Tunneling is sometimes on the survivor
So I play a lot of both survivor and killer however majority of the friends I play with are strict survivor mains and I feel like this concept is sometimes hard to grasp. Sometimes the killer focuses on a survivor without regard to the rest of the game. However the Killers choice is often influenced heavily by the survivors. Below is a clip I did down and hook the Ada very shortly after being unhooked however would suggest that both Ada and Feng were the ones who set it up to be that way.
So heres why I think that the survivors are the ones who set up Ada to be tunneled as opposed to me.
1) I immediately leave the hook, kick a gen proccing oppression letting me know Feng is on the gen ALL the way on the other side of the map and immediately teleport essentially giving clear room for unhook.
2) Feng knows I am behind her and still both leads me to the hook and unhooks.
3) The Ada gets in the way of me and Feng. There was a very brief moment when I tried to go around her but she was following feng so she was in the way.
4) After getting hit, with the mechanic designed to get you to safety, she ignores all resources she could use to be safe. She chooses to run the opposite way as feng as opposed to getting in front of her passing the chase onto her. She also runs straight past an undropped pallet which she know was real because she was awake.
5) Feng "attempt" to take aggro by clicking her flashlight is not taking a chase. She was leagues away from me right next to the strong main building. She did nothing to bait the chase other than be present.
Like I 100% would have continued my chase with the Feng, had it not gotten reset by their actions. Feng wasn't playing altruistically, actually putting herself in danger for Ada, and Ada was greeding resources, Both the pallet and Feng's health state even though she was in deep wound and couldn't dead hard which I knew from our first chase. Had either one not relied solely of the sympathy of the opposing team, Feng would have gotten chased not Ada. Survivors do have some control over getting tunnelled. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
Comments
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Sometimes survivors give you no reasonable choice but to tunnel and get mad for it.
Sometimes killers go far out of their way to tunnel from the very get-go.
People like to make it out like it's all one or the other and I don't get why.
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Ada’s feet had just hit the ground when you hit her the second time. She couldn’t go anywhere. But Feng kind of positioned her to get hit. Not like Ada could do much to avoid you in that situation, and she couldn’t go left because there was a structure there and she couldn’t move right because there was a structure there as well.
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Exactly. Both do occur. I have definitely seen killers refused to hit someone body blocking effectively to the point that they actually lost more distance than if the killer would just taken the health state for no reason other than trying to damage the tunnelled survivor.
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I always regret when I don't tunnel. It never turns out well.
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I do get that and I would put that on Feng rather than Ada. But after the hit Ada definitely had choices to avoid me choosing her in chase. Pre-dropping the pallet would have been enough to dissuade me from continuing. Or she could have used the speed boost to get in front of Feng pushing the chase onto her. Both give up some of the survivor resources but no more so than if Ada wasn't unhooked in the first place since the unhook essentially reset the chase.
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I also could be wrong but during the time and looking back on the clip it felt like Ada was walking until hit not running. Its hard to tell but Fengs lead does increase a bit despite Ada having 10% haste.
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Tunneling is super effective against survivors.
the only way to counter it is if your SWF team coordinates body blocks while still applying pressure to gens.
If it's a Solo Queue game then everyone dies. BHVR has made is VERY VERY clear they do not want people playing survivor without friends, and they will punish you horribly for it. honestly if you're looking to play something by yourself you're better off playing killer or some other game that doesn't discourage it. there are no plans for improving solo queue, it's literally been 6 years and they haven't even tried to improved it.
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This. There was no time for Ada to move out of the way. That video doesn't look like any attempt was made to go around Ada for the hit on Feng. Not only did Ada only make 2 steps before she was hit but killer went around hook to hit Ada once unhook finished instead of Feng. Since she was hit so quickly she also was already in the dream world by time she would've noticed that pallet so wouldn't have known if it was real or fake.
The Feng shouldn't have unhooked with the killer right there and 2 healthy survivors still in the match - she should've lead the killer away or at the very least put herself between the killer and Ada if she's going to make plays like that. There's no way though the killer wasn't going to tunnel Ada - they made sure to hit Ada and the instant excitement of "now you don't have dead hard." If you are looking forward to no Dead Hard you aren't giving up that opportunity because a pallet was dropped or to go after a healthy survivor with a flashlight nearby. Not saying it's wrong - devs really haven't done anything to stop tunneling and it is efficient if you want kills quickly - but Ada didn't do anything to encourage getting tunneled.
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SBTFL is a good excuse for tunneling 😏
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You made the choice yet blame the survivors. Clip doesn't even prove you "right".
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She was awake. You can see it in the HUD that she didnt fall asleep from that hit, no laurels. You have a buffer time from getting off the hook.
I agree that Feng made the bigger mistake. But Ada could have easily avoided by literally going in front of the Feng. She 100% had the ability. She leaves the hook walking until she gets hit and then goes to the only unsafe tile in the area.
I believe I said " Ya know what thats actually fine now you dont have dead hard" as in not who I was going to go for but this will work.
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You can see where she actually gets control of her character, she didn't have time to move more than 2 steps before you hit her and that's why Feng made that distance. You even went around the side during the unhook to hit Ada not Feng. There was no chance given to Ada to move out of the way for you to go after Feng. There are times when a recently unhooked survivor blocks a killer from hitting the unhooker and is asking to be tunneled but this wasn't one of those times.
You chose not to go after Feng and that's fine - like I said Devs haven't done anything to really discourage tunneling and it is efficient to get kills - but it's not Ada's fault you tunneled her. Feng and you are the reason Ada was tunneled.
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I’d make the choice too. I’m not going to always go out of my way to purposefully give myself a disadvantage because a survivor or survivors plays poorly.
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Honestly, this looks like post-hoc justification.
You are absolutely correct that survivors can encourage tunneling but this clip does not show it. Ada is literally unhooked and able to move at the 0:34 mark and you are swinging at the 0:35 mark. I know killer time can get really hazy when you are in the middle of the action and juggling so many decisions in your head but watch that clip back and tell me that Ada had time to do literally anything. Even her "greeding" the pallet doesn't make sense. Her options were to stay at an, at best, semi-safe pallet or try to make distance and she panicked when she realized she had nothing in that area after immediately getting hit after being unhooked.
If you want to tunnel, you can do it. I won't even say I wouldn't do the same thing in your shoes (especially as it wasn't even death hook), but to try to use this as some case in point about how survivors deserve to be tunneled even when the benevolent killer goes SO far out of their way to avoid it is weird and cringey.
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There was a rock to Ada's right, the outer wall to her left, Feng in front, and you behind. She either runs in the same direction as Feng or she runs into you. You were out of line of sight when approaching the hook, neither probably knew which side you were coming from. Watching the clip, I don't feel like Ada even had time to do or plan anything. She didn't even have time to move after being unhooked before she was hit, and the direction she ran was really the only safe direction she could have gone. I don't care if people want to tunnel, but I think you're looking a bit deep into a situation where the survivors were acting purely on instinct.
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As other commenters have pointed out, you decided to hit and then tunnel Ada before she had any agency in doing anything. And in almost any situation where you are physically able to avoid chasing the recently unhooked survivor but choose to do so anyway, you're tunneling, and your actions are not "on" any survivor. There may be cases where survivors enable you to do so, or make it easy for you to do so, but it's ultimately your choice to continue pursuing them. If you want to tunnel to win, or for whatever other reason, just do it, but don't act like it's the survivor's fault you want to play in that manner.
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Feng farmed Ada for a free health state. Feng should have been injured at that point in chase. Hitting Ada literally does nothing for me after her unhook unless she goes down. I would actually lose pressure because she is no longer on the hook. So going after Feng would be rewarding her for farming Ada. Especially given that Ada still had 30 seconds she could sit on the hook. Like I do put most of this on Feng decision to unhook. She shouldn't have. She is banking on the killers sympathy to make a poor choice to turn her choice from very bad to amazing double chase time.
As for Ada, maybe I am overthinking her actions assuming that shes trying to greed resources hoping for me to let her go and going after Feng making which again changes Fengs action from being a really poor choice to an amazing chase reset. I still say Ada's best move was to run in front of Feng both because the main building would have been there and because it would have put Feng between us. Her second best move would have been predropping that pallet to add distance. However the craziness of the chase could have clouded these thoughts.
Regardless of Ada's motivations I stand by that Feng farming Ada is the reason main Ada got tunneled. The situation I as the killer was in was do a HUGE throw in wasting the past 45 seconds just to reset a chase and lose the pressure of the hooked survivor, or go after Ada because of Feng's misstep. Like I think that the base kit endurance is great for intentional camping and tunneling but in a case like this I would have previously had the option to slug at the unhook, which is essentially her not getting unhooked, and start a chase with Feng after 2.5 seconds as opposed to 14. I don't get why this onus isn't on the Feng mainly and worsely if killers do do the throw tactic to be nice it encourages Fengs type of gameplay because she would have literally gotten a free unhook with killer chase reset for 12 seconds of Ada mending.
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At the end it's just both sides playing their objectives. And the higher your MMR is, the more efficient you NEED to play if you want to win.
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In my opinion its often the survivors, who makes me tunnel them, if i decide to tunnel. There are some points, who influence my decision to tunnel:
- A survivor is breaking my hooks. I cant afford to have a survivor in game, who is sabotaging my objective, so i need this one to be out of the game, so i can make sure to get the hook after a down.
- Bodyblocking survivors, after they got unhooked. I get it, why they are bodyblocking, but if they do it, they dont have to be mad, if i start to hunt them down. I decided to go for the healthy survivor, but the fresh unhooked one blocks may way to hit him. So im gonna wait for endurance to run out or hit the fresh unhooked one, triggering endurance. After that i have two options: First, i chase the healthy one, who got even further away after my hit and still needs two hits to get downed or second, i go for the injured one, who needs to mend and is down after one hit.
Of course there are some games, where i tunnel, because i notice the team being efficient, to slow the gens down, but most of the time i do it because the mentioned reasons.
And i have to admit, although i dont like to tunnel a survivor, i dont feel bad for it. The survivors barely always say the killer should care about the survivors having fun. Sry, but when do survivors care about the killers fun? They rush gens and tunnel gens without thinking about the fun of a killer.
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When i was killer, and survivors rushed gens, it forced me to rush kills.
- I know some might say, "i was not rushing gens and got tunneld anyway" - well, ok cool. There still are a difference, when gens get rushed you feel that you HAVE to rush kills to avoid leaving the match with 0 kills (there are exceptions like Billy, Nurse, Wesker and Blight just to mention some, they are fast moving killers). I tried to play fair, and not to tunnel, unless people were openly provoking. (eg. Tbagging after each pallet or spamming fast vaults to annoy me with the loud bang sound, when i was in a chase).
I think the game have some things that needs a rework before it will be better.
If the game gets balanced around the fast killers, the slow ones might need to tunnel to keep up.
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I mean, it's your choice to tunnel or not. No idea why you need to create some justification for it. You decided to hit Ada and chase her. At the end of the day, it is a strategy if you want to win.
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I am sorry but Ada is the victim here. You hate crime her by tunneling, please apologize to her asap and to the whole community of survivors for this disgusting gameplay.
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I couldn't have said this any better myself.
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Yeah, sometimes you just happen to tunnel someone because the person sucks at not being spotted and the other three dont.
For me tunneling is when a Killer targets the same Survivor over and over AND has intent on doing it, if it happens by chance or because the Survivor is very bad I wouldnt call it tunneling.
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I feel like that's the biggest cause of not-Tunnelling: you head back towards the hook, the unhooker has gone to ground, and then see the recently hooked Survivor booking it across the map. Like, unless things are going really well, I'm not going to sit around and let everyone reset when there's a chase to do.
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I watched your footage, and disagree to an extent. For me, you clearly returned with the intent of tunneling, maybe since the moment you saw Feng leading you back to the hook.
We can see Ada got in the way, but I honestly cannot see you trying to go around. She was more or less sandwiches by you and the feng, a hill on her left. The only way for her to not get into the way would have been to run away left imidiately after the unhook (from your pov). But how should she now beforehand where you and the feng would run to (assuming no swf)? If anything, the clip shows Ada trying to get away headlessly and some bad coordination between her and feng. She might still have tried to block on purpose, but the video does not really support that claim, imo.
About Feng, I agree that she enabled this tunneling by her actions. She shouldn't have run to the rescue when being chased and could have protected Ada better / taken the aggro. Still, there might not have been much for her to do after the unhook, with Ada running in a totally wrong / unexpected direction.
So all in all, for me both you and feng are "responsible" for the tunneling. It's not like you were forced to, as when the rescued survivor stands in a doorway or something to block for the rescuer. You could have run around the stones the other way and likely hit Feng after the unhook. You could have followed Feng after hitting into Adas endurance. But you choose the easier target, which is a perfectly valid decision. But not "enforced" by the survivors action, imo.
Edit:
I'm not denying the point you want to make, that survivors may actually create such tunneling situations by themselves, and then cry about it afterwards. I'm just thinking your video is not the best example for portraying this. The actions esp. of Ada leave too much room for interpretation, imo its not discernable if that was voluntarily or by accident.
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I don't see how I returned with the intent of tunneling. So after reviewing the clip like 30 times I am noticing that Jane existed and failed on the same skill check on the same gen, but due to the way that scratch marks work the only set I saw was Feng's. I honestly wasn't expecting her to do the unhook there because Ada had SO much time on stage 1 left and Reassurance is a thing which would explain her running to the hook. I did expect her to wrap around the rock which is why I went to cut her off. But the end positioning of Feng and myself had Feng placing Ada in between us.
Had I been able to get the hit on Feng during the unhook instead of being blocked by Ada I would have had a different choice, where its even between Feng and Ada, with either one being a one hit chase, assuming Feng didn't have borrowed time because it would take me more than 10 seconds to get Ada. Like it would still be a slightly stronger strategic decision to go after Ada to place her on death hook, but I would have the same in moment pressure either way, 1 person injured one in chase. My side wouldn't have severely punished for being nice during Feng's misstep, or calculated play vying for sympathy.
I will concede my comments on Ada's play were putting speculation on intent. I am fine as to say even that she is the victim here. However I would also state that its due to Feng's actions as survivor. Her actions dictated the choice. She effectively removed the pressure I had on survivors and reset her own chase at the risk of Ada being tunneled as the only good choice the killer could make. I see people placing the ownership of tunneling solely on the killer not recognizing survivors impact and agency with it. I like this clip because Feng made a choice to put me in the position where I have to choose between losing 100% of the pressure I have created or down the Ada. However despite that action people will still blame the killer for tunneling.
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It all comes down to the Feng going for the unhook... if she didn't then there would be no reason for this post (sorry for being blunt)
Also getting the Hit on Ada does something... she can't ignore the Deep Wound status effect and it prevents the bodyblocking from happening (not saying that was her plan but anyway)
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No I 100% agree that its the Feng. My main point is that I too often here survivors blame the killer for tunneling when plays like this happen where the survivor side intentionally puts the killer in a position where there is no other good alternative.
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dont feel bad at all that you "tunneled"
Nowhere in the rules is it stated that you cant be hooked 2x in a row in an elimination game.
people just get mad because they feel entitled to escaping or not being the first person out.
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You could have hit Feng there. You had enough time to go from Feng's side and get a free hit as she finished the unhook animation (If you went from the side you did in the video but aimed for Feng, Ada could have chosen to block or moved, we'll never know). I don't think Feng's unhook was amazing either, but unless Feng told you herself in endgame chat that she was banking on you being nice, this could just as well be her just... Unhooking. Simple as that. Maybe she has a daily or archive. Maybe she knew where her teammates were, and thought that running for the save after failing the oppression skill check was the best play. We can't say. But it is disingenuous to assert that Feng made that play hoping you would play nice, and that it is in turn Feng's fault you decided to go after Ada despite being able to get a free hit on Feng as the unhook completed. (Side note: you don't need an excuse to tunnel, you're welcome to do so whenever, you bought the game play it how you want. Just don't blame others for how you choose to play.)
When it comes to Ada, she is clearly not very experienced at the game, she ran past multiple pallets she could have known were real and was trying to circle around a random object as you downed her. I would definitely not attribute that to "greeding resources" when she could barely hold a straight line - you can see her pathing losing her distance as she passes one pallet by a stone wall. Her best play was probably to take the hit then hold W to either shack side or the jungle gym by main, depending on where her teammates are doing gens. But expecting her to play a chase optimally (or suggesting she predrops a pallet!) to avoid getting tunneled is unfair to her, I think moreso when her chase after the unhook clearly indicates she's newer or has less experience.
As for Feng "farming", I don't think what she did was farming. If the Ada was more experienced, that unhook and hit would have been fine. You said so yourself that if Ada predropped a pallet that you would have been dissuaded from chasing her, her position even after that hit was still decently strong. And you could have hit Feng as she unhooked, so it wasn't the safest unhook ever, but I don't have the context of the match to tell you that that was necessarily a good or bad play. What was a bad play from Feng was not taking the hit and instead clicking at you lol. I agree that the play you made was optimal, and it would not have been optimal to go for Feng, but it being the optimal play doesn't make it Feng or Ada's "fault" you chose to play that way. I don't think it's fair to expect either of them to know your mindset of wanting to play optimally and try to offer you a free hit and entice chase / try to become too hard to tunnel respectively. Feng saved her teammate, Ada tried to run away. You chose to capitalize on their mistakes. No one's "fault", even if misplays were made.
As a side note, did you get any bloodwarden/black box or agi/mad grit value that game? I think your build looks pretty fun, wish I saw more builds like that.
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If I would have followed Feng directly I could have hit her but I didnt expect her to unhook because of how unsafe it was. I could see a reassurance play but that also would be unnecessary if she just didnt run to the hook. But since I went to cut her off and she didnt wrap around for the unhook there was no way for me to get the hit on Feng with Ada in between us. And although its a quick choice to hit Ada it felt in the moment when she walked, not ran, away from rock towards the exit gate not the map, that she was doing so to bodyblock and protect Feng.
So checking end game Ada was Prestige 88 so I think she's got the hours. I personally think, and could be wrong, Ada thought I would take the Borrowed time hit then go for Feng, the survivors rulebook way. This would make sense as I didn't camp or tunnel the Vittorio when he was hooked and I didn't camp her but was brought there. This would make her run past the pallet, because why waste ,it and was caught off guard when I kept after her instead of the Feng.
As for your blood warden/black box question. I did not get any value that game because it ended at 2 gens. But I did have a different game later where I had only 5 hooks on three different survivors when the last gen was complete and it turned into a 12 hook 4k with maxed out bloodpoints in all categories (which is super hard because you need I wanna say 3 endgame collapse death hooks in addition to 12 hooks) I actually got black box value on both exit gates.
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Of course it's sometimes on the survivor.
The number of times a survivor tried to body-block after an unhook, or jumped straight on a gen instead of healing (and then was found by the killer) is staggering.
As far as I'm concerned, I punish these moves religiously.
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Tunneling is largely on the game design. What do you get for hooking three survivors one time? You get nothing. What do you get for hooking one survivor three times? Gen speeds are permanently reduced by 25% of their potential maximum.
Imagine one simple base kit change: If you hook a survivor that was not the last survivor hooked then all survivor actions (healing, generators, totems, doors, etc) are reduced by 4% per hook.
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I perfectly understand the implications. I'm not afraid of tunnelling nor of camping. I just chose to adapt to my opponents (same when I play survivor). Tunnelling may be efficient but it's not the most interesting play (a bit like gen-rushing, gens-before-friends, ...). However, I try to only use tunnelling to tip the scales when required.
That base kit change seems like an idea in the right direction.
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Most survivors get mad when they rush generators first and then someone gets tunneled. Gens before friends means tunneling is the only viable response. If the survivors rush their objective they have no room to be upset if the killer does the same.
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This actually could be a cool dying light rework. When you hook a survivor they become the obsession and then getting a stack every time you hook a non-obsession.
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That sounds a bit counter-intuitive, obsession-wise.
Maybe when you hook the obsession, another one becomes it (along with other incentives)
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Yeah, if you don't actually try to get away after being unhooked, or just stay in the killer's face after being unhooked, you're not being tunneled, you're being an idiot.
There's this insane notion among many that once they're unhooked, they should have total immunity until someone else is hooked, regardless of what they do, and if they aren't afforded it, the killer is at fault.
It's absurd.
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Obviously.
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I feel like its no more counter-intuitive as STBFL. You're killing all of their little friends. However it would make all of Michaels perks synergize really well for a non-tunnel build as youre only going to lose STBFL stacks if you attack the person last unhooked which might be a little too stronk.
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Maybe, my ideas are a bit fuzzy after 23:00.
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