory. Primarily it needs to have some requirement of being placed in a pressure-oriented location to get value, or it needs to have a downside that is beneficial to the killer if allowed to remain in far corners of the map.

  • dspaceman20
    dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,699
    Options

    If you bring down circle of healing to all the other boons then what would be the point in taking any boon? If Exponential, Dark Theory and Shadowstep are all niche and/or bad I don't think make COH niche and/or bad is a good idea. At that point no one would use boons

    I think the best course of action is to buff all boons to current level of circle of healing then nerf the boon mechanic as a whole to make them more high risk.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    Options

    The reason those boons are considered niche is because they require risk to get value from them, which is supposed to be an entire point of the boon mechanic. They are still much less risky than Hexes, which keep getting nerfed and are similarly pretty much useless (and even require a suplimentary perk to have decent odds of surviving long enough to have any impact.) The entire boon mechanic is very poorly implimented as it is, but supercharging bad boons to meet up with the ones that break game design and nullify playstyles is not a very healthy direction to take them, especially considering how much more important time management and map pressure are for the killer than survivors.

    Your boon being permanently snuffed isnt even that much of a risk when you have up to 4 more you can relight it on. Map pressure revolves around remaining objectives, and "pressure dead zones" naturally form with every gen completed. All it takes is boons being placed in said areas and the killer needs to directly give up any time involved finding the boon, walking to the boon, snuffing it, then walking back to their pressure they had to give up in order to take that action. The only way that can possibly be balanced is by having the boons require proximity to reduce the amount of time wasted in each of those steps.

  • Blizwise
    Blizwise Member Posts: 69
    Options

    Boons should be once and done, just like for the killer. Killers sees a boom that totem is done for good.

  • dspaceman20
    dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,699
    Options

    The point of the boon mechanic isn't to provide a risk to her value from them. The devs never claimed that. The point of boons is to provide a safe beneficial area to the survivors, no where is there supposed to be a risk that's why they are able to be put up multiple times. And even of they were the risk you take is to great in order for the survivor to get use out if it. Exponential and Dark Theory are perfect examples of boons that have too great of a risk with little chance of getting the benefits without a ton of set up time like bringing a map offering or something. Also we should not talk about hexs and compare them to boons considering that they play very differently and that most hexs are stronger then most boons.

    Boons being permanently snuffed out would probably be ok of we were talking about circle of healing only but like I said before the set up for that would make the other boons not viable to use at all. Your ignoring the other boons and only focusing on circle of healing.

    To solve the issue with boons your probably going to have to look at totem in general. Or buff all the boons to a good degree then nerf the whole mechanic to compensate.

  • Taxman232
    Taxman232 Member Posts: 139
    edited November 2022
    Options

    Boons take 30seconds to set up and 2seconds for a killer to break. Be more mindful of your environment/surroundings and rage less my dudes.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,437
    Options

    Not with exponential. That perk has one use and it's to prevent end game slugging, that is the only time I have seen value from it and when it get's value it will carry the game. The issue is you don't have time to go snuff depending on location so you get to this lose lose situation. Expo does not need a buff it's already strong enough when it gets it's ideal situation.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    Options

    The point of boons is to provide a safe beneficial area to the survivors, no where is there supposed to be a risk that's why they are able to be put up multiple times.

    And yet every single other boon requires the killer nearby to get value from it. The only real exception is exponential, which has equal value/risk relativity depending on what the intended outcome of its usage is (more than the obvious "getting up" part itself.) You can make whatever arguments you want about what the devs intended the mechanic to be, but youre going to have to wash those down with how hilariously busted the oversights from even the ptb with the mechanic were. Remember when they could overlap and stack? They still haven't even addressed their effective range being considerably larger on multi-floor maps.

    If you don't want to compare hexes and boons, they shouldn't have so many similarities. Their differences almost all literally involve boons being similar but less restrictive, which is why the comparison gets made. Most of the differences between boons and hexes are QoL changes that killers have been begging for hexes to get over the years, like being able to relight them. Its an inevitable comparison when it feels like those ideas got lifted wholesale "to make them different."

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    edited November 2022
    Options

    And how long does it take to drop the chase you're in, walk around whatever pathing is required to reach the location of the boon while navigating on a combination of listening for it and knowing totem locations, snuffing it, then running back to whatever you were doing? It would be an awful shame if people could be working on gens or otherwise completely destroying your map pressure during that time.

    Time is extremely relevant in this game.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,751
    Options

    I can.

    There's a ton of indifference to killer's wasted time during matches, or the insignificance of their choices. "Just snuff the boon" but then they relight it again, but if you don't then they just benefit from it for free.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,751
    Options
  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,751
    Options

    How? If the killer doesn't want you to keep benefitting from those perks, they have to snuff it. But if they do that's a time waste because it goes back up again somewhere else. Killer doesn't have enough time even with these proposed buffs to snuff 5 boon totems.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    Options

    I mean most of them are too risky/niche/situational to be considered strong, its mostly just CoH that stands alone with minimal restrictions on its usage/value while providing a full on meta effect to multiple survivors with near-zero risk. Personally I think perks like shadowstep are perfectly fine, as the killer will have to be near the boon to be impacted by it, and thus already in range to snuff it with minimal forced time commitment.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,642
    Options

    This. This is what I've been saying for a while: the current boon system as it is is just not sustainable. CoH is too strong, but if it's nerfed to the level of the other boons, almost no one will use boons anymore.

    It was similar with scourge hooks. We never saw them when they were brand new, because Gift of Pain in its original state was too weak (with pre-buff Hemorrhage and only 9% action speed penalty). Then we got Pain Resonance and suddenly they became popular.

    The other boons besides CoH should be buffed and then the boon mechanic as a whole needs some adjustments so killers can deal with them more effectively in one way or another.

  • Taxman232
    Taxman232 Member Posts: 139
    Options

    Dont drop chase, finish that and then progress back to the boon when you have the time and it does not compromise your game to head back to that area 👌

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    edited November 2022
    Options

    Cool, multiple people fully healed in the time you did that, which undid your progress in injuring them. You also now have futher to travel to snuff said boon, and are giving up more pressure to do so, including the outcome of the chase you finished instead of breaking off.

    This is why CoH stands out as such a problem, its value is extremely high, but it also has full value when the killer is nowhere near it. You generally have to just accept that its going to be a safe area of the map for survivors to undo your progress for free, which just promotes camping and tunneling.

  • dspaceman20
    dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,699
    Options

    No not every single other boon require for thr killer to be near it to be useful. Even Exponential doesn't need to have the killer be in the boon range in order to get the effect. The only perk you could argue for this is dark theory and we all know how bad this perk is. Yes I do understand how overpowered they were in the ptb. Thankfully they don't stack anymore and the issue with it working on all floors can be fixed when you rework booms as a whole.

    Boons and hexes have enough differences that they should be considered to different.

  • dspaceman20
    dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,699
    Options

    Thank you someone understands.

    I hate this simple idea of " oh just make it do that the totem can break if the boom is snuffed" it's so clear it's not well thought out

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531
    edited November 2022
    Options

    But the problem is the effects are too weak to warrant the risk. Exponential and especially shadow step don’t do enough to warrant being a 1 time use. Hell even shadow step is super niche

  • Taxman232
    Taxman232 Member Posts: 139
    Options

    Make a judgement call based on the circumstances of the game my dude. If you break chase then you have injured survivors who need to reset and re-boon and the chased survivor is off the gen they were presumably working on. If not you have chased a survivor off a gen with a potential down. Both good options.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,751
    Options

    I don't think so. Many many times survivors have benefited from a boon I never heard. You do have to look for it a lot of the time, and that wastes even more time. It's just not worth it, but then they get a free boon. Boons are inherently lose-lose for the killer. And I don't think Exponential or Dark Theory are bad either. Exponential is Unbreakable for everyone. Dark Theory might not seem like much against 115% killers, but it absolutely cripples 110% killers, because they already can't really chase.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    edited November 2022
    Options

    I already said expontential varies depending on its usage, which again, is more than just standing up. The timing and placement can be important, and people can use it to stand up at times specifically where the killer relies on them not being able to, such as picking up another survivor at a pallet or if the downed survivor has a flashlight/flashbang. It has just as much impactful use when close to the killer as it does when away from the killer, which is why its a bit of an outlier in that regard. Besides, unless you crawled all the way across the map you would have had to have gotten downed near it in the first place, which means the killer would have been nearby.

    And again, the differences between boons and hexes are specifically the QoL changes people have been asking hexes to receive. They are the safer version but also can be replenished and yet cannot be permanently removed without investing 1/4th of your loadout into it, while the exact opposite is true for hexes. They are different but that is exactly the problem, the rules feel "bent" for boons by comparison.

    My point was that "it only takes 2 seconds bro" isn't a valid argument against the fact that it forces a lose/lose scenario where the killer needs to decide which loss will hurt them more. Again, I have no issue with boons that require the killer being nearby to have any impact because the time lost in this lose/lose is then guaranteed to be minimal (barring the fact that boons affect multiple floors, which is a design oversight they refuse to address.) Those still maintain a lose/lose scenario, but the loss has a much lower baseline making it relatively comparible to the time investment that went into booning.

    I understand all too well the time investment factor, and was even literally advocating it to someone just above, as well as providing reasoning regarding why CoH is an outlier in that regard. The only boon i think is underpowered entirely is dark theory, but its effect is just bad in the first place and will either be underpowered or absolutely busted due to the range of movement speeds between killers and their varying degrees of anti-loop potential.

  • sulaiman
    sulaiman Member Posts: 3,215
    Options

    I am not sure that would be a good idea. No clue for finding them, and breaking takes 16 seconds. I am not sure if thats a scenario i want as a killer.

  • scenicpickle
    scenicpickle Member Posts: 265
    Options

    personally i think boon breaking should be baseline and shatterhope should expose everyone in radius when broken

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,751
    Options

    But it's not 1-time use. As long as there's a totem up, it can be placed down again. And the killer doesn't have time to snuff 5 totems, let alone 3. Also, Shadowstep is so not niche! It's the most broken one outside of CoH. Infinite Distortion and Dance With Me, man!

  • BrightWolf
    BrightWolf Member Posts: 402
    Options

    It's pretty annoying, ngl at my MMR (low-mid) coming across boons, let alone people knowing how and when to use them is a pretty rare occurrence that I don't find the need to equip Shattered Hope every game. But when I do come across players with boons usually when I'm matched against SWF: Seal Team Six or even High MMR players (how I even got matched there in the first place, I'll never know) is when I find myself wishing I had brought it.

    It makes me wish that at least parts of SH could become basekit for Killers, like it doesn't have to destroy the totem, but it can just snuff them back into dull totems and put a timer on them for idk 60s or something so they can't be immediately rebooned or something. I also think there should only be allowed one boon perk per lobby, E.G only one survivor can bring CoH but idk how that would even be possible to police let alone implement.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,263
    Options

    boons are borderline the new selfcare tbh i wonder how many matches have been lost because people do nothing but boon for half of it

  • Malkhrim
    Malkhrim Member Posts: 935
    edited November 2022
    Options

    Funny enough, a similar thing already happened to Hexes. Ruin was the only largely used Hex perk, then it got nerfed and Hex perks became extremely rare, since having a chance to lose your perk at the first 30 seconds of a match makes it not worth when compared to many better perk options. Of course, another reason this happened is that survivors are memorizing more totem locations and looking for them earlier due to Boons.

    The difference is that Hex perks at least have a chance of having some value and can fit specific builds. Pentimento and Plaything are also pretty good for working differently from other hex perks. The other Boons beside CoH can be useful, yes, but they are too situational regardless of build.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266
    Options

    Expo needs you to down in Boon range to take effect, so unless you're vs range Killers which they will be outside Boon range. But usually those killer will instantly pick you up because faster cooldown than weapon whip.

    Plus it will need another survivor running around you with flash light that able to hold for 15sec.


    Other 3 Boons dont need buff on strength, but buff on range. Except buffing range means buffing Coh.

  • AcelynnBen
    AcelynnBen Member Posts: 1,012
    Options

    fair and balanced

    what's that? survivors spawned on the top of your hexes and u aren't nurse well RIP i guess

    oh look 3 circle of healings and you cannot anything about them because you ain't got no time and whatchu look at that they stack with medkits, well good luck snuffing them out but we made shattered hope, i wonder what's the usage rate, oh wait.

  • Canas
    Canas Member Posts: 1,021
    Options

    CoH is still absolutely broken, they seriously need to make Shattered Hope basekit (without the aura-reading part) and rework the perk itself into showing the auras of all boon totems on the map to make it a worthwile pick afterwards.

  • deckyr
    deckyr Member Posts: 752
    Options

    make it so that all the boons a survivor has placed gets snuffed automatically when they get hooked

    one thing that drives me crazy is the fact that i have to kill the survivor to remove their boon. everyone else gets maximum value from circle of healing for as long as i'm locked in chase. a 1/4 chance at minimum, or more with the proper information, to snuff the boon automatically as soon as my chase ends would be great.

    and if i'm using shattered hope, the totem breaks instead of snuffing.

  • MisterMister
    MisterMister Member Posts: 278
    Options

    I wish the guards of the Knight could also close hatch

  • MisterMister
    MisterMister Member Posts: 278
    edited November 2022
    Options

    Think of the detriment to solo Q though. Granted in a SWF you have others looking for totems to boon, and can call it out when found, but totems aren’t always in the same spots with random map generation, and when I play solo Q I can spend two minutes just trying to find a freaking totem, then all that time blessing the stupid thing just to watch an injured random bring the killer right to it. It seems like everytime a killer gets stomped by a SWF they cry nerfs! When I face a SWF, I expect to lose, but I try and have fun doing it.

  • Nathan13
    Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,642
    Options

    Sometimes I don’t even bother to snuff it cause it can be a waste of time.

  • Adaez
    Adaez Member Posts: 1,239
    edited November 2022
    Options

    shattered hope is a bad choice to use,because there are games where its an useless perk

    They need to make it so after snuffing a boon,the survivor has a cooldown until they can boon again.

    So many times I snuff a boon,and its instantly back,what is this?

    Or just make it so after you snuff out a boon,the second time you do it break the totem

    exponential,circle of healing,shadowstep

    I agree,survivors should only be able to boon a hex or dull totem once,so you can boon a maximum of 5 times but different totems.

  • dspaceman20
    dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,699
    Options

    Yeah but the killer technically doesn't need to be in the boon range for it fo work like if the kill slugs you and you mange to get to the area. Although that is extremely unlikely and the way to get more use out of it is also pretty niche that it's not a very good perk.

    I'm not sure if buffing the range is good enough. They will still be high risk little reward even if you buff the range