The bots showed me just how useless Legion really is
Wow. Just...wow. In the match I just played, the bots displayed just how useless Legion's power really is. The bots all separated so far from Legion that I could never get more than two hits in before the power ended. Now granted I was able to zone them out fairly well and get them down, but as far as getting five consecutive hits was concerned? Forget about it. Had I been facing a decent squad of real players, they would have walked all over me.
There are some killers that can be devastating all on their own, and then there are others that have to rely on strong perks, and unfortunately Legion really does fall into the latter. Personally I think his rework wasn't strong enough.
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Just because a robot is able beat a Killer fairly well, does not mean the Killer needs buff.
Surely Legion performs fine atm?
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Legion does not perform fine what so ever. An M1 killer with a power that can only ignore one health state and not help end chases quick? At least Trapper has basement and Sadako has condemned. Legion have nothing to fall back on.
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Yh the bots act weird. They all split up unless one needs a heal. And they genrush like mad 🤣
Legion is perfectly fine against human players. They make mistakes. And tbh getting a 5 hit combo on legion is pretty rare. You need to entire team pretty close to each other. And for them to be dumb enough to not haul ass away when they see the first deep wound pop up.
I usually get 2/3 hits out of it and thats damn good value multiple injuries quickly. That they will struggle to heal safely and cost them lots o.f time
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If human survivors split on generators and hit their great skill checks it's just as bad.
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Legion's power is not OP but is compensated by being really fun to play.
Stabby stab go brrrr !
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Legion does fine if you're good at chases. He's nowhere near top tier, but he definitely doesn't struggle unless you're against top tier survivors.
Also, most of the killers struggle when the survivors split up.
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Literally noting about his power is fun? HIS WHOLE POWER IS TO HIT YOU AND LEAVE????? Once survivors split up I guarantee you dont find him fun at all.
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I don't know, I main them (and Hag) and I have lots of fun. Legion is very map dependant, I'll give you that.
But I like chaining hits, I like the Pills + Mural combo, I like that they have a lot of cools addons, and I like being able to leave a chase and go straight to another survivor through Killer Instinct if I'm getting looped a bit too well. I can check on everyone on the team, and apply pressure at the same time.
You're running really fast and going from person to person, it might not be your idea of a fun mechanic, but I like it !
So yeah, Legion is not insanely strong, but I find him really fun to play as. Different strokes for different folks =)
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Very true. The bots definitely genrush like crazy! Since they group together fairly often I wanted to see how realistic it was to get five consecutive hits with Legion's power, and I couldn't do that, not even with bots!
I think they were programmed to counter killers as best they can. I've noticed that with killers like Pinhead and Deathslinger, they can juke your ranged attacks fairly well. But an m1 killer like Legion whose power can't even down a survivor goes to show just how weak they really are.
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I've always been of the mindset that you play your game the way you want to play it, and I'll play it the way that I want to play it. If you find Legion to be really fun, then go for it! But I definitely see how their power is both an advantage and a disadvantage. While it's cool being able to run quickly and hit a survivor, the whole point of their power is to run away, and if survivors aren't close enough to being hit, then it makes running away pointless.
Personally I think Legion needs to be running faster. I know that there's that add-on that slows them down to extend the feral frenzy, but I think the base power needs an increase in speed so that they can actually make it to the other survivor. As it is now, they can barely make it halfway across the map before the power ends.
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I do agree that they could either have a basekit longer Frenzy OR run a bit faster when in Frenzy.
That would be a double edged sword, as most things are with Legion, since it would be easier to get juked and snap out of Frenzy, but it would be such nice QoL to be able to make more distance between survivors.
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Yeah and that's all I'm suggesting. Legion has to get five consecutive hits before they can get a single down with their power, so giving base kit feral frenzy a slight buff that would see Legion either running faster or an extended chase wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
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the bots dodging deathslinger's gun is exactly why I hate current deathslinger's balance because good player can do what bots are doing vs deathslinger's gun consistently. its just that so many survivor are so bad that it makes slinger look strong.
Pinhead's anti-loop balance is also abysmal. When he is opening his gateway, he moves at 92% movement speed. So in essence, the survivor hold-W is gaining distance even though your chain power is suppose slow them down. In the words, you can hold-w for like 2-3 seconds and when you predict pinhead's gateway being spawned on top of you, you can backtrack into the gateway so if he instant shots after spawning gateway on top of you, he just misses firing forward. The adaption is to spawn gateway on side, but now you have to hit a survivor wiggling which is making you lose distance because your not moving and then even if you do hit them, your not making much distance in the hold-w metric. At loops, his power is a lot better but its prone to spawning chains in front of you which force you to break your own chains by walking through them and obstacles can instantly break the chains making your hits a null. In summary, high risk mechanic, low reward. At least he has decent generator defence with the box, but his add-on are heavily nerfed.
Legion was always weak to split up. Its just that before his change, he could not punish survivors for grouping up even though he is designed to do that. Now he can punish survivors grouping up but it relies on the survivor poor play to do so. His power still lacks elements of 1vs1 capacity. He also has nothing to force survivors into healing. He would greatly benefit from having lower terror radius so playing injured is more risky.
All 3 killer are pretty mediocre though I would say legion is most fun to play out of 3 of them.
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I've never understood why Pinhead was designed to break his own chains, especially considering he literally phases through windows. 🤦 As far as I know, Pinhead is the only killer that can sandbag their own power.
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Sounds like the humans are the ones acting weird if they're not splitting up against a Legion. :P
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To make matters worse : Legion, Michael and Wesker all just got nerfed by the stealth patch change in 6.4 that makes any killer with a "vault power speed adjustment" unable to benefit from the vault speed granted by Bamboozle, Fire UP or Superior Anatomy.
Trapper can step in his traps and Nemesis zombies get in your way all the time (they could have just been made no clip for him). I'm sure there are more if I stopped and thought about it.
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That vault speed change needs to be reverted. Not sure why they would remove perk-power synergy and remove perk diversity like that. If people have no reason to use other perks due to the lack of synergy, they will just continue use the same meta gen slowdown perks that benefit them all the time.
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No it's worse than that. If the devs nerf the low/middle tier killers they will just eventually only play Blight/Nurse becuase that is the only option when they get to high MMR.
That is the nightmare scenario that survivors don't want but push the game towards.
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The difference with Trapper though is that you're immune to the trap once you set it down, the moment you step away however, everyone is fair game.
And while yes the zombies can get in your way at times as Nemesis, it's not happening every time you use your power, which is the biggest detriment to Pinhead. Unless you purposely avoid the chains, you will always break them as you walk through them.
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I dont know, I only had one game against Bots on the PTB. And they did Gens like crazy, but once they reached 2 Gens, they were so much slower. Really strange.
(I was not really playing seriously, basically just trying to figure out The Knight. But I really noticed that they started super-strong on Gens but then slowed down a lot)
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I've noticed that too. Since custom matches is basically one big testing toy box, I think BHVR altered the bots slightly to ensure that the matches didn't end too quickly. Because yeah, they are REALLY efficient on generators!
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Yeah, makes sense. They are probably designed to stop working on Gens (or at least be slower on them) once a certain amount is done to prolong the game a bit.
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Obviously you never met the Legions i play against - or got as bad survs against him as i get often.
Legion is iiiiiiiiiiiiiincredible annoying and most of the time wins.
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The bots can be painful at times, and in some ways play a lot better than actual players, so it's not an exact estimate for a real trial.
I played PH against them, and the bots could predict 100% of the time when and where I was going to use his ranged power, even when out of LOS for a while. Every. Time. The only time I could hit them with it was when they were locked into an animation of a pallet throw or window vault. They knew how to crouchwalk over his trails like a boss, too. The few times I could get one to actually cross a trail was when at least two bots were in the same place, I'd laid trails all over, and the bots had to both split up and run away in different directions.
Landing Lethal Blinks on some of the bots as a Nurse is torture. I also suck at Nurse, so there's that.
Throwing knives as Trickster or hatchets as Huntress? Some of the bot profiles are master jukers.
Regardless of stealth killer or otherwise, they always start to run when you get moderately close to a gen they're working on.
When bots were added I thought they would be too easy, and granted some of the profiles for them are somewhat noobish, but overall they're surprisingly challenging.
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I noticed that the bots also have a bit of esp going on or at least can easily predict where the killer will come from. I was testing out Ghost Face and the bots pretty much scattered away from me before I could crouch, enter stealth to stalk or be exposed/revealed by survivors. They just instantly knew where I was, similar issue with testing out Sadako, they just knew where I was going to be before I even got there.
it was kind of hilarious and depressing at the same time. XD
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Me who just wants to see playstyle alterations that you can choose from that aren't add-on dependent. It's definitely an idea. That way people can't complain about losing their old killer. Hell, even @GeneralV will jump with joy at the potential of having old freddy back if this mutation idea comes to the game. Even if it's... unlikely. Man, I wish they would try it with a few killers like Legion and Slinger.
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The funny part in all this for me personally is that bots are smarter at countering Legion than the average solo team mate.
I admit I have just quit on hook when my solo team mates insist on working on gens together and healing after every frenzy - you will lose if you constantly heal against Legion and insist on working together. I played a bit of Legion in the past and despite them being weak a lot of solo survivors make these mistakes and pretty much give you free slowdown and pressure.
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Yep, I decided to get some hatchet and knife throwing practice as both Huntress and Trickster against bots and oml they were just quickstepping all over the place like they were doing an old western gun dance. Luckily, because they were bots it was pretty easy to just M1 but the fact I even had to resort to being a ######### M1 killer as Huntress and Trickster was annoying. Doubly annoying because irl wrist issues prevent me from using KM&M when playing on PC, so the lack of proper controller support was strongly felt in that game.
Also pretty much experienced everything that you mentioned as well, I don't mind the challenge but at the same time it's kind of annoying.
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Yeah the bots are definitely far more efficient than I thought they would be, and when the day comes you can equip them with perks, they'll be even more impressive!
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I noticed that as well. When I played ghostface the bots knew where I was almost every time, and would break me out of the cloak. It was frustrating, yet impressive at the same time. It made me play smarter like I would have to against real players.
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The bots also dodge hatchets against Huntress and like with GF they have ESP and can dodge without LOS. It is pretty impressive but then in other ways they can be very stupid as you would expect from bots.
One thing the bots showed me is that so long as you consistently pressure gens as survivor it makes things really hard for most M1 killers with average mobility.
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I think the people who want a Legion "rework" don't really grasp what Legion is supposed to be. Legion is a training-wheels killer. You play Legion for about the first 600 hours of gameplay, then you switch to someone who takes a bit of skill to play. Simple as that.
Legion teaches you how to be an M1 killer and his power has no mastery. That's what his role within DbD. He teaches you how to effectively be an M1 killer and how to mind game tiles as an M1 killer should. His power has virtually no mechanical mastery beyond hitting M2 as soon as you see a full-health survivor. His playstyle is uncomplicated, one dimensional, requires no muscle memory, timing, collision knowledge, etc. He is about as easy to play as Wraith. Legion can borderline play themselves at this point.
Legion will pub-stomp until high MMR. Competent teams will pretty easily outplay you and make your power obsolete. The maps are also big enough that Legion can't really get a good frenzy going half the time. Legion is fairly easily outplayed by competent survivors who split up and pre-drop when they're injured.
I'm fine with where Legion is because a killer that is that easy to play should lose handedly by half-competent teams. No killer should be both easy and able to 4k against excellent survivors on bad maps. That's how you wind up with an overplayed killer. I think of Legion and Bubba in pretty much the same category. Training-wheels killers who help you play killer with a basekit that is a bit too good against newer players, but then is very easily outclassed by survivors who have a good idea of how to play the game. Bubba will absolutely decimate lower MMR games till you run into a group of survivors who understand pre-dropping and splitting up on gens.
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Personally I think all killers (especially those that can be bought with real money) should never be considered a "training wheels" killer. I understand what you're saying, but any killer that is added to the roster should be able to hold their own, and not have to worry about getting completely decimated because they're not strong enough.
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This exactly, you're paying money for these killers. They shouldn't be considered a tutorial killer.
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Yea, but as others have said, that's because humans make mistakes. Legion very much relies on players making mistakes. The bots do what they are programmed to do, so that means... they can be a problem for killers like Legion and Deathslinger.
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Precisely. Legion excels when survivors make mistakes. Bots will never do that, and as such highlights just how weak Legion truly is. I've said before that I don't think it's too much to ask for feral frenzy to be given either increase speed, or a longer duration. After all it takes five consecutive hits before they can get a single down with the power, so I don't think it's asking too much.
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meanwhile all of my matches against bots while just running corrupt are always 4ks ... (playing legion BTW)
bots are better than Solo Q players for the most part and thats a Fact ...... BUT they are waaay more easy to beat since all of them are pretty much easy to mindgame on most tiles + they often get stuck crouching in a corner if the killer is really close to a hooked survivor.
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Legions strongest power is getting people to DC because he is so boring to play against.
FORGOT TO ADD: Try Pinhead against them and try to get an active chainhunt with all 4 bots lmao
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Trying to get a chain hunt against bots was a nightmare when I was trying out Pinhead, just couldn't do it.
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I was amazed too by how well bots counter Legion's FF. As soon as you use it, they all run in different direction. I would get a two stabs at best when I was lucky. xD
But I don't think Legion need change tho, bots have weird insight : they know exactly when FF is active or not, they know exactly when bloodwarden is up or not etc. Even in SWF, people don't have that precise knowledge and have to take guesses. So Legion's FF still works decently against human players.
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I couldn't get a chain hunt to work either. The bots (at least in my match) were designed to start seeking out the box once the bar got halfway full, and even then they would only start working on the box once I had picked up a survivor to hook, which admittedly was pretty impressive. But the only way I able to get a chain hunt going was if I just so happened to knock it out of their hands.
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I just can't wait untill they put bots in place of people who DCed
Even with how easilly mindgame-able they are they are better 50% of solo players
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Exactly, I'm pretty impressed by the programming of the bots to mimic all kinds of playstyles at all MMR levels. As I don't think the mode would be as challenging or work if the bots were easy to bully, like you can with the tutorial killer/survivor bots. But at the same time, it's a little frustrating, since they "know" where stealth killers come from and their esp dodging when they're against Slinger, Trickster or Huntress (can really feel the bad controller support with these killers).
I've also noticed that the last survivor is programmed to beeline straight for the hatch, they know exactly where it spawns and will head to it the moment it's open. I watched the bots do this consistently for ten games.
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I certainly would.
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