why is genrushing being buffed
did nobody noticed that 3 major perks that countered genrushing got gutted
SH:PR nerfed
H:R gutted
Noed which punished genrushing got nerfed as well
and now eruption needs a nerf apparently
every survivor wants to just start the game, sit on a gen, finish it and go next, and escape, anything that involves something interrupting their fun time of holding m1 is apparently illegal, and the best part you are not even getting a pip.....
but survivor perks were nerfed as well....looks at DH usage vs ruin the only perk i don't see anymore is barrowed time because its core now, so not sure what kinda of NERF are we talking about here
and this is more supported by the fact that any killer or someone who plays both sides, says that a survivor perk is too powerful and get made fun of, while you see someone complain about some killer perk that just rose up from being underrated and low behold everyone thinks its broken and everyone supports its nerf
do you ever see someone complain about franklin's or STBFL, no? well they don't effect gens
they are not broken, sure you could say that until you play against a STBFL slinger then you will see how broken it is
yes soloQ is hard but playing low tier killer is harder, and here is a fun fact, survivors do have options of changing their loadout and most likely getting out, most killers don't, either 4 gen regression or 4 man escape with toxicity on the top of it
now watch people ask for a jolt nerf after eruption gets nerfed eventually
Comments
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Ruin fell out of favor because there are better alternatives.
DH did not fall out of favor because there are no better alternatives.
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DH is even stronger now and still has the moments where it's uncounterable, but it's not as brain dead easy to use it anymore
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I have to wonder if people actually enjoy this game or if they just find enjoyment in getting upset over everything.
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Not even close of being stronger than before. the EEEEEEEE for distance was a thing and that had 0,00000 counterplay.
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I disagree. I think getting Dead Harded now is way more punishing than before. It basically feels like an auto loss if Dead Hard procs now. I mean old Dead Hard was bad too but not that bad
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It also didn't give an on hit burst before, which can make it situationally stronger.
it had both skill floor and skill ceiling adjustment. Whether that makes it stronger or weaker is a bit subjective.
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You don't think yeeting itself out of existence if it lasts long enough to see one kill had anything to do with that? I get the idea behind the change as a way to discourage tunneling, but its still a hex perk. It doesn't have any guaranteed value whatsoever, and its limitation discourages undying as an insurance perk for it.
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im sorry am i missing something?
is there another hex perk that regresses gens automatically?
DH alternatives are literally any addons or perks that give endurance but alright
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its not braindead to use in the open yes but near pallets its still dumb
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Yep, I often find myself just far enough from the pallet where I have to lunge and they just dead hard or I respect it and eat a pallet. Baiting it out in this moment results in eating a pallet even if the survivor doesn't have DH. Baiting out DH constantly is the most unfun mechanic in the entire game
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gutted?
nuh uh
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So... nerfing Gen regression perks is buffing Gen rush???
And what about Corrupt, DMS, Thrilling Tremors and Deadlock???
Dying Light and Thanatophobia???
It's more like Survivors realizing that they are more efficient on Gens rather then completing a Gen then taking a lap around the map... so on and so forth
So no matter what happens with regression perks... it's more like 4V1 being the game
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Corrupt deactivates as soon as someone is downed now. It's useless on a lot of killers imo. Hag and Trapper get the most value out of it still and that's if they commit to set up before hunting survivors. Thana was nerfed hard as to get its main value, all 4 survivors have to be injured at the same time. People heal too fast to get that kind of value. Dying Light is pretty much required with Thana now for stacked value, but with the downside of the obsession having faster unhooking and healing speeds. Thrilling is only for 16 seconds, so pretty much the time it takes to hook someone and walk to the gen being worked on, unless of course you're running DMS and PR with it. Obviously, synergy builds are the way to go with all of these perks and survivors hate killer synergy builds like DMS, Eruption, PR, and Thrilling. But some killers don't like dedicating an entire build to counter something, just like some survivors don't like equipping certain perks to counter killer perks, which is why basekit perks are now a thing.
Say what you will about killers getting basekit perks, but the value changes made to base killer stats were a QoL change to be fair and the flashlight immunity at lockers isn't even Diet Lightborn, more like Lightborn Zero. Very small window, but big enough to counter a tactic that wasn't all that common until the change was announced and survivors attempted locker saves from the announcement until last week.
And no, I'm not saying killers should get basekit perks. I don't think any perk should be basekit, although I see the need for basekit BT, although didn't agree with it being the full on perk, which can be doubled if someone is running BT.
With so much synergy on the survivor side regarding gen repair and healing speeds,
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people really like forgetting that gen time has been increased by 10 seconds huh
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Bhvr: "Why yes gens are going too fast at 80 seconds, also here's a perk that lets you do them in 45 seconds solo".
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The difference being that the survivor meta is whatever is the most broken, because for killer it's whatever is the least weak.
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That's just hilariously biased holy #########
BOTH sides use whatever perks are the strongest at the current time.
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good strawman lol
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It is with a little luck. Spin into the killer once, they wait, spin into them a second time, they wait, DH all of a sudden, guaranteed killer time waste even if it fails or you don't even have it.
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Is it not true you can do a gen in 45 seconds with a toolbox and hyperfocus + stakeout? You don't even need stakeout if you can hit greats on your own, stakeout makes it so anyone can do it even if you're awful with greats.
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The survivor meta are perks that keep them in the match as long as possible
The killer meta are perks that keep them in the match as long as possible
They aren't so different you know
Besides, both sides abuse broken stuff. They always have, and probably always will because people want to win.
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This clip describes this cycle perfectly: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxvpGrZYdxHLr_piz2x9LYuLXcnlQ7vRVu
For the most part I agree with you, but then the random "STBFL is OP on Deathslinger." It was strong, not broken, but that was before his nerf, because now his zoom-in is much too slow for the quick time to down which that build aimed for. And killer can get 4-man escaped against even with gen defense. People will totally ask for a Jolt nerf though. "It's just like Eruption but no cooldown!" is the excuse I'm expecting.
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thats not really true sb is wayy better then dh its just that dh is the only interactive exhaustion perk its simply the most fun to use while also being strong dont get me wrong
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Still strawmaning
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I wouldn't call this a perfect description of anything tbh.
I respect Tru3's opinion as he's entitled to it the same as anyone but he often makes broad generalisations that have some truth to them but it's not 100% of the picture. I'm pretty sure he even admits that what he says is based mostly on his own experiences and what he's seen which isn't always completely accurate to how things are overall.
Again both roles complain about the strong stuff each side has, there's no "cycle". People who play this game aren't a hivemind
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The nine most used killer perks got gutted.
The 3rd through 6th most used survivor perks got gutted.
The 2nd most used survivor perk got massively buffed
The 1st most used survivor perk got changed in a way that makes it do the exact same thing it used to, but now gives an even better result if you use it properly, meaning a net buff overall.
But you will never not have survivors whining about how all their perks have suddenly become totally useless and they need to revert the changes on the four bad ones and how killer perks need to be nerfed across the board and so on and so on.
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I know that, but the perspective and why they're doing it is completely different. Look at this clip in this comment below and see if you understand the trend being explained.
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Ah yes, the famous weak combination of old Ruin Undying Tinkerer Deadlock on Nurse, the infamously weak killer, using her notoriously poor addons of old range when it increased blink speed.
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I don't take pretty much anything they say seriously, I got better than them a long time ago.
Camping and tunneling is easy. Sitting on gens is easy. People will always go for the easiest path to victory.
There is literally nothing easier than kicking a gen and getting value. Not everything is against Killers. This isn't some sort of tactical scheme from Survivors. Take off the glasses and join the realists.
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There's a very big difference. The killer's gen defence perks are mostly based on people getting injured, downed, hooked, and kicking gens. The survivor's perks are activated by, what, being injured, vaulting a window, getting off hook which was their fault in the first place. Survivor second chance perks are way more forgiving and simple to execute. They also trump the killer's slowdown, and not the other way around like most people like to believe. What's the top killer perks people complain about? Eruption, Pain Res, Pop even. But they all require a down, so how's the killer gonna get the slowdown from the perk if they're barely downing people because of second chances? They just don't, unless it's against bad survivors who can't give a single 20s+ chase. You can't even use gen defence once they're all done, so that's another crucial way they're different from survivor second chance perks. The devs are only now equalizing that.
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don't say that you'll disrupt the narrative!
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I like how you intentionally ignore Deadlock in your comparison
A perk that you bring and have to do nothing for it to work. Like, you could go AFK and not pressure survivors at all and deadlock will still go off and prolong the match.
People are complaining about Eruption because the counterplay to it, is virtually nonexistant. Pain res I don't see anyone complaining about personally and pop is probably the weakest gen regression perk in the game now compared to the others
There is nuance to people's complaints, unlike what that clip you posted would make you believe. It's not just "wah this perk lets killers win so nerf it its bad", Eruption is a problematic perk for a few reasons but if you ask me - it's what I said previously; minimal counterplay/removal of player agency.
Obviously, that applies both ways - people's complaints about surv perks have nuance to them too. I'm not saying otherwise.
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But there is truth in what he's saying and there are trends with what people do. Before Deathslinger's nerf (when he was S tier, I've heard), I didn't have to camp and tunnel. I could just put on STBFL, or to play it safe 4 gen defence perks, simply go for chases and usually get good results. Now I don't play him because of the nerf. But that's just 1 killer; we're talking about killer perks, which affect every killer. With old Ruin, I could go for more chases. Same with pre-nerf Ruin/Undying, Tinkerer, Pop, Pain Res, etc. All nerfed, and now I'm having to tunnel or else I don't get A kill a lot of the time. Maybe Tru3 and I's experiences aren't the same as others', but we're at high level which the game should be balanced off of, because that's where the most skill is. Problem is there's little to no expression of that skill because of the forced outcome of "tunnel or 2k."
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Honestly, do y'all ever think about average killer strength without making Nurse the forefront? It's pretty typical and easy for y'all to ignore the existence of Clown, Freddy, Ghost Face, etc. Why not do the same for Nurse every now and then? Just a thought.
I don't think any killer is arguing that combo isn't strong. Nurse's range add-ons should not have doubled as charged time add-ons, as Otz had to point out for months or years until it got nerfed. But what's wrong with Deadlock or Tinkerer? Tinkerer's nerf especially was complete BS. After Undying AND Ruin was nerfed, Tinkerer should have been fine activating multiple times. We're seeing history repeat itself with CoB/Overcharge/Eruption, where the 1 perk Eruption is the "problematic perk", but we're also calling for nerfs to the other perks in the combo as well? Makes no sense.
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What's the metric for killer strength though
How many hooks they can get and still win? How many kills they can get? How long it takes for them to down someone?
Killrates seem to show majority of the roster getting more than a 2k on average.
Trapper, the worst killer in the game has a 56% killrate in the top 5% of MMR Which I guess you could equate to "high level" (Personally, I have no idea if that's what it means)
Obviously, stats aren't everything and you cannot draw concrete conclusions from them of course but what does this mean? Does this mean that Killer isn't so hard if you're willing to play a certain way/use certain perks and so on?
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It has the exact same counterplay as Eruption, AND it has no regression. You go do a different gen while yours is blocked, you work on it again when it's unblocked. Have the whole team be smart enough to do that, and suddenly you're doing gens left and right because you already had progress on others while the almost-finished one was blocked. Or, since survivors have enough time, you can literally wait out the 30 seconds, like you would Eruption. Doesn't matter that you don't do work for it, because you're the killer, and it simply delays the inevitable of all the gens getting done. You also can't kick or Pain Res with it while it's blocking a gen.
Trust me, every gen slowdown perk under the sun is complained about, because the casuals are very loud and great in number. They say Pain Res is still broken, and Pop is "fine" knocking off 5% of a gen.
You can talk about nuance all you want, but the truth is that killers regularly lose from winning nonstop in chase. Survivors can be bad in chase/good on gens, bad on gens/good in chase, or medicore in both and still win. What did the killer do to deserve that outcome? Took A 20-second chase, maybe didn't bring 3-4 gen defence perks, or maybe had to break too many pallets which had no mindgame. I'd love to go back to being neutral, you have no idea. But the game balance and the trends I've seen just won't allow me.
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Ya know survivor's have to get to the exit and say they wonnn with little to no skill,only time management.If their so good at time management why not slow gen speeds. I literally ran 3 to 4 slow down perks playing as Michael Myers.It was as if it didn't have any effect and I'm not a bad killer.
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Those high caliber survivors they can end the game when they want.
Proof your ever face a good team and when you chase the best looper on said team,you down them and the last gen pops 🤯
So their in control. Why does the game cater to casual and then you have to face really good teams with nerfed equipment.On another note you can win all the time as killer by knowing your strength and weaknesses and running perks toward those
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ruin definitely was, they not only halved the regression speed but also made it snuff itself when someone dies, which was not even necessary since it's generally cleansed by that point anyway.
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you rarely see people using most of those perks tho, lol
thana is only good on a few killers, I can't think of a time I've ever even seen someone use Dying Light in years, Corrupt is mostly only good on a few killers (which don't really see play, and therefore corrupt doesn't see play), and tremors/deadlock/DMS aren't even regression (neither is Corrupt, but yeah)
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There isn't one. You can't quantify survivor strength either. You just have to use your experience and what the game looks like at high level. Most stats released are absolutely useless and misleading. I keep hearing "killer has a 61% win rate!" Wow, because killing just over 2 survivors on average is really strong or something. And even then that's inflated because you know it's focusing on all levels, not just high level, so there's a million games in there were the survivors were awful or there were DCs. If it was focusing on high level, not only would you see how many killers are barely played there, you'd see them have a 40% win rate tops, because they can't do anything vs people who know what they're doing.
Certain perks and playstyles do elevate your win rate with killer. A while back, especially before MMR, I considered Demogorgon like a top 5 killer. He had to have Black Heart/Barbs Glasses (for shred to be worth), and Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out/NOED (because those are near enough the only slowdown for killer that's guaranteed), as well as focusing 1-2 people down only, and not playing on crap maps like The Game or ones that had few linear tiles. But he was working out for me very well, surprisingly. Then, as soon as MMR dropped and I was very high with him, I got 3-4 man losses with him like 4/5 games, because he can't do much vs people who know how to play.
Engineer's Fang/Hoarder Pinhead, on top of being the most fun/unique killer build in the game's history, was a build that pushed Pinhead to being a top 4 killer. If you had 1 thing go wrong at top MMR, like miss a possessed chain which was supposed to stop them from solving the box or couldn't get a down on the box holder very quickly, you lost everything very quickly. But if you played really well and made few or no mistakes, you could actually win consistently. Then they nerfed Eng Fang because pinks aren't supposed to be strong, nerfed his other decent add-ons including some brown and green add-ons, and narrowly avoided a nerf to Hoarder (yes, people literally asked for this pretty regularly), the build and Pinhead himself were ruined.
So yes, killer isn't so hard if you use a certain build/strategy AND face a manageable caliber of survivors, but as you can see, that's becoming less and less possible each patch.
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My thoughts exactly, it's hell as a ghostface main or any other M1 killer as most of the time in the loop, your only opportunity to actually score a hit is when you win a mind game and come into the very tip of your long-lunge range literally right before the pallet.
Option 1: Execute Maximum Lunge (extremely easy to deadhard). Result - You're screwed.
Option 2: You try to wait out the DH, but they just drop the pallet if you don't swing. Result - You're screwed.
And you can bet there's nothing that saps your will to play the killer side more than when you beat a survivor at the mind game just for them to do nothing but tap a button to a piece of easy timing and execute a momentum-crushing, cheap-shot denial that you can't do anything about.
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if those perks are effective why does nobody used them?
i mean i use thrilling tremors pretty effectively and i can barely get any slowdown out of it, corrupt was nerfed.
nobody uses Dying Light, Thana was reworked into being useless
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a whole 10 seconds NO WAY
a whole 10 damn seconds that everyone overreacted about and then realized its really not that strong of a nerf since toolboxes are as strong as they can be lol
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you know the whole killers using broken stuff is still bothering me, what perks are are so called broken on killer
im seriously interested, the only perk so far according to survivors that is broken is eruption
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You said, and I quote, "The difference being that the survivor meta is whatever is the most broken, because for killer it's whatever is the least weak."
Therefore, you are implying that while the survivor meta was strong, and still is strong, the meta for killer was and still is weak. Therefore, I'm pointing out this argument is flawed in that the meta builds for the meta killers are, in fact, not weak by any means but equally comparable to survivor metas in that they are broken.
You then went on to admit that Nurse was broken, before asking us to think about average killer strength.
Average killer strength was never a part of this discussion.
The conversation was on the topic of the metas- the most powerful things for either side. Meaning Range/Recharge Nurse or Alch/Crow Blight with 4 slowdowns, vs Toolbox squads with boons, Hyperfocus, and pinpoint accurate communication. The topic was never about the strength of Ghost Face, or Trapper, or Sadako, or any killer and killer perks beyond the strongest things imaginable.
I was pointing out the flaw in your argument, that killer meta is the least weak while the survivor meta is the most broken. That is all.
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"both sides abuse broken stuff" isn't necessarily about perks, or just specific perks. In another thread you yourself have admitted that Nurse is broken (which is why you asked me to use any other killer than Nurse and Blight to show why Eruption was so busted).
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"It has the exact same counterplay as Eruption, AND it has no regression. You go do a different gen while yours is blocked, you work on it again when it's unblocked." Just curious, how is 'go do a different gen' the 'exact' counterplay to Eruption?
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Especially when the whole issue with Eruption is that you CANNOT do another gen.
The problem people have with Eruption is that it is uncounterable and too oppressive. If it blocked any gens being actively worked on with regression for x amount of time then fine - but let people go and work on others. Or if they went to keep the incapacitated effect then it needs to be fairer to counter.
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This is just sad to read.
There is Sprint Burst,Lithe,Smash Hit,Balanced Landing,Overcome that are all great exhaustion perks that can easily replace dead hard.
But survivors want to abuse a perk that is clearly broken,saving you from getting down even againts an insta down at the perfect moment.
Its just hilarious reading survivor bias sometimes.
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