Is wraith to strong for the current meta?
With the gen kick perks like call of brine overcharge eruption as well as hit and run a lot of my matches against him are actually very difficult. Since most of my swf doesn't play the game anymore most of my games are solo games. His movement speed and just general map control is very good when combined with the perks right now. And his addons are pretty amazing as well. It's good to see him again just not 5 games in a row with the same build. Now i don't care if they readjust him or the perks. Since those perks are just the meta on most killers right now. He just abuses them even more. But what do you think of his placement with the current meta?
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Wraith, too strong? Really?
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"abusing perks"
lol
Can't win playing solo instead of SWF ? Sounds like a skill issue. Your MMR will adjust.
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Any killer with those perks are gonna have a much easier time, not just Wraith.
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Not as strong as the current healing meta from survivors, so its all good.
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Wraith?
Wraith?
Ahahaha...no.
Wraith is one of the most painful killers to play against people who know what they are doing. Just prepare to move to safety the second you hear his murmuring, he's basically an M1 killer.
You can also melt him with flashlights.
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wraith is fine. He is a solid killer thats in a good place. killers dont all need to be easy to beat. some are allowed to be dangerous
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If you were talking about wraith after he got buffed last year before he got nerfed- then this post might make sense. Wraith in the current meta is kind of a joke vs good players.
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He is pretty strong but those perks itself are more problem. Eruption could use nerf and overcharge skill check is still pretty hard to hit with controller and it's too easy with mouse. Wraith is underrated by many he has good mobility which allows good map control and gen defence. Also you can get people injured pretty fast with him. Good swf are problem for him but they are for any killer who is not decent nurse or blight. For me wraith is most consistent killer to get 4K.
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Wraith is fun in that he's an amazing counter to shift W gameplay, especially with Shadow Dance, and so I guess he's too strong compared to the average gameplay.
But know where he isn't strong? Looping. Just go back to 2018/2019 gameplay and he'll crumble.
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Those gen-kicking perks are too strong, not Wraith. Wraith is just really good at taking advantage of them, but they’re too strong on every killer especially when combined.
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I main wraith, and have done so for quite some time.
He is definitely not too strong, but he is also not as weak as some make him out to be.
He is strong enough to do well in most situations if you play him right.
His main weakness is that he is extremely addon dependant. With his good combinations he can be a real threat, but using with his worse addons makes him almost useless in a lot of scenarios.
As far as perks go, I did try those shiny revamped kick meta perks, along with shadow dance and serpent and found that I do better with my normal chase heavy perks than I do with kick perks, so in my humble opinion, those perks don't really factor that much in how strong wraith can be.
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I guess you could make that arguement in low MMR where stealth killers are disproportionately successful , but he is an F-tier trash killer when survivors know what they are doing, so I can't agree in general.
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No they aren't.
Or rather, they are - but only according to that weird forum hive mind that seems to automatically generate complaint threads about whatever the current killer meta is.
For the longest time, it was Ruin.
Then it was Pain Resonance/DMS.
Both got nerfed, now it's Eruption/CoB.
Once that gets nerfed, we'll go back to PR/DMS complaint threads, because it really does boil down to 'these were the perks the killer who beat me was using, therefore OP'.
I swear, if all the kicky perks get nerfed, and PR gets nerfed, and Deadlock gets nerfed, we'll find ourselves in a world where there are 4 complaint threads about Jolt on the front page.
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Imagine how those people would feel playing back in 2017 with omniblink Nurse, insta kill Moris (no hook required) and the old Ruin that required perfect skillchecks to continue with normal repair speed.
It really looks like people ran out of things to complain about.
Wraith being OP... i can´t even...
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Wraith is pretty balanced. And his base perks are so, SO bad (Shadowborn being the only good enough one, though it's used mostly on other killers as a support perk).
I actually think, from playing him a little bit, that his speed boost coming out of stealth could use a little buff.
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Even when Wraith was at his strongest he was fine. What isn't fine are the perks mentioned (Eruption being the main culprit). They give wins to killers who perhaps didn't deserve to win the game due to how oppressive they are.
Wraith is criminally underrated. It is becoming more and more apparent you don't actually understand the game as well as you think you do. And please stop saying Eruption is fine. It is as foolish a thing to say as if you had said old moris and keys were fine.
Sort of like posters pretending mass D/C's have been the game's biggest issue rather than its real problems.
Not even remotely true. Like, at all.
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I'm rather tired of posters who don't know what they are talking about being confidently incorrect. Like, if you aren't sure then just don't say anything. Why make things up?
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And which would be the real problem instead?
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From all killers you have to make a wraith op thread? Dafuq? He is an M1 killer. If he manages ho hold a 3 gen that's a skill issue since ho only has his m1 to hit you. Here are some tips against him if that helps:
- Identify a 3-gen and prioritize breaking it.
- Wraith is an M1 killer so he cant play around loops or windows. Since he is fast while being cloaked a lot of them are attempting to bodyblock the pallets or windows so you can't vault them. Try to block him from overtaking you and if he did overtake you just leave the loop and move to the next.
- A lot of wratihs will fake uncloaking so you drop the pallet. Identify his playstyle and adjust.
- If you face Wraith so often bring flashlights/flashbangs they are his hard counter while cloaked.
- Staying healed against him.
Those tips should be enough against the average Wraith killer.
He is weak and if he can't down anyone because the team plays it safe he will lose eventually
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The ability for one side to choose to have a decided advantage before the game even begins (OP killer with best addons, strong swf team with map offering, 4 toolboxes/medkits, etc).
Maps (mostly favor survivor, but some configurations favor killer too)
MMR being absolutely terrible. I have over 6k hours and I was recently matched with someone who went down in under a minute on an outside map to a Myers who hadn't yet powered up to stage 2 (was not grabbed off a gen).
Hackers (the asian server is absolutely littered with hackers.)
Maybe I'm missing another big one, but the reasons listed above certainly contribute to any D/C's that may happen.
No one has fun in games that are already all but decided before they begin. I don't D/C unless I meet a definite hacker, but I don't completely blame players who do. The game, even after all these years, is in such a sorry state.
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I started in 2019, I think (or was it 2020? Pyramid Head was just about to release) and the game was a mess then on both sides.
- Prenerf DS acting as basically an extra life.
- Every map having 2 or 3 spots where you can't pick up survivors, and they always go down there deliberately.
- OoO in every premade.
- RBMM with the monthly reset was absolutely horrible as a new player, especially a new killer.
- Old Iri head Huntress addon.
- Old Haddonfield with the old infinite.
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Oh, boy, where do I start here?
- Eruption isn't old moris and keys, which I've never defended.
- Eruption is strong against solos, but completely fine against SWFs. And this game cannot be balanced around solo play.
- Let's be honest here though. BHVR nerfs Eruption due to the forum QQ, as they always seem to with killer perks. Do you think that this stops the complaining, or will people just move on to whatever the new meta killer perk becomes? We both know the answer to that.
- Mass DCs/suicides/AFKs are absolutely the biggest problem in the game - they cause a ton of losses that should not have happened and inflate kill rates to an insane level. I run weird perks, play weird killers and generally bring flans. I don't tunnel or camp outside of EOGC. I still see a suicide or a DC in...honestly, maybe 30%+ of my games. How is that not a problem?
- Wraith is a 'C' tier killer. He's incredible at stomping newer players, but experienced teams can run rings around him. With the right flashlight addons, you can burn him before he decloaks.
- He's not Trapper or Knight levels of bad, but he's still very mediocre.
- Yes. But that's been the game since it's inception, and probably not something you can change. Like...how would you even fix that? Let survivors see killer perks/offerings and vice versa?
- Maps...sure? But I'd say that for every time I lose because I got sent to Badham, I win 3 games because the first person I downed either suicides, goes AFK or DCs.
- MMR will never be perfect, but it's a million times better than RBMM. Yes, there are some weird matches here and there - but these tend to be a product of a long queue time or lobby dodges.
- Dodge any 'full' lobbies you get dropped into, or lobbies where someone leaves and you'll see what I mean.
- MMR was a little bit more consistent before the changes, but people were complaining about queue times.
- Again, most of the time you can't blame DCs on anything besides players sulking and being BM. Again, I'm probably the nicest, fairest killer you'll run into all day, and I still get DCs, AFKs and suicides out the wazoo. This is a matter of there being either only really petty penalties or none at all for quitting and spoiling the game.
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Eruption is the biggest issue in the game right now, and it isn't even close.
D/C's do not count towards kill rate. Suicides are very rare in my games, with AFK's being almost nonexistant. Maybe it is a region thing, but I don't even think that is true. I watch streams from other regions too and they rarely happen.
You would fix the extreme imbalance by nerfing the things that are too strong (top killers with best addons, SWF ability to stack perks and addons) and go from there. Also, buffing things that are too weak (weakest killers and solo queue). There doesn't need to be such a huge gap between the best and the worst. I hate facing a killer who I am just as good as, and yet having absolutely no chance to escape because that killer chose Nurse with her best addons and I am solo. I would say the same the other way around, too, but I don't play SWF.
Again, sounds like a region thing. D/c's, AFK's, Suicides are such a nonissue on the asian server. If they are a huge issue on your server, I'm sorry.
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Oh you missed quite some fun. My point is, that things were really, really strong back then. Seing people complain about small things seems just... meh.
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Oh i agree on this. Loadouts should be fixed before clicking ready to search for a match. Killers can´t switch, because the mmr takes each killers skill into account (supposedly). So why not lock things for both sides and take addons/items/offerings into account for the mmr. Give everything a set value (multiply it when in SWF) and match it accordingly.
So sweat builds go against sweat killers and vice versa.
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DCs are a symptom of bigger core problems that DbD has and that's why DC penalties are pretty light compared to other games.
Yes DCs would still happen if those core issues were addressed but they would happen less often and then could be punished more harshly.
Bloodwebs taking so damn long is even a contributing factor to the DC rate since players can just spend bloodpoints to wait out the DC penalty, time they have to waste anyway.
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Sure let’s nerf wraith, why not. Then maybe take a swing at Trapper, it’s really unfair that he can defend an area, how unfun boring no counterplay nerf please. Who’s next?
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Pre-nerf Ruin was so much healthier than the current meta. Ruin only gave you as much pressure as you were able to apply yourself through good killer play. It didn’t do much of anything if survivors weren’t forced to leave gens. Meanwhile with Eruption I can commit to some horrible chase and still win games because downing someone eventually is going to give me 9 seconds of regression per kicked gen plus 25 seconds of survivors not being able to progress the game. It disproportionately affects solo players more and has way too high reward for how easy it is to use.
Really though, I just want the game to be less perk-reliant on both sides. The power level of 3 or 4 slowdowns in a build is ridiculous. Fix that, and address all the strong gen-rushing perks and toolboxes too. I’m not saying BNPs and commodious toolboxes are okay either, because they’re not. It sucks being a survivor against multiple slowdown perks with a chill build, but it also sucks being a killer with a chill build and facing sweats who possibly sent you to a bad map too. So both sides are encouraged to bring better tools, not because they want to, but because they feel it necessary to keep up. And that cycle is unhealthy for the game.
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I completely disagree, because I've played a lot of multiplayer games over the years and any game that doesn't have pretty severe penalties for quitting is completely ruined by them.
I mean, off the top of my head:
- WoW's dungeon finder being almost impossible to do anything on because the second you encountered anything even slightly challenging, or someone came in without being massively overgeared for the instance, you'd have someone quit.
- League of Legends, before they added LeaverBuster.
- Any Starcraft 2 custom multiplayer map inevitably has to add some sort of makeup mechanic for quitters, because...every single game.
I could go on, but basically...Google any team based multiplayer game, and it either has penalties for quitters or massive problems with quitters.
I don't accept that people who DC/suicide/AFK are doing it because there's something wrong with the game. Outside of rare hacking/hostage situations, DCs are entirely because people will always do this if there's nothing to stop them.
Also - blaming bloodweb times for DCs is absolutely bizarre.
That's not really what I'm talking about. Be it healthier or not healthier, there was at least one QQ thread about Ruin on the front page at any given time.
Is Eruption strong? Sure. But things can be strong, and it's pretty damned unfair to nerf every killer perk that is slightly above average while letting Dead Hard rule the game for years and only nerfing survivor perks when they are literally game-breaking.
I'm sick and tired of stuff being nerfed because of the vanishingly small minority of players that complain incessantly on the forums. None of the threads are even really feedback or suggestions, they are mostly 'I lost to this, so nerf it into the ground'.
Yes, as you can probably tell, this gets on my nerves. Because nerfing that perk doesn't end it - it just shifts it to the next most commonly used killer perk.
Your next bit would be fine, if *and only if* BHVR balanced killer perks and survivor perks the same. The game being less perk reliant would be an interesting direction, but it would also probably make the game a lot blander.
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Wraith is okay but the problem is the Eruption based full slowdown build meta we currently have. It punishes solo survivors and makes matches very difficult as there is no counter to Eruption, so when you stack it with multiple slowdowns on top of that... not fun.
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You are welcome to your opinion.
When I said "if those core issues were addressed [DCs] would happen less often" I consider it a statement of fact, not opinion.
For one, DbD is coded so poorly that unintentional DCs happen far more often than they should.
I am not even going to elaborate further than that because encouraging negative behavior like DCing is against forum rules and I think some of my points could be interpreted as breaking that rule.
To address your defense of Eruption, it isn't just a problem that Eruption is strong. It's a problem that Eruption got buffed and other slowdown perks got overnerfed. It's that Eruption is top of the meta and also that Pop and Ruin got dumpstered. If killers want to use the best slowdowns they are forced into about 4 different options which is awful for match variety and leads to more complaints because players are seeing Eruption every other game now.
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We've come to a point where we're calling wraith op
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Well yes. Letting survivors win more would reduce DCs by reducing losing games, but that would be hardly fair to killers. Why punish killers for survivors behaving badly?
And no, it's not 'code' and it's not 'Eruption'. Want to know how I know?
I play a lot of DbD. I play maybe 60/40 killer/survivor these days.
On killer, I generally run pretty fun, memey builds, and occasionally switch to something nastier if I'm against an SWF or just a tough looking team. I also bring flans on about 50% of my killers.
I get a DC, suicide or AFK in about a third of my games. That's about the best case scenario - it can be much worse, but seldom much better.
The funny thing - those quitters happen whether I'm playing soft or hard, bring flans or no flans. They'll happen whether I'm playing Artist, Hag or Wraith.
Because it has nothing to do with what I bring - the second it turns out that it might be a loss, or just a difficult game - boom, quitters.
Games with zero DCs? Games I'm losing.
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I get where you are coming from. Wraith with his good Mobility can use those Perks. On top he has the Iridescent All-Seeing, which makes it easy to identify which Gens to kick. And 3 Gens are even easier to create and defend with this.
But the problem are the Perks and not Wraith. If you would nerf Wraith to the ground, you would just have a lot of upset Wraith-players who are not even using those Perks. But you will have 29 other Killers who still use the currently horrible Killer-Meta.
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I'm sorry were you replying to me? Because you didn't actually respond to anything in my post that you quoted.
I said "reduce" not "eliminate." You do know the difference, yes?
Anyway back to the topic at hand, Wraith is fine.
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Yeah, I did. But okay, let me try again.
In a nutshell - people don't quit games because there's some balance issue or a specific perk being used. People quit because they're losing the game, and because there is nothing to stop them.
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You don't know or speak for everyone. And not everyone is the same. People DC for different reasons.
Not every DC is a ragequit. They can be resignations.
And believe it or not, unintentional DCs do happen.
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Ragequit and resignation are a semantic hair apart, and both have the exact same effect on the game. If there was a 'concede' button...firstly, that would be fantastic, and secondly that would be a resignation. Outside of hostage situations, when you click 'ready', you're agreeing to play the match out. Because not doing so basically ruins the game for 4 other people.
All I can say is this much.
I almost never see a single quitter in games where I, as the killer, am losing.
I almost never see a quitter in games where I, as a survivor, am winning.
This also holds true of the games I see streamers playing.
Why do you think that is?
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Without the 'concede' option, ragequit and resignation are not a semantic hair apart. A player can get see an unwinnable situation (like a 3gen vs a Knight with CoB, Eruption and Overcharge) and can make a reasonable decision to DC, use the penalty time to spend bloodpoints and move on to hopefully a more fun match. But to you it appears to be a ragequit and you assume most or all of DCs are emotional decisions.
"I almost never see a single quitter in games where I, as the killer, am losing. I almost never see a quitter in games where I, as a survivor, am winning."
Well I have seen DCs in those situations. Had a couple yesterday. It was definitely odd. One was halfway through a game where I was getting destroyed as a Doc.
Anyway this particular discussion and thread derailment with you has run its course. o/
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Fair enough.
But I will also say that there's a world of difference between quitting out of a hostage situation and the standard suiciding on your first hook because the killer has 2 hooks at 4 gens.
I've seen a couple of likely actual DCs, but again, these are rare.
Most of the time, it's a DC while being carried or suiciding on the first hook. Generally by the first person hooked.
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Except Eruption is not just “slightly above average”, nor would I call the people wanting Eruption to be changed a minority.
Dead Hard never should have existed in its old form for as long as it did. It still amazes me that it was left in the game for that long. But that prior mistake doesn’t justify doing the same with other overpowered perks, that’s just a logical fallacy.
As for the last part, there is too much of a gap between the strongest and weakest tools. Some categories of perks are simply stronger and generally more favored because of what those perks do, regardless of their numbers or actual strength (as long as the effect isn’t so weak it’s nearly useless). We can buff bad perks on both sides to introduce more viable options for players (and they should), but buffing some of those perks up to the level of some of the stronger perks we have is nearly impossible without reworking/adding brand new effects to those perks and/or making them overtuned.
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Wraith is quite strong currently, but I'm not seeing a good reason to change nor nerf him. Coms and Spine Chill negate his power. He's not overpicked and there is a learning curve of how pro wraiths play. Rather play a good Wraith than say a good Blight.
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I'm not trying to make a logical point though.
I'm pointing out why the difference in balance philosophy between killer and survivor perks doesn't sit well with me - it does seem like when a killer perk rises up in the meta, it gets smacked down to complete uselessness pretty fast (see: Thana) but when the same thing happens to a survivor perk, even if it's really strong, it'll be a 'wait and see' approach and if it is nerfed, it'll be done gradually and incrementally to ensure that the perk remains viable (CoH, Dead Hard).
The only time it'll get the Thana treatment is when it's literally breaking the game (Boil Over).
Just...yeah. Doesn't sit right with me.
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